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UAW's worst nightmare..Ford plant in Brazil

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UAW's worst nightmare..Ford plant in Brazil

Old 12-04-2008, 09:22 PM
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Default UAW's worst nightmare..Ford plant in Brazil

watch this video and see why the big 3 can not make a profit in the US with the UAW/organized labor strangling it....this should be mandatory watching for every congressman that votes to bailout them out with taxpayer money.


http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189
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Old 12-05-2008, 04:20 AM
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Default Re: UAW's worst nightmare..Ford plant in Brazil

While I know the Brazilian workers at this plant make more than this, the minimum wage in Brazil is about $100/month.
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Old 12-05-2008, 04:40 AM
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Default Re: UAW's worst nightmare..Ford plant in Brazil

That filmaker should be taken out and shot for mis representation of facts!

Where the hell is the film of the auto workers sleeping on their workbenches. Did he edit that out?

In the 2 months that I spent at a Ford Plant, they all slept during the day on their benches, they all carried a newspaper in their backpocket for when the work started, so they could take their GI Sh!T$. And when they weren't doing either of these, they were "wondering" the grounds, looking for union violations (yeah we got some of those), they caught my excavator operator moving a couple of pieces of lumber out of the road he wanted to travel, Bam, Violation. An extra days pay for the stool pigeon!

Where was that reporting? Hmmm, maybe in Brazil, they remember what its like to work for a living.

Don't get me started.

Too late
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Old 12-05-2008, 08:14 AM
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Default Re: UAW's worst nightmare..Ford plant in Brazil

I've done roof inspections on a GM Fisher Body assembly plant in Pa. While walking the roof with the facilities manager we found no less than 6 people hiding and sleeping. When discovered they would get up and run into the plant. The facilities manger said he can't do anything about it because it is out of his jurisdiction. This plant is now shut down!
I also know of a tenured employee at the Lordstown plant that made no qualms about how they take turns each night in the "pit" to sleep. They had a secret pit set up like an apt. with cable and kitchen. Every fourth night it was there turn to hide while their co-workers covered for them.
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Old 12-05-2008, 09:37 AM
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Default Re: UAW's worst nightmare..Ford plant in Brazil

senergy - 12/5/2008 11:14 AM

I've done roof inspections on a GM Fisher Body assembly plant in Pa. While walking the roof with the facilities manager we found no less than 6 people hiding and sleeping. When discovered they would get up and run into the plant. The facilities manger said he can't do anything about it because it is out of his jurisdiction. This plant is now shut down!
I also know of a tenured employee at the Lordstown plant that made no qualms about how they take turns each night in the "pit" to sleep. They had a secret pit set up like an apt. with cable and kitchen. Every fourth night it was there turn to hide while their co-workers covered for them.

Once the relationship between a pool of labor and the company becomes adversarial through labor negotiations, then no matter how generous the contract, the mindset will inevitably be one where the employees will exploit every opportunity to do less and get more. It is just human nature. For both to succeed requires collaboration and common goals - it's basic game theory.

The wage rate gaps are only part of the handicap that the U.S. auto industry is facing. The only solution is for the unions to get "scared straight".
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Old 12-05-2008, 09:41 AM
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Default Re: UAW's worst nightmare..Ford plant in Brazil

Very interesting concept. Not everyhing is true however. some manufacturing in the US has gone the cooperative production road as well. However unions resist this and most of the facilties with this approach are not unionized. I have personally been in a plant in Wisconsin that has union labor. The first day I was there I noticed that about shift change time there were several people sitting in chairs sleeping, reading, listening to the radio or talking to co-workers and the assembly lines were stopped. After obesrving this a few times I asked one of the Engineer's there what was going on? He told me that once they meet "production quota" then they can goof off until the shift ends. I then asked if that occurs everyday. He said pretty much. He went on to say that the industrial engineers set the production quota based on a full shift and then the unions always negotiated lower standards. That day I understood that union based manufacturing could not and would not compete globally or with manufacturing in the US that did not have union labor. I toured another facory that made the same equipment in the Southeast US and they worked until the end of the shift. The pay for assembly techs was also 40% of the union labor in Wisconsin. These facilities are doing just fine against the rest of the world.You don't see BMW, Toyota or Mercedes asking the US for a bailout and they all have non union manufacturing plants in the US. The only way I would support a bailout is if the Unions are willing to renegotiate there contracts to at least be equal to other manufacturing in the US much less Globally. The big 3 business plans are doomed regardless if we continue to give them money without this change. Just my opinion.
MM
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Old 12-05-2008, 05:59 PM
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Default RE: UAW's worst nightmare..Ford plant in Brazil

It extends to the government, I used to work for an IT company that sold the navy a bunch of switches and routers, we were installing them on the navy bases in Portsmouth Va, and Chesapeake Va. The government employees would take nap breaks, they would turn out the lights during the day at different times and actually sleep. They would kick off their shoes and lay back and sleep, it was the craziest thing I ever saw.

At one base we were working weekends, and I saw these government guys working on the weekend as well, they would bring in a tv and sit their in their cubes so I asked what were they doing? They said they needed to build up comp time so they wouldn't have to burn vacation time for a vacation and at the end of the year they could cash in their vacation for money.

Don't even get me started about what they did in september, running around with catalogs, buying what ever anyone wanted because if they didn't spend it they would lose it, no matter what they bought.

I saw some of the biggest waste you could ever imagine, and then I think about the taxes I pay. What a shame!!
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Old 12-06-2008, 05:50 AM
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Default Re: UAW's worst nightmare..Ford plant in Brazil

John_Madison CT - 12/5/2008 7:20 AM

While I know the Brazilian workers at this plant make more than this, the minimum wage in Brazil is about $100/month.
And, of course, everything costs them less. Go figure.
Minimum wage is a fallacy. All it does is inflate the price of goods and services, which in turn means that the purchasing power of those near the bottom never actually goes up. Look at the prices of goods and services 50 years ago, and wages.
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Old 12-06-2008, 08:01 AM
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Default RE: UAW's worst nightmare..Ford plant in Brazil

bellsisland - 12/5/2008 6:59 PM

It extends to the government, I used to work for an IT company that sold the navy a bunch of switches and routers, we were installing them on the navy bases in Portsmouth Va, and Chesapeake Va. The government employees would take nap breaks, they would turn out the lights during the day at different times and actually sleep. They would kick off their shoes and lay back and sleep, it was the craziest thing I ever saw.

At one base we were working weekends, and I saw these government guys working on the weekend as well, they would bring in a tv and sit their in their cubes so I asked what were they doing? They said they needed to build up comp time so they wouldn't have to burn vacation time for a vacation and at the end of the year they could cash in their vacation for money.

Don't even get me started about what they did in september, running around with catalogs, buying what ever anyone wanted because if they didn't spend it they would lose it, no matter what they bought.

I saw some of the biggest waste you could ever imagine, and then I think about the taxes I pay. What a shame!!
I couldn't agree more. Having worked for many Govt. agencies, I can back up what you say. However this is totally irrelevant in the UAW discussion.
How about the hypocrisy of the Senate and House to wag their fingers at the Detroit Three for their inability to run their respective companies properly. When is the last time our Govt. was properly managed in the senate and house?

This is all a big joke. I don't want my money going to the govt. or the auto companies. I'll buy their cars and trucks if they make better ones. How about that for a bailout. You make better shit and I'll buy it!

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Old 12-06-2008, 08:26 AM
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Default Re: UAW's worst nightmare..Ford plant in Brazil

Wow, senergy I forgot about the "pit"!!! When we had a plant here in Baltimore they used their pit for pretty much the same thing. Oh the stories...

If the big 3 should go under I really wouldn't feel sorry for the UAW or it's workers. Sorry guys but greed got the best of you.
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Old 12-06-2008, 08:11 PM
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Default Re: UAW's worst nightmare..Ford plant in Brazil

joenew61 - 12/5/2008 12:37 PM
senergy - 12/5/2008 11:14 AMI've done roof inspections on a GM Fisher Body assembly plant in Pa. While walking the roof with the facilities manager we found no less than 6 people hiding and sleeping. When discovered they would get up and run into the plant. The facilities manger said he can't do anything about it because it is out of his jurisdiction. This plant is now shut down!I also know of a tenured employee at the Lordstown plant that made no qualms about how they take turns each night in the "pit" to sleep. They had a secret pit set up like an apt. with cable and kitchen. Every fourth night it was there turn to hide while their co-workers covered for them.
Once the relationship between a pool of labor and the company becomes adversarial through labor negotiations, then no matter how generous the contract, the mindset will inevitably be one where the employees will exploit every opportunity to do less and get more. It is just human nature. For both to succeed requires collaboration and common goals - it's basic game theory.The wage rate gaps are only part of the handicap that the U.S. auto industry is facing. The only solution is for the unions to get "scared straight".
Joe, when is the relationship between labor and employer not adversarial? It starts that way, and stays the way. It is the objective of the employer to pay the employee as little as possible while turning the largest profit possible- period. US workers, union or non-union, can't compete with people that will do the same work for minimum wage elsewhere. I see you have time...
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Old 12-06-2008, 11:30 PM
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Default Re: UAW's worst nightmare..Ford plant in Brazil

Those at the top and those in the unions BOTH need to be dealt with. I'm sorry but I don't feel a UAW worker is worth what they are paid, to perform their VERY silo'd jobs. I also do not feel that any of these CEO's are worth double millions a year plus multi million dollars bonuses on top of that.

Greed from both sides of the fence.. And here I am in the middle, no union, no one to represent me, I work my tail off, I do more each day, I get more piled on me, I am told I am not to be paid overtime (even though I am supposed to be paid overtime if needed) and I shake it all off and I still go to work and I still work hard, and I make less than some grunt on an assembly line who knows how to do one job, that requires a very basic skill set and if asked to do more, will go file a grievance.

What an ABSOLUTE JOKE.....
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Old 12-07-2008, 04:31 AM
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Default RE: UAW's worst nightmare..Ford plant in Brazil

It's the thousands of retiree's pensions that earn 90% of their salaries that's killing the big 3...sound fimilar...like govt work?

Also, brand dilution, GM has like 61 different car platforms...Toyota out sells 6 of them with the Camry alone!

No major union concessions...no money!
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Old 12-07-2008, 04:34 AM
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StingerII - 12/7/2008 2:30 AMThose at the top and those in the unions BOTH need to be dealt with. I'm sorry but I don't feel a UAW worker is worth what they are paid, to perform their VERY silo'd jobs. I also do not feel that any of these CEO's are worth double millions a year plus multi million dollars bonuses on top of that.Greed from both sides of the fence.. And here I am in the middle, no union, no one to represent me, I work my tail off, I do more each day, I get more piled on me, I am told I am not to be paid overtime (even though I am supposed to be paid overtime if needed) and I shake it all off and I still go to work and I still work hard, and I make less than some grunt on an assembly line who knows how to do one job, that requires a very basic skill set and if asked to do more, will go file a grievance.What an ABSOLUTE JOKE.....
So, is the problem that you don't have a union? or That you are working much harder for the same salary (you are singing to the choir)? or That companies will pay you as little as possible as a standard practice and hide it behind ever increasing "performance driven objectives&quot, or Are you jealous that unions have used their power to represent the employee and therefore these employees that you feel are less skilled than you are, are getting paid more than they should (i.e. jealousy)? or That you know that you, yourself can be replaced by somebody that is willing to do it for less money elsewhere or via the marvelous H1-B visa program?
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Old 12-07-2008, 05:11 AM
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This is very sad. My experience with unions in the late 60's was nothing like the above posts describe. If things really are this bad I can almost understand the hate posts that have been appearing here about unions. I have seen postiive aspects of unions in government especially keeping politicians honest and from abusing their power - especially the civil service hiring system. But, this - this is sick.
Very disturbing. When I hear of these guys sleeping - I just don't understand - are their families that disfunctional? Where do they get these values? Who the heck wants to do nothing all day? What the heck is management for? How utterly boring their lives must be.

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Old 12-07-2008, 05:43 AM
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Default Re: UAW's worst nightmare..Ford plant in Brazil

TG_190 - 12/6/2008 11:11 PM



joenew61 - 12/5/2008 12:37 PM
senergy - 12/5/2008 11:14 AMI've done roof inspections on a GM Fisher Body assembly plant in Pa. While walking the roof with the facilities manager we found no less than 6 people hiding and sleeping. When discovered they would get up and run into the plant. The facilities manger said he can't do anything about it because it is out of his jurisdiction. This plant is now shut down!I also know of a tenured employee at the Lordstown plant that made no qualms about how they take turns each night in the "pit" to sleep. They had a secret pit set up like an apt. with cable and kitchen. Every fourth night it was there turn to hide while their co-workers covered for them.
Once the relationship between a pool of labor and the company becomes adversarial through labor negotiations, then no matter how generous the contract, the mindset will inevitably be one where the employees will exploit every opportunity to do less and get more. It is just human nature. For both to succeed requires collaboration and common goals - it's basic game theory.The wage rate gaps are only part of the handicap that the U.S. auto industry is facing. The only solution is for the unions to get "scared straight".
Joe, when is the relationship between labor and employer not adversarial? It starts that way, and stays the way. It is the objective of the employer to pay the employee as little as possible while turning the largest profit possible- period. US workers, union or non-union, can't compete with people that will do the same work for minimum wage elsewhere. I see you have time...

You need to finish the quote - "Once the relationship between a pool of labor and the company becomes adversarial through labor negotiations...."

Once you introduce the concept of rigid contractual terms covering every aspect of the employer-employee relationship, then coloring inside the lines, or just outside the lines enough to not get in trouble becomes the objective. It also becomes a game to maintain uniformity in output across the labor pool, and that means playing down to the lowest common denominator in the contract.

Add in the replacement of employment at will with a ridiculously complex and high threshhold for any kind of job action, and you get an order of magnitude increase in the adversarial relationships and an entirely different dynamic than the one that you see in a non-union, or even white collar shop. Add in wage rates that are above market, and the buffer of the union, and you get employees that see themselves on a different team than management, and have an attitude that their job is an entitlement.

When I worked for corporations, I also tried to get as much as I can out of the company, and if I felt they were not paying me enough or mistreating me, I would leave. For the UAW, there is no potential for purging, or a fresh start where you have to prove yourself, so you get workers that will simply hang on in their very well-furnished rut, and make their lives as easy as possible.
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Old 12-07-2008, 06:29 AM
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Default Re: UAW's worst nightmare..Ford plant in Brazil

LI Sound Grunt - 12/7/2008 6:11 AM

This is very sad. My experience with unions in the late 60's was nothing like the above posts describe. If things really are this bad I can almost understand the hate posts that have been appearing here about unions. I have seen postiive aspects of unions in government especially keeping politicians honest and from abusing their power - especially the civil service hiring system. But, this - this is sick.
Very disturbing. When I hear of these guys sleeping - I just don't understand - are their families that disfunctional? Where do they get these values? Who the heck wants to do nothing all day? What the heck is management for? How utterly boring their lives must be.
Your right, sad is the word. When I am forced to work in these places where there is absolutely no ethic I stand face to face with these guys and I don't hate them. They are simply living the life they know. They don't understand why we dislike them. And I really don't dislike them. I dislike the entity as a whole.

You ask where the values came from, I can tell you. These jobs have been past along the family lines for generations. The lowering standards, ethics and values has been an evolution and now we are seeing the revolution in the opposition. I don't think most people of this world have had the displeasure of seeing what I (and some others here) have witnessed in the UAW or the Govt. If they did, the revolution would have started long ago.

I fabricate no stories about my experiences with unions. I've had standoffs with pipes and weapons, just because I unknowingly ordered concrete from a Non-Union concrete company on a NYC Project. The Non-Union drivers told us they could unionize in a heartbeat, but they where making more money. Just one example, but you've heard the other side here this month.

Very sad, and I don't blame most of the workers, its the only life they know, make as much as you can for as little work. That sounds snipit, but isn't that what we all strive for?

I'm just tired of spending 45K for a truck that falls apart, and now I have to subsidize with my taxes.
There is a right and wrong in everything in life, and rarely is the right thing the easiest.

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Old 12-07-2008, 07:33 AM
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Default Re: UAW's worst nightmare..Ford plant in Brazil

I don't think that it is fixable at this point. Things have gone too far with the Unions. The solution may be to just "start over".
Question is...what is the best way to start over ? I don't pretend to be smart enough to have that answer but I do have my opinion... all a bankruptcy to occur which would allow the Car Companies to kick out the Unions.

OR...let THT members take over !!

There certainly enough "know-it-alls" here to make a difference
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Old 12-07-2008, 09:07 AM
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Default Re: UAW's worst nightmare..Ford plant in Brazil

SeaNile Boater - 12/7/2008 7:33 AM

I don't think that it is fixable at this point. Things have gone too far with the Unions. The solution may be to just "start over".
Question is...what is the best way to start over ? I don't pretend to be smart enough to have that answer but I do have my opinion... all a bankruptcy to occur which would allow the Car Companies to kick out the Unions.

OR...let THT members take over !!

There certainly enough "know-it-alls" here to make a difference




Yeah....Thats the ticket...Lets wipe out all the Unions. I mean, how dare the UAW ask for $26 an hour for an assembly line worker! Plus they want Medical benefits and a pension!!!!!! What Balls!!! The Big 3 should start hiring illegal aliens...pay them 100 Bucks a day and let Uncle Sam pick up the Tab for their health care.
An illegal making 500 Bucks a week goes a long way since they do not have to worry about paying taxes, healthcare, insurance, and live 20-40 to a house.
I say it is about time we bust all the Unions by opening up the border and using the illegals. Lets lower the Greedy American workers standard of living. Lets have a race to the bottom!

Good luck!
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Old 12-07-2008, 10:50 AM
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Let the unions compete on the basis of performance and productivity not politics and thuggery
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