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My morning RANT

Old 11-14-2008, 04:58 AM
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Default My morning RANT

Lately there is all this talk about bailout money for the auto makers, more specifically GM. Well my rant is: NFW I say! The company should be allowed to wallow away in it's own dirty water. If General Motors or for that matter the other big two produced a complete line up of vehicles that wasn't based off of 40-50 year old fuel economy technology then they wouldn't be in the mess they are in!

GM seems to be riding on their own coat tails of yesteryear and their lax-a-daisy attitude in being innovative and striving to maintaining their number one status has put them in the current position they are in....number two! With an attitude of following the Japanese it is no wonder why their sales has fallen.

If any money is to be put on the table to help any automobile manufacture that money should be loaned w/ interest and not granted. Grant money should NOT be given to any company that does NOT produce a product that meets today’s needs. Gas mileage of today’s vehicles really isn’t any better then vehicles of the late 60's and very early 70's. I for one do have a serious problem with grant money given to any company that is not producing what the consumer really needs. In the electronic world the technology advances so quickly the consumer has a hard time keeping up, whereas with the automotive industry we carve for fuel economy and yet the manufacture consistently fail to deliver. F#@k the bailout money I say.
Old 11-14-2008, 05:26 AM
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Well, i think most would agree that American auto manuf. need to fix their own problems before they should expect any public help. But things aren't always so simple. If we let them die, and all of that industry moves overseas, we'll have almost no real heavy industry left in this country. That whole trend scares the beejeezus out of me. Remember how we won World War II? We basically outproduced our enemies. If we were in a global theatre conflict like that today we would be in SERIOUS trouble. We've got to do whatever it takes to reverse the trend of moving our jobs and manufacturing ability out of the country. $0.02

Old 11-14-2008, 05:29 AM
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I completely agree. My 1st car was a 1979 Camaro with a 305 2 barrel. I kept up with fuel mileage religiously and know for a fact it got 20mpg. My 2nd car (truck) was a 1985 Toyota 4x4 with the 2.4 liter, it got 40mpg highway. I know a gallon of gas only has so many btu's but come on, almost 30 years of technological advances and no better economy out of similar sized engines. My #@!$%&* Dodge Dakota 4 door 4x4 with the 4.7 V-8 gets 15mpg highway. The newer, smaller V-8 does make more HP, 235hp compared to the '79 Camaro's 130hp, but still, you would think 30 years of innovation would yield more power AND economy. I too say let them fail. I saw on the news the other day that the average salary at GM (maybe just the workers, not management) is $75 per hour. Most of the jobs are monotonous, repetitive, tasks that any flunkie out of HS would be more than happy to do for $10 per hour. This country was built on free markets. GET THE FREAKIN, CORRUPT, MONEY WHORE'N UNIONS OUT OF THERE and let the car industry rebuild itself. Of course the unions aren't going anywhere (with the incoming administration), the only way to rid the industry of it's parasitic mooch is to let it die.
Old 11-14-2008, 06:32 AM
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Default Re: My morning RANT

baypro21 - 11/14/2008 4:29 AM

GET THE FREAKIN, CORRUPT, MONEY WHORE'N UNIONS OUT OF THERE and let the car industry rebuild itself. Of course the unions aren't going anywhere (with the incoming administration), the only way to rid the industry of it's parasitic mooch is to let it die.
Unions had their place. They need to go. I hope GM doesn't wither and die - I own a few - but I do believe in a free market economy, not socialism.

Old 11-14-2008, 06:39 AM
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Oh I too feel loosing the automobile conglomerate would be catastrophic to the American way, but grant money? Loan money yes, but not grant money. After all it was the mentality of board of directors that put themselves in the predicament that they currently find themselves in. It was the mentality of the board of directors that put the conglomerate in jeopardy and the people of the land in jeopardy and the nation as a whole in jeopardy!

Besides, where the heck is all those billions if not trillions of dollars that they made as profits over all the years at a time like this??????
Old 11-14-2008, 06:53 AM
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Default Re: My morning RANT

Don't worry Chevy isn't going anywhere. Even without gov help they will survive. They just will have to change their product and costs associated them. I still think that a 1/2 ton pickup that gets 30mpg with a straight six diesel would be their savior. Like a 3.0 diesel with a turbo, maybe built to give the operator the option of the amount of boost pressure. Power or economy mode or something of the sort. It's doable.
Old 11-14-2008, 07:05 AM
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The auto companies need to be left alone so that they can file for bankruptcy, chapter 11, reorganization of debt. That will cause union pressure to fail way, a freeze on monies they own without accumulating interest, and allow them the space to develop a strategic plan on how to be competitive and rebuild themselves. If auto manfr'ing went overseas, as Hydro suggests, it would only be temporary. The auto industry will rebuild itself in the US. The issue is not one of loss of industry; it is an issue of the loss of tax revenue. How long do you think it will take the fed gov't to get that $60b grant back in taxes generated from car sales, employment tax, etc?


Old 11-14-2008, 07:14 AM
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Default RE: My morning RANT

There was a time when they were the "big 3". That time has passed them by. Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Mercedes all have plants in the US and if I am not mistaken, all are non-union. I am pretty sure that the Fed gov would not step in and bailout any of those other 4 I mentioned.

in my opinion.......No bailouts or loans. Let them figure it out.....like any other business would have to do.
Old 11-14-2008, 07:46 AM
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Default Re: My morning RANT

baypro21 - 11/14/2008 7:29 AM My 2nd car (truck) was a 1985 Toyota 4x4 with the 2.4 liter, it got 40mpg highway.
uh...I think your tires must have thrown your odometer off. I had a Celica of about the same vintage with the same motor, and it never got better than aout 30 mpg
Old 11-14-2008, 08:15 AM
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SIM - 11/14/2008 10:14 PM



There was a time when they were the "big 3". That time has passed them by. Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Mercedes all have plants in the US and if I am not mistaken, all are non-union. I am pretty sure that the Fed gov would not step in and bailout any of those other 4 I mentioned.

in my opinion.......No bailouts or loans. Let them figure it out.....like any other business would have to do.

Mistaken; union. At least Toyota. But it is not the same union, not as strong. In the US, a company does not decided union or no union. The employees do.

And fwiw, Ford has (I think) 7 plants in China. You know GM has to be there, too. So they know how to make small, competitive cars.

But I'm in line with what you are thinking.
Old 11-14-2008, 08:45 AM
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A MODERN PARABLE . .

A Japanese company ( Toyota ) and an American company (Ford) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.
On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.
The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.
Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing.
Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.
They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.
Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents, and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.
They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners, and free pens for the rower. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes, and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.
The next year the Japanese won by two miles.
Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India .
The End.
Here's something else to think about:
Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US , claiming they can't make money paying American wages.
TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US. The last quarter's results:
TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.
Ford folks are still scratching their heads.


The best place to rationalize detroit is in Bankruptcy court!
Old 11-14-2008, 09:34 AM
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Default Re: My morning RANT

They need to be washed through Chapter 11 bankruptcy in order to re-organize. In BK the UAW will be forced to re-open the CBA and will lose substantial power - just look at Delta Airlines for precedence.

And Garett the money is not a grant, it is actually convertible debt.
Old 11-14-2008, 10:48 AM
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Eyeball - 11/14/2008 6:05 AM

The auto companies need to be left alone so that they can file for bankruptcy, chapter 11, reorganization of debt. That will cause union pressure to fail way, a freeze on monies they own without accumulating interest, and allow them the space to develop a strategic plan on how to be competitive and rebuild themselves. If auto manfr'ing went overseas, as Hydro suggests, it would only be temporary. The auto industry will rebuild itself in the US. The issue is not one of loss of industry; it is an issue of the loss of tax revenue. How long do you think it will take the fed gov't to get that $60b grant back in taxes generated from car sales, employment tax, etc?

BINGO.

The big 3 business model is simply not sustainable now nor has it been for years. There is a thriving auto industry in the US, it's not based in Detriot though. Any bailout of the big 3 will only be a bailout of the union health care and pension funds, nothing more. Chap 11 needs to happen so they can get their business model in order.
Old 11-14-2008, 04:19 PM
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Default Re: My morning RANT

Joe - 11/14/2008 9:46 AM



baypro21 - 11/14/2008 7:29 AM My 2nd car (truck) was a 1985 Toyota 4x4 with the 2.4 liter, it got 40mpg highway.
uh...I think your tires must have thrown your odometer off. I had a Celica of about the same vintage with the same motor, and it never got better than aout 30 mpg



you are not the first one to call me out on this particular proclaimation, so it must be hard to believe. I'm going on memory from over 20 years ago, the particular instance I'm thinking of was a trip from my sister-in-laws from Atlanta to Raleigh (over 400 miles). What size tank does a 1985 Toyota 4x4 2 door have? I do know we did not stop for gas on the trip back, it was at night and we never stopped. ;?
Old 11-14-2008, 04:22 PM
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also for the record I hope GM and the other 2 do make it out of this crisis. I own 2 chevy's and a Dodge., and have owned many others including Fords.
Old 11-14-2008, 06:36 PM
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I have owned a few Toyotas and while they have been real good on fuel, I ain't never got 40mpg highway miles. Best I ever done was in a 1983 Toyota Tercel 28 mpg consistantly. 4x4 Toyota truck getting 40mpg, I had a regular cab two wheel Toyotal truck maybe like an '82, 23 - 24 mpg.

Comparing a 1985 Toyota 4 cylinder to a 4.7 V-8 quad cab Dodge Dakota apples and orangatangs. That dakota outwieghs the toyo by what 1500- 2000 pounds.

While I ain't exactly calling BS on the 40 mpg in a Toyo 4x4 truck, I do think it may be taking liberty with history. I agree with Joe whole hearted. You owned the Toyo you tell us how big the tank was. I think my 1982-83 2 wheel drive was like 14.

Unions, some changes need to be made, but be real careful who you call an unskilled flunky. The very next car you buy might just be put together by a $10/hr HS drop out unskilled flunky. By the way you don't think a successful company should pay a living wage to its employees. You can't buy groceries for a family, on a $10/hr 40 hour week. Next thing you gonna raise heck about is the illegals now they will work for $10/hr, is that what you really want?
Old 11-14-2008, 06:47 PM
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twentynine - 11/14/2008 5:36 PM

IUnions, some changes need to be made, but be real careful who you call an unskilled flunky. The very next car you buy might just be put together by a $10/hr HS drop out unskilled flunky. By the way you don't think a successful company should pay a living wage to its employees. You can't buy groceries for a family, on a $10/hr 40 hour week. Next thing you gonna raise heck about is the illegals now they will work for $10/hr, is that what you really want?
This is typical union rhetoric. No one in a Toyota, BMW, or Honda plant here is making 10 or even 20 per hour,
Old 11-14-2008, 09:20 PM
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What would it cost taxpayers to bail out the health care and retirement benefits of the retirees, plus the unemployment compensation to 2-3 million laid off workers if we just do nothing? We're going to pay either way, what are we going to get out of it in the long run?

I'm guessing the $75/hr average someone mentioned is what it cost to keep someone on the payroll, not what they make. Hourly workers don't realize that they sometimes cost their employers twice as much as they are actually paid, and ten times as much as some of them produce.
Old 11-15-2008, 04:12 AM
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My Turn - 11/14/2008 7:47 PM
twentynine - 11/14/2008 5:36 PM IUnions, some changes need to be made, but be real careful who you call an unskilled flunky. The very next car you buy might just be put together by a $10/hr HS drop out unskilled flunky. By the way you don't think a successful company should pay a living wage to its employees. You can't buy groceries for a family, on a $10/hr 40 hour week. Next thing you gonna raise heck about is the illegals now they will work for $10/hr, is that what you really want?
This is typical union rhetoric. No one in a Toyota, BMW, or Honda plant here is making 10 or even 20 per hour,


Look I don't belong to a union, the one time I did it was one heck of a screwed up deal.By the way the unionin this instance was not the UAW.

That said, show me one, just one, only one, automobile designed by a UAW worker. Isn't the design and engineering done by administrative employees, like engineers, and such. You know the professional and semi-pro employees of the company--the leaders--the execs. Making the guy on the assembly line responsible for a screwed up design is kind of backwards.



Wages at the foriegn car companies. Well just for giggles I assume we are talking apples and apples, in other words the company's assembly plants located in the good ole U S of A. Honda, Toyota, BMW, or Hyundai I have no knowledge of thier wages. I do know for a fact that the Nissan assembly plant located in Jackson Ms pays way whole lot more than $10/hr for a technician, maybe as much as 2-1/2 times that. You would have to prove to me that a tech working at the BMW assemblyplant in the US makes less than $10/hr. Just like Mr Baypro would have to prove to me that he had a 1985 Toyo 4x4 p/u that got 40mpg. In the case of Nissan I do know that the UAW has nothing in the plant,it is completely non-union.

Now on the outside chance we are talking about apples and oranges, comparing wages in Japan, Europe,Asia or S. America,verses wages in the U S. Heck, I know where you can get a job working for Nike tennis shoe company making .25 a day. Course if you aremore than 10 years old you may be disqualified. Do you want your CHILD working for wages like that.



Rant how you want. I do agreethat the car companies of America, Chrystler, Ford, GMhave been caught in a bind. However I do know that Mr Joe car assembly technician is not responsible for the wrong direction, these companieshave taken.That responsibility falls directly on the shoulders of the leadership of said companies.
Old 11-15-2008, 04:24 AM
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By the way I googled up the fuel tank size on a 1985 Toyo P/U. The only reference I could find was a OEM replacement part located at Rock Auto. SR5 w/2.4 engine came equipped with a 17 or a 19 gallon tank.

400 divided by 17 = mpg could be as low as 24 and still make the 400 mile trip with leftovers.

400 divided by 19 = mpg could be as low as 21.5 and still make the 400 mile trip with leftovers

Cosidering the truck is/was a 4x4 I think the 24 mpg is way more realistic than 40mpg. Good but a long way from 40 mpg.


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