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Defibrillator - anyone carry one on their boat?

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Defibrillator - anyone carry one on their boat?

Old 02-10-2021, 08:25 PM
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Default Defibrillator - anyone carry one on their boat?

I’ve got a pretty remote camp that is water access only. 15 minute boat ride from the launch and then a 30 minute car ride to the hospital.

I keep a pretty well stocked first aid kit at camp.

A few months ago one of my regular guests had a serious heart attack and had to have bypass surgery, etc. thus guy is 72, super fit, non smoker and had recently had a physical.

This got me to thinking. Most guys I fish with are getting older.

if someone had a heart attack we’d have to decide quickly - get in the boat and haul butt or call USCG and hope they had a chopper in the area.

I'm giving some thought to buying a defibrillator to carry down to my camp.

I’ve had the training but have never given any thought to buying one.

if we’ve got EMTs, docs, nurses or trained medical folks - I’m looking for some advice.

comments/suggestions are welcome.

thanks.
Old 02-10-2021, 08:47 PM
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If it works in your budget, I would definitely consider it. My guests are sometimes well on the senior side and we are sometimes an hour or so from medical attention. AEDs are pricey, but I have thought about adding one to the kit.

AEDs

I have heard of enough occurrences at the lake where it could have saved a life.
Neither of the people I have done CPR on survived. They may have survived if I was not starting CPR an hour after they went down.
Old 02-10-2021, 08:51 PM
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AEDs do not help with a clogged artery, which means in the majority of heart attacks they are useless.

I think there is probably better ways to spend money to save lives.
Old 02-10-2021, 08:52 PM
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If a guy goes down while reeling in a fish, the rod gets handed off to another angler, first guy gets "defibbed" , comes back, finishes reeling in fish, what percentage of the fish fillets does the stand in guy get?....
Old 02-10-2021, 09:16 PM
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when a number is called, there is no way to stop them from going.
all kidding aside, if the medics cannot get to you or you cannot get them to a hospital quickly, there is not much chance of it helping
Old 02-11-2021, 03:09 AM
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While it can't hurt to have one, most seniors who suffer heart attacks have them because of blockages and not because of A-Fib or a sudden heart stoppage. They are really most useful for younger people with sudden cardiac arrest.
Old 02-11-2021, 06:37 AM
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AED, when used during CPR, can increase the survival rate of the victim. ... While CPR help maintains blood flow, AED ensures proper heart rhythm. Both of them are important that increase the odds that a person survives a heart attack. CPR and AED training are important.

But......
https://www.uofazcenteronaging.com/c...amilies-decide
The success rate of CPR in movies and on television is around 67%. Patients and their families tend to be even more optimistic about the success rate, with 81% of patients over the age of 70 thinking they have a 50% chance of survival and 23% thinking their survival chance is 90% or more. In reality, the overall survival rate for adults following out-patient CPR is about 6%. For patients who undergo CPR in a hospital, the survival rate is slightly higher at about 16%, but some survivors have impaired neurological function (e.g., memory loss, impaired speech or motor function, incoordination, coma, etc) (Table 1).
Table 1. Outcomes of In-Hospital CPR
Survival RatesSurvival with no/mild neurologic disability
7.9%
Survival with major neurologic disability
8.1%

Living Situation After Hospital DischargeDischarge to home
6.0%
Discharge to nursing facility or other site
10.0%


As one might expect, survival rates differ with a patient’s age and health status. Advanced age is associated with decreased survival rates. In fact, one study showed that after age 65, the chance of survival decrease 3% with every five years of age. Chronic organ disease (heart, lung, liver, or kidney) and poor functional status also decrease survival rates. Table 2 provides examples of survival rates based on various patient characteristics.

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I'd want my friends to make very sure I was dead, than crack a beer and toast me for going out doing something I loved.

Old 02-11-2021, 07:50 AM
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Plenty of physicians on this forum to answer, but my understanding if the heart stops, CPR is basically just trying to keep the body alive for a bit until a defibrillator and drugs can get the heart going again. Grossly simplifying this, using the % given above: the person essentially has almost zero chance of living without a shock.

AED's are cheap. We spend more on fuel or tackle. This thread just reminded me I'm going to buy one now. Best friend is alive because there was an AED nearby when his heart stopped due to blockages (he was late 60's). He had no history or symptoms or family history. Zapped him back to life and 1.5 hours later got quad-bypass. AED is only reason he's alive.

Another close friend late 30's had some wiring wrong in heart and fell out at work. AED saved his life. They retrieved the data from the AED and his cardiologist said, "yup, you were dead". They did cath and zero blockages; he now has a permanent defib installed (wifi endabled).

AED save lifes. Baywatch is NOT fact. Almost zero chance of coming back from CPR alone. AEDs are cheap.

Last edited by johnny.dollar; 02-11-2021 at 10:35 AM. Reason: typo
Old 02-11-2021, 08:36 AM
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I want one badly.
Old 02-11-2021, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by yakmatt View Post
AED, when used during CPR, can increase the survival rate of the victim. ... While CPR help maintains blood flow, AED ensures proper heart rhythm. Both of them are important that increase the odds that a person survives a heart attack. CPR and AED training are important.

But......
https://www.uofazcenteronaging.com/c...amilies-decide
The success rate of CPR in movies and on television is around 67%. Patients and their families tend to be even more optimistic about the success rate, with 81% of patients over the age of 70 thinking they have a 50% chance of survival and 23% thinking their survival chance is 90% or more. In reality, the overall survival rate for adults following out-patient CPR is about 6%. For patients who undergo CPR in a hospital, the survival rate is slightly higher at about 16%, but some survivors have impaired neurological function (e.g., memory loss, impaired speech or motor function, incoordination, coma, etc) (Table 1).
Table 1. Outcomes of In-Hospital CPR
Survival RatesSurvival with no/mild neurologic disability
7.9%
Survival with major neurologic disability
8.1%

Living Situation After Hospital DischargeDischarge to home
6.0%
Discharge to nursing facility or other site
10.0%


As one might expect, survival rates differ with a patient’s age and health status. Advanced age is associated with decreased survival rates. In fact, one study showed that after age 65, the chance of survival decrease 3% with every five years of age. Chronic organ disease (heart, lung, liver, or kidney) and poor functional status also decrease survival rates. Table 2 provides examples of survival rates based on various patient characteristics.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd want my friends to make very sure I was dead, than crack a beer and toast me for going out doing something I loved.
The information yakmatt has posted is spot on. Out of hospital events have a dismal outcome 94% of the time.
In hospital events, which yakmatt and I have seen regularly, depend on:
1. The disease(s) involved
2. The time between the event and the person being found
3. Luck

CPR, even without ventilation, can provide "enough" blood flow to the brain and heart to keep you going/alive for a few minutes. With oxygenation and ventilation even longer. Much longer. (I've revived people that responded 20 minutes later to no heart beat so long as the CPR was good and the endotracheal tube and oxygenation were normal)

That said, an AED on a boat is a very long shot. Return of rhythm may not last, and the person may need repeated shocks.
Old 02-11-2021, 08:46 AM
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I have one I carry everywhere i go...its internal though
Old 02-11-2021, 01:07 PM
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AEDs only help in cases of vtac or vfib, not asystole, but it will detect it and tell you to do CPR in cases of asystole.
Old 02-11-2021, 01:37 PM
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Those CPR numbers are even worse if you consider many codes are primary respiratory in origin and have more successful outcomes than a cardiac events. But if it makes you feel better and gives you more confidence to going into the blue with older friends and you can afford it, go for it. You can always say you did the best you could. I hope you have a PLB or EPIRB or will spend the money on that 1st.

As an aside, I go out on friends boats where local knowledge of bars, rocks and general navigation is crucial. One friend uses his cell for navigation. I started to think If anything happened to him it would be a cluster. So I take a handheld GPS when I go out. I can always get back following my tracks.
Old 02-11-2021, 02:51 PM
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If you are going to get one, make sure it has real time feedback on the depth and rate of your CPR compressions, that’s proven in studies to increase survival rates by 66%. I represent Zoll Medical and we put these things on all types of vessels from the USN, tugs, ferries, and lots of private vessels.

https://www.zoll.com/products/aeds/a...-public-access

PM me and I can put you in touch with a distributor.
Old 02-11-2021, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by bluffman2 View Post
I have one I carry everywhere i go...its internal though
you and me both, mines a pace maker as well
Old 02-11-2021, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by other line View Post
If you are going to get one, make sure it has real time feedback on the depth and rate of your CPR compressions, that’s proven in studies to increase survival rates by 66%. I represent Zoll Medical and we put these things on all types of vessels from the USN, tugs, ferries, and lots of private vessels.

https://www.zoll.com/products/aeds/a...-public-access

PM me and I can put you in touch with a distributor.
Which model for the pleasure boater?
Old 02-11-2021, 03:38 PM
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There might be even more use for a Stop-The-Bleed kit on a fishing boat. Knives and gaffs have a way of finding flesh.
Old 02-11-2021, 03:44 PM
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Given it's for a fish camp, drowning can happen, D-fib could possibly help there also.
Old 02-11-2021, 04:33 PM
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I keep mine just beside the operating theatre bed, the autoclave and the pharmacy cabinet, but there's no room left, so I don't use the boat.
Old 02-11-2021, 05:03 PM
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I am partial to Zoll products. With that said, most AEDs are suitable. I would lean towards a machine that integrates with the EMS agency's machines. This way they do not have to swap out your pads for theirs. Some nice features include depth feedback and compression metronome.

The two keys to return of spontaneous circulation are high quality chest compressions and defibrillation (if ventricular tachycardia or ventricular fibrillation). If you witness a sudden cardiac arrest in front of you, I would argue that defibrillation is most important since the blood is still loaded with oxygen. This should be immediately followed by high quality chest compressions. If your come across a cardiac arrest, high quality chest compressions is key.

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