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Defund the Police - Serious Question

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Defund the Police - Serious Question

Old 06-15-2020, 07:21 AM
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Default Defund the Police - Serious Question

A call for reforms, training, changes to laws/policies are likely needed but the call to reform the police will lead to a replacement with what?

I doubt you will find many who want their property and possessions destroyed or stolen, their family or themselves harmed so what is the viable option? Private security? The more affluent in many cases already pay for additional security measures but those 'protesting' will be the least likely to afford the new model. I seriously doubt any state, county or municipality would give up their ability to use force to enforce their will on the citizens or completely subjugate it to a private entity, so where does that leave the Defund the Police supporters?
Old 06-15-2020, 07:23 AM
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It ain't happening
Old 06-15-2020, 07:24 AM
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A police force without the existing union protections, that prevent disciplinary actions, firings, oversight etc.

Perhaps selling off the tanks and military equipment and using that budget to fund substance abuse treatments, family counselors, social workers etc.

I can't help but think of the analogy, "When your only tool is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail." When our government's only tool to keep the peace and protect its citizens is "law enforcement" you are going to make criminals out of everyone, and build a lot of mistrust, anger, and unfortunately abuse.

Defund the Police is a horrible term. However, restructuring a flawed organization makes a lot of sense, and if that means dismantling it and starting from scratch in order to do so, then so be it.

Last edited by beber; 06-15-2020 at 07:50 AM.
Old 06-15-2020, 07:31 AM
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There are a few groups with conflicting needs/wants with the defund the police chant. Its the typical disjointed leadership or lack of it that we are all used to seeing. There are some people who defund means to completely abolish, no police. Others want to reduce police and have crisis counselors be first responders and take some funds directed at the police and put them into more community services . And yet there are some whos definition of defunding the police means to disassemble police departments and rebuild them back up without unions, contracts, military gear, and whatnot.

Old 06-15-2020, 07:32 AM
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Here is what Camden did..

Camden disbanded its police department; here’s how the city rebuilt it
http://www.mcall.com/news/pennsylvan...woi-story.html
Old 06-15-2020, 07:32 AM
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I keep hearing this talk about "reforms" but none of these action groups or bureaucrats have yet to explain what they mean by that.

Do policy changes really mitigate bad apples from making bad decisions?
Old 06-15-2020, 07:36 AM
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Some of the ideas I've seen floating around are completely good ideas. Crisis managers, social work type things, etc... people who are better trained in those sorts of things for those situations. More oversight and making it easier to get rid of bad cops (which all good cops should want).

The term "defund the police" is pretty much the worst way they could have worded this movement.

My brother is a cop and some of my friends are as well. There's work to be done for sure.
Old 06-15-2020, 07:38 AM
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More training has to be the biggest, most valuable thing that the police force NEEDS. Along with mandatory XX amount of hours worth of college level criminal justice courses. Then lets get them aligned with how to de-escalate a scenario without excessive use of force. Other countries do it regularly and successfully, and that could be due to a population with less access/availability to guns/lethal weapons.

It's vitally important to recognize the difference between defunding and disbanding. Just take a look at all of these city budgets and how much money is allocated to the police departments. And for what, to stock up on ammunition/guns? We need to spread the budget to areas lacking vital funding. Our school systems for example. How many times have you heard a teacher say they needed to purchase goods for their classroom out of their own pocket? This is just one, basic, high level area where funding is needed. We need to invest more in our communities versus the people that "protect" them. I don't discount the importance of police, and honestly believe it's just time to reevaluate their presence in society and transform how they interact with all of us.

I just heard on the local FM talk radio station this morning how police have to make split second decisions for their lives (justifying the Atlanta shooting that recently happened). Do I understand this, absolutely. At the same time, we should recognize that not everyone that enters the police academy (regardless of physical ability) is meant to, or can handle being put in those situations. That's where rigorous psychological testing should occur prior to entering a position where you have the decision to take someone's life.
Old 06-15-2020, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by KJS View Post
Here is what Camden did..

Camden disbanded its police department; here’s how the city rebuilt it
http://www.mcall.com/news/pennsylvan...woi-story.html

They brought in the State police. Then when that was up, they disbanded the Camden police, changed the name and rehired. The budget went up not down. The original police were not that great at their job to put it nicely.

A lot of things go on in Camden that don't show up on statistics. Crime is going down on paper. But no one in their right mind would drive through Camden let alone walk through it.
Old 06-15-2020, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by WaterEnjoyer View Post
They brought in the State police. Then when that was up, they disbanded the Camden police, changed the name and rehired. The budget went up not down. The original police were not that great at their job to put it nicely.

A lot of things go on in Camden that don't show up on statistics. Crime is going down on paper. But no one in their right mind would drive through Camden let alone walk through it.
Of course Camden isn't perfect, but lessons (both good and bad) can be learned from their experience.

The original question was...

Originally Posted by bsmit24 View Post
A call for reforms, training, changes to laws/policies are likely needed but the call to reform the police will lead to a replacement with what?
Old 06-15-2020, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by WaterEnjoyer View Post
They brought in the State police. Then when that was up, they disbanded the Camden police, changed the name and rehired. The budget went up not down. The original police were not that great at their job to put it nicely.

A lot of things go on in Camden that don't show up on statistics. Crime is going down on paper. But no one in their right mind would drive through Camden let alone walk through it.
Camden =
Old 06-15-2020, 07:56 AM
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In 1970 Tom Wolfe released "Radical Chic and Mau Mauing the Flak Catchers", a 2 essay volume of his observations on white guilt and minority governance.
50 years later it's still caustic,cynical and brilliant; and no,nothing changed in half a century. Highly recommended (re-)reading for our current times.
Old 06-15-2020, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Shoreacresgrown View Post
More training has to be the biggest, most valuable thing that the police force NEEDS.
What is your experience in the area of police academy training methods and on the job training?

In what specific areas do officers NEED more training?
Old 06-15-2020, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by KJS View Post
Of course Camden isn't perfect, but lessons (both good and bad) can be learned from their experience.

The original question was...
You made the mistake of answering the OP factually and objectively, and without bias.
Old 06-15-2020, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by KJS View Post
Of course Camden isn't perfect, but lessons (both good and bad) can be learned from their experience.

The original question was...

ok. You can believe Camden is different. That it isn't just a big PR push to appear like things are different.
Old 06-15-2020, 08:06 AM
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The whole thing to me is a never ending circle.

Police work when it goes hands on is dirty and not pretty. You have to make split second decisions that literally impact the entire nation. Out of the millions of interactions, laser focus is put on the bad decisions. Statistically any rational person knows that these “incidents” are mathematically unavoidable. That sounds cold and cruel but it is reality. The problem is emphasizing by the media that police work needs to be perfect or not exist. Well neither of those is possible so they do the best they can.

All these great ideas won’t help the street cop at 3am when he is fighting for his fight with a career violent felon. Now he has his life and families life destroyed for trying to do the right thing. After all this crap you will get less and less qualified people raising their hand to be target.

Cops will simply stay in their car and take the report after the crime is done. Criminals will be empowered and the citizens will be the victims. If the citizens stop suspects, they will be labeled by the same media as vigilantes and have their lives ruined as well.


More training is always a good thing but these events will never stop. I don’t condone them and they are wrong but I understand that statically they happen. We have to do everything “reasonable” to prevent them and take action for justice after the fact just like any other crime if the cop is at fault but what I hear today is more scary then anything less.

Baltimore after the Freddy Gray case is the perfect examples. The cops simply stopped caring.
Old 06-15-2020, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by WaterEnjoyer View Post
ok. You can believe Camden is different. That it isn't just a big PR push to appear like things are different.
I don't believe either way. I am saying there are lessons to be learned from every situation.
Old 06-15-2020, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by captbone View Post
The whole thing to me is a never ending circle.

Police work when it goes hands on is dirty and not pretty. You have to make split second decisions that literally impact the entire nation. Out of the millions of interactions, laser focus is put on the bad decisions. Statistically any rational person knows that these “incidents” are mathematically unavoidable. That sounds cold and cruel but it is reality. The problem is emphasizing by the media that police work needs to be perfect or not exist. Well neither of those is possible so they do the best they can.

All these great ideas won’t help the street cop at 3am when he is fighting for his fight with a career violent felon. Now he has his life and families life destroyed for trying to do the right thing. After all this crap you will get less and less qualified people raising their hand to be target.

Cops will simply stay in their car and take the report after the crime is done. Criminals will be empowered and the citizens will be the victims. If the citizens stop suspects, they will be labeled by the same media as vigilantes and have their lives ruined as well.


More training is always a good thing but these events will never stop. I don’t condone them and they are wrong but I understand that statically they happen. We have to do everything “reasonable” to prevent them and take action for justice after the fact just like any other crime if the cop is at fault but what I hear today is more scary then anything less.

Baltimore after the Freddy Gray case is the perfect examples. The cops simply stopped caring.
On point...
Old 06-15-2020, 08:15 AM
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And what happens when cops stop caring,,, crimes and homicides go up, at which point elected officials put pressure on the department heads to do something about it.
Old 06-15-2020, 08:28 AM
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Makes me wonder with all of this going on that a policeman/woman may second guess themselves when faced with a life threatening situation.

This could lead to, God forbid, a LEO getting seriously hurt or worse just because they aren't able to enforce the law without scrutiny, potentially losing their job, or being arrested themselves.

This whole thing will not end well for them, or the law abiding citizen.

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