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Defund the Police - Serious Question

Old 06-16-2020, 01:44 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by EpicWakeJump View Post
What about that Texas police woman that walked into the wrong apartment and killed the guy just chilling in his apartment?
No way would I be a cop. That job is too riddled with unknowns.
..

If you goofed off in high school, lifted weights and got high and, as a result, were going to work the fry-o-lator at Mickey-Ds, then you learned that you could earn well into 6 figures with a bunch of like-minded guys just for going around in a free car and having citizens bow to your whims and orders, I think you would jump at that opportunity...and then protect it with your life.
Old 06-16-2020, 01:46 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by RusticHills View Post
That's your takeaway from what I wrote?

You spent many years in FED LE? Your anti-police rhetoric on this and other topics tells me otherwise. Something is missing here.. Did you get fired and have an axe to grind or something?
Nope, I'm just anti-criminal. Even more so, anti-well paid criminal. Nothing more. If that is anti-police, then maybe the glove fits well.
Old 06-16-2020, 02:05 PM
  #103  
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Here's a good one:


Old 06-16-2020, 02:23 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by BigBone View Post
I spent years in federal law enforcement and it's not the local criminals that scare me or threaten my property but rather the unchecked, aggressive robocops. This is the issue our country is facing, whether we admit it or not.

As an officer or in custody?

I feel like you are full of shit and just anti police, which is fine and your right.

On the flip side, I'd love to hear your solution. Fire any in shape officers that can bench over 200? Maybe they should make themselves more vulnerable?
Old 06-16-2020, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ytmorris View Post
As an officer or in custody? I feel like you are full of shit and just anti police, which is fine and your right. On the flip side, I'd love to hear your solution. Fire any in shape officers that can bench over 200? Maybe they should make themselves more vulnerable?
I like your sense of humor and much of that is, indeed, needed nowadays. I am definitely anti-criminal-police and hope you are, as well, though I will acknowledge that is almost impossible for LEOs. My solution? Here are a few ideas:
  1. True transparent, external investigations
  2. Whistleblower protection for officers
  3. De-militarize police and their training
  4. Reduce funding where appropriate (my example is PB Sheriffs Office and their $700,000,000)
  5. Psychological evaluations
  6. Drug testing
  7. Body Cams
  8. Rotate partners
  9. If recruiting is getting more difficult, the solution is not to lower the bar.
  10. Periodic interviews to elicit feedback and uncover issues early
Old 06-16-2020, 02:47 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by ytmorris View Post
I feel like you are full of shit and just anti police, which is fine and your right.
Question for you: why should I have to show them my navy blue hat with emblem and say, "hey man, I'm on your side" just to get them to relax?

Is that right, and what about the many folks that don't have that advantage?
Old 06-16-2020, 03:03 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by BigBone View Post
I like your sense of humor and much of that is, indeed, needed nowadays. I am definitely anti-criminal-police and hope you are, as well, though I will acknowledge that is almost impossible for LEOs. My solution? Here are a few ideas:
  1. True transparent, external investigations
  2. Whistleblower protection for officers
  3. De-militarize police and their training
  4. Reduce funding where appropriate (my example is PB Sheriffs Office and their $700,000,000)
  5. Psychological evaluations
  6. Drug testing
  7. Body Cams
  8. Rotate partners
  9. If recruiting is getting more difficult, the solution is not to lower the bar.
  10. Periodic interviews to elicit feedback and uncover issues early

You make some valid points. I don't know what yall have in SOFL, but we don't have massive pensions around here but departments aren't unionized either. I addressed the demilitarizing above. I feel as though I wan't officers to have the best tools they can get. The better the tool, the cleaner the job.

I am fine with external investigations assuming the people that would be playing jury are qualified. They need to have training themselves.

Founded complaints should be protected especially against superiors. I think you will find that leadership will be the target of internal complaints if an officer has protection. With that being said, if its unfounded, termination should be an option.

Psyc evals aren't a bad thing. Some people cannot deal with the stresses and that may help the cause for sure. I am literally listening to a podcast about that now.

The framework you laid out needs some work/detailing IMO but the bones would be ideal in my opinion.

Accountability in LE is incredibly important and like any job, if you define their duties and present it correctly, you will get better results.

One thing that nobody is talking about is that the police are being held 100% accountable for all of these problems and being demonized while we are ignoring the fact that there are indeed societal problems at play as well.
Old 06-16-2020, 03:09 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by BigBone View Post
Question for you: why should I have to show them my navy blue hat with emblem and say, "hey man, I'm on your side" just to get them to relax?

Is that right, and what about the many folks that don't have that advantage?

I am just not seeing the same type of behavior where I live. I know enough police officers to know that they all have bad days and I approach most interactions with police as if their day had SUCKED. Hands are visible, slow movements, etc.... I am a CCW guy but I learned that really early. Acting as though, "I pay your salary" won't get you anywhere

You always have the option to leave your hat in the console and roll the dice. I feel like there may be a sense of superiority seeing as you are retired from LEO in some capacity. You should know that not all of your fellow officers were 100% every day. Act accordingly
Old 06-16-2020, 03:29 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by ytmorris View Post
I am just not seeing the same type of behavior where I live. I know enough police officers to know that they all have bad days and I approach most interactions with police as if their day had SUCKED. Hands are visible, slow movements, etc.... I am a CCW guy but I learned that really early. Acting as though, "I pay your salary" won't get you anywhere

You always have the option to leave your hat in the console and roll the dice. I feel like there may be a sense of superiority seeing as you are retired from LEO in some capacity. You should know that not all of your fellow officers were 100% every day. Act accordingly
I am certain, just from our back and forth, that you are not the type I fear and that things in NC are likely different in many ways. Explain to me why a local sheriff's office should have a $700 million budget? That is a club, a politically active, very savvy, very lawyered-up club, or as they refer to themselves: the biggest gang in palm beach county.
Old 06-16-2020, 03:30 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by ytmorris View Post
You make some valid points. I don't know what yall have in SOFL, but we don't have massive pensions around here but departments aren't unionized either. I addressed the demilitarizing above. I feel as though I wan't officers to have the best tools they can get. The better the tool, the cleaner the job.

I am fine with external investigations assuming the people that would be playing jury are qualified. They need to have training themselves.

Founded complaints should be protected especially against superiors. I think you will find that leadership will be the target of internal complaints if an officer has protection. With that being said, if its unfounded, termination should be an option.

Psyc evals aren't a bad thing. Some people cannot deal with the stresses and that may help the cause for sure. I am literally listening to a podcast about that now.

The framework you laid out needs some work/detailing IMO but the bones would be ideal in my opinion.

Accountability in LE is incredibly important and like any job, if you define their duties and present it correctly, you will get better results.

One thing that nobody is talking about is that the police are being held 100% accountable for all of these problems and being demonized while we are ignoring the fact that there are indeed societal problems at play as well.
accountability, where have I read that before.

add to the list annual independent payroll audits. I am amazed at how many cops can be in two places at once.
Old 06-16-2020, 03:31 PM
  #111  
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I hear a lot about changing the dynamic on when police get called into mental heath situations. I don't have any problem with changing the escalation procedure so that those calls don't go to the police at first, but rather some other "mental heath resolver" organization. Let some local organization step up to the plate for those calls.

However, the police - and their unions - need to get ahead of this whole conversation. They need to form a solid understanding with the public and their local elected officials on exactly which calls go to those organizations and what to do if/when they then get escalated back to the police (when they get out of hand, which, as we've seen, is often).
Old 06-16-2020, 04:13 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by Cracker View Post
I have not worked at any small agencies but I dont know how you reform the human factor or shootings done und er stress (most of the time, resisting suspects but almost all are armed).

Now, I treat people how I would want to be treated and definitely think some cops need to learn how to deal with the public and not treat them poorly BUT when you are placed under arrest the public for reason thinks they can verbally and physically fight..
When i say i support logical reform or change at Law Enforcement agencies, i am 100% on board for up to date use of force policies. My example is Minneapolis PD, their policy should never have neck restraints and choke holds to put unconscious. So if you train someone wrong, you set them up for failure. But, damnit make a decision. Train what to do in scenarios. Give them multiple pathways that are approved. Don’t only train “here’s what not to do”.

And spot on with treatment of people. Some have no communication skills. Welcome to the current recruits.

Originally Posted by BigBone View Post
Look around, it has already happened, at least in South Florida. Militarized, mercenary police with high six-figure salaries, shaved heads and wrap-around sunglasses, bulging muscles and attitudes that go with it. Only goal is to make it though the shift and get home. Steroid use is rampant and no "good" officer can rat on another for fear of getting labeled and singled out. Smart citizens just try to bow down, stay out of their way and under the radar. There are never enough resources to actually solve or prevent crimes despite ENORMOUS, inconceivable funding, fat pensions and, of course, the free car. This is not a few bad apples, but rather, thousands and it starts at the top.

The good thing about the recent CVD shut down is that we got to see some of the other officers (assigned to menial tasks like helping out at parks and boat ramps), the ones that are not visibly juiced up. The ones that are not on a hair-trigger and that actually can smile, help and view their subjects, sorry, citizens as human beings and neighbors. Truly good individuals that must struggle with their colleague thugs everyday.

I spent years in federal law enforcement and it's not the local criminals that scare me or threaten my property but rather the unchecked, aggressive robocops. This is the issue our country is facing, whether we admit it or not.
Originally Posted by BigBone View Post
I am certain, just from our back and forth, that you are not the type I fear and that things in NC are likely different in many ways. Explain to me why a local sheriff's office should have a $700 million budget? That is a club, a politically active, very savvy, very lawyered-up club, or as they refer to themselves: the biggest gang in palm beach county.
I don’t even know how to respond to you. Because if you tell me you were FDLE, then that explains the pocket protector mentality. But if you were Federal, you had a pretty big budget. If you retired to South Florida, you had a nice retirement too. Here’s what i know, I can’t go retire there and try to keep up with the Joneses.

I assume you refer to Palm Beach County. $703 million budget to serve 1.4 million residents, operating costs and pay their people. Maybe y’all should lower your cost of living? Other wise, you’d be on point. Hillsborough county is 1.4 million residents and $500 million budget. We are $200+ million and half the population. You can’t expect to live a life of luxury with all the amenities and pay the butler in scraps. You should maybe get the whole fiscal budget and line item that out for us all.
Old 06-16-2020, 04:15 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by BigBone View Post
I am certain, just from our back and forth, that you are not the type I fear and that things in NC are likely different in many ways. Explain to me why a local sheriff's office should have a $700 million budget? That is a club, a politically active, very savvy, very lawyered-up club, or as they refer to themselves: the biggest gang in palm beach county.

I am not a LEO so there is really no reason to be concerned about me. I just try to be open minded and talk to as many people as I can from varying points of view.

The budgets in the 100s of millions of dollars is hard for me to comment on as it isn't something I am familiar with. I would want an audit to see where that money goes. Sounds like you have a much larger problem with the PBSD is filled with bad spending and tons of fat. It also sounds like there are a TON of employees and that the department has a lot of hats to wear. At first glance, I am in the camp of spending a billion as long as it can be articulated well and the plans are actually executable. Annual audits wouldn't bother me one bit. That's how the pencil pushers in the department should earn their wages.

We certainly have the PBA but that's as close as it gets as a club or "union" but we have our own set of problems to be addressed.

We see some of the "good ol' boy" system but it isn't as obvious as you say it is down there in SOFL.

Make no mistake, the "Thin Blue Line," certainly exists here under the guise of professional courtesy but most businesses extend professional courtesy.

I feel like we aren't that far apart, just approach it differently?

We can agree that accountability is important for LEO's across the country but the rest of the citizens have to behave as well.
Old 06-16-2020, 04:46 PM
  #114  
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How about defunding the piece of shit criminals that spend a lifetime of causing grief to their families and the public. Ever wonder why your taxes are so high. Depending on what state you live in 1/4, or more, of your taxes go directly to supporting the criminal justice system. What could you do with that money? It's a very large country there will always be a cop that gets carried away. But there are about a million pos criminals that get carried away to every cop that does. Since when are the criminals the good guys in this country. The only one's afraid of the dog catcher are the dogs. The news media throws a lot of gasoline on any leo issues to sell their product. Wake up people.

Last edited by FarallonDude; 06-16-2020 at 04:53 PM.
Old 06-16-2020, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by FarallonDude View Post
How about defunding the piece of shit criminals that spend a lifetime of causing grief to their families and the public. Ever wonder why your taxes are so high. Depending on what state you live in 1/4, or more, of your taxes go directly to supporting the criminal justice system. What could you do with that money? It's a very large country there will always be a cop that gets carried away. But there are about a million pos criminals that get carried away to every cop that does. Since when are the criminals the good guys in this country. The only one's afraid of the dog catcher are the dogs. The news media throws a lot of gasoline on any leo issues to sell their product. Wake up people.
Housing inmates is big business. Defunding it ain't gonna happen.
Old 06-16-2020, 05:14 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by km1125 View Post
I hear a lot about changing the dynamic on when police get called into mental heath situations. I don't have any problem with changing the escalation procedure so that those calls don't go to the police at first, but rather some other "mental heath resolver" organization. Let some local organization step up to the plate for those calls.

However, the police - and their unions - need to get ahead of this whole conversation. They need to form a solid understanding with the public and their local elected officials on exactly which calls go to those organizations and what to do if/when they then get escalated back to the police (when they get out of hand, which, as we've seen, is often).

So if it happens often - gets out of hand who are the mental health folks going to call. It would more than likely come full circle back to the police.
Old 06-16-2020, 05:15 PM
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Seems to me that there is a high percentage of mentally ill/grown up men that are mentally at 15yrs old
and the police never know what the next stop will be... I cant blame them! Soooo...how do you fix that?
Fix the mentally ill? Yup!! The police can't get a break.
Old 06-16-2020, 05:25 PM
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The only thing dumber sounding than defund police is defund criminals. It really is idiotic rhetoric and helps no one with anything and causes nothing but turmoil.
Old 06-16-2020, 05:30 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by stokes_landing View Post
The only thing dumber sounding than defund police is defund criminals. It really is idiotic rhetoric and helps no one with anything and causes nothing but turmoil.
Well what a party pooper you are.
Old 06-16-2020, 05:38 PM
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We need the ROBOCOP or maybe all the police must be black people and then end with that argument.

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