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Defund the Police - Serious Question

Old 06-16-2020, 05:09 AM
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I laugh at the throwing around the use of social workers.
Has anyone here met someone who has had a run in with any state social worker? DFCS or similar. Besides the fact that we need FEWER state employees, every time that there is a domestic and a social worker shows up, we all know who will get the sort end of the stick. If I had a dollar for every story here on THT of someone getting taken to the cleaners or losing visitation rights to their kids by an EX, I could have a great steak dinner. Social workers... I can see a car load of Karens showing up to make sure that the big bad man gets his due.

Then oversight committees. Nothing makes you second guess every decision more than knowing that everything that you do will be scrutinized by a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacks. The family of the guy shot in Atlanta says that the police should have just let him go and allow him to walk home. Now there is a precedent that needs to be set... SMDH.

I have been pulled over dozens of times and deserved it each time. I've even been held at gunpoint while the plain clothes deputy waited for backup. Multiple jurisdictions showed up and we went on our way with a mild warning. The way that you handle yourself in any situation has more effect on the outcome than anything else.
Old 06-16-2020, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by DoughnutToo View Post
First; If you expect every officer to go to a college/university to obtain a useless bachelors degree in criminal justice, you better start increasing the pay. Further more, I wouldn't even entertain that degree. However as with athletes, you cannot expect an officer or deputy to continue to fight and chase criminals at 20 years in. Your body is physically shot. A college degree would be better suited for the second career after you retire from LEO. Don't say they could be a supervisor, because those positions are fewer and someone has to leave in order for it to be filled. No one gives a crap if you have a degree in criminal justice. It's as useful as liberal arts.

Second; I think you need to go to your local department and ask for the fiscal budget so you can grasp the idea of where money is allocated. These are not corporations, where some run a bad business with an endless supply of money. From someone who actually has knowledge on this topic, training budgets are not what you think they are. I am sorry, but I think you should understand large financial budgets first from local government. The money to be used is either approved or not approved a year in advance by your city manager or county board members. Also, your city/county budgets don't actually reflect today's economic situation for another three years. EDIT: I CANNOT SPEAK FOR NEW YORK OR NEW JERSEY OR CALIFORNIA. THESE ARE CESS POOL GOVERNMENTS.

Third; The Atlanta PD shooting was a result of TWO things (my opinion). These officers were already scared to make the wrong choice during the fight. The country is at an uproar because of "police brutality", two officers from their department are already up a creek and they don't want to be next. So they try not to be rough with this guy. Being scared and worried about their decision will cost a life. Whether it is their's or another. There is no "justifying" it, bring that down here to my county and take my taser from me. Then fire said taser at me because you don't want to go to jail. I will shoot and kill you. It never should have got to that point to begin with, but it did. The suspect escalated this situation 100% into "I dont want to go to jail".



This literally just occurred in Atlanta at the Wendy's. And what i said above applies here.



If you can show me the factual history on your 300 years of bad police apples that would be great. Camden did not start from scratch. Contracting out to the county does not constitute starting from scratch. That's like saying Chrysler started out from scratch. No, they just tossed their problems to someone with a bigger workforce. We have done it with five cities in our county. They cannot afford to have a successful police department this day in age, so they pay us a "city contract agency agreement". We service their city, but the Deputies work for the county. You are suggesting that instead of enforcing traffic with financial citations, we walk up to the window and put a bullet in you. That is not even remotely what happens. I intend on giving you a warning or a traffic ticket. If you feel that you can run me over, crash into other civilians trying to get away or shoot me, sorry but it's gonna get messy. Should society allow you to make all the rules? Did you let your kids say, "NOT TODAY DAD! YOU CAN TAKE THAT BELT AND SHOVE IT OR I WILL KILL YOU" after they refused to follow your rules? If you allowed that in your house, I feel sorry for you. I feel confident you didn't, so why should being a responsible adult reacting to a bad decision be any different?



You sir are beyond spot on in each point you made. As a LEO, straight up thumbs up to you. Your first point I can't stress enough to people. Stop asking us to be your everything! "The police didn't even pull over when I had a flat tire/car broke down/ran out of gas". Do I look like AAA, tow service or road ranger? There are businesses out there for this. Pay them for the service you need! I support capitalism and local business. Many members of THT are business owners. No county/city/state worker should fix all your problems from your taxes. That is socialism. You guys would be mind blown with the stuff people call us to fix at their houses.



You can't hire enough social workers to solve this problem. And yes, a domestic violence call for service is the most dangerous. Followed by a traffic stop.



Absolutely. My job should be to enforce the law. Society is responsible for raising their children. End of story. And at no point in my childhood did I ever think, "I should commit a crime and run from the police because I don't want to go to jail." Maybe parents should, have the talk, to their kids about that. And no, no one is listening. That is why we have so many deranged individuals in society because we keep coddling them. Your last point, we don't have a union and I wouldn't be a part of one. We do, in fact, have a citizens review board annually. We get a knew Sheriff's Advisory Council every year, made up of county leaders and local business owners. Completely open book and transparent policy. When you have so many people in the community backing you because they see every cog in the machine, you're good to go. If a bad decision is made, I can promise you my agency addresses it and they are dealt with.



No agency has "tanks". We may have gear designed for the military and repurposed, but you also have technology designed for NASA that was repurposed. Made your life easier didn't it? An Armored Personnel Carrier (APC and/or MRAP) is not a mechanized war machine for us. It's sole purpose is to protect the people inside. Whether or not you understand this, a .308 rifle or 30-06 will absolutely destroy people and vehicles. Those are standard hunting rifles that I am more concerned with than AR15's. "He has an AR-15!" OH NO!!! Clearly, you have never had to be rescued while being trapped in a building where a suicidal maniac is shooting at the police and they are trying to save you because he set it on fire. As well as, the ability to drive into flooded residential areas and rescue citizens from their homes because a hurricane just put four feet of water in your house. So, please drop the rhetoric about local police stocking up on high-powered military vehicles and gear. Keeping the peace....show me where any of this bull crap over the last two weeks has been peaceful? And yes, criminals make criminals out of themselves. End of story.



You will never make everyone happy. Any business owner will tell you that. Sorry. We have the highest incarceration rates because we have the highest percentage of members in society that think it's okay to commit crime. We have the highest percentage of members in society who do not want to work or earn their way in life, they want to take and steal yours. I don't understand how people are so out of touch with society. Get out of the bubbles everyone is living in and look around. This is absolutely ludicrous that society is okay with constant crime by the same people over and over. Statistically, it is also generational. It's pathetic. Guilty of murder? Death penalty. All day, every day, every where. I promise you, you make repercussions for actions and crime will drop. I also know, that you cannot hire Flo and Jamie from Progressive and expect them to uphold your laws to people who refuse to obey the law. Good luck with that. Fix the problem at home with society. Stand up and say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Stop coddling people. Stop giving them money to sit at home. Stop giving them money to come up with some bull jive medical term to support their bad behavior. Stop allowing schools to create "Individual Education Plans", which for bad kids says they can scream in class or in the hallways. They are allowed to walk out and punch/kick/break things. They are allowed to verbally accost someone, because of their "condition". This is a learned behavior and a disservice. They turn 18 and that crap is not tolerated anymore. Congratulations, you now have criminals. Don't tell me I am full of crap. I LIVE THIS EVERY DAY!

Guys, I continually preach to people every day. I have one job; I either take a life to save a life. Or I sacrifice my life to save a life. That is the true job description. I encourage everyone, get into law enforcement. Please show me how we change all this because it isn't working. Society keeps wanting law enforcement to change, but society is the problem. I am mentally tired of hearing society crying "woe is me". Maybe I was raised in the south with manners, respect, courtesy, morals, ethics. Because that is about to be a lost art. We are REACTIVE!! We literally react to the problem at hand. Think about that, let it truly sink in. Law enforcement is absolutely reactive in nature. We try to be "proactive" because you think we need to be running around for 12 hours to "earn our pay", but our job is to answer calls for service in your community that has disrespectful individuals that would watch your house burn down with your family in it and film it, while you cry for them to call 911. "Sorry bruh, I'm live on instagram!"

I am sorry for the long response. It needs to be said. I will end with this; When you can end a fast food restaurant messing up my "cheeseburger with ketchup and cheese only" order, you can expect law enforcement to solve all your problems.

Old 06-16-2020, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by bakerjw View Post
I laugh at the throwing around the use of social workers.
Has anyone here met someone who has had a run in with any state social worker? DFCS or similar. Besides the fact that we need FEWER state employees, every time that there is a domestic and a social worker shows up, we all know who will get the sort end of the stick. If I had a dollar for every story here on THT of someone getting taken to the cleaners or losing visitation rights to their kids by an EX, I could have a great steak dinner. Social workers... I can see a car load of Karens showing up to make sure that the big bad man gets his due.

Then oversight committees. Nothing makes you second guess every decision more than knowing that everything that you do will be scrutinized by a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacks. The family of the guy shot in Atlanta says that the police should have just let him go and allow him to walk home. Now there is a precedent that needs to be set... SMDH.

I have been pulled over dozens of times and deserved it each time. I've even been held at gunpoint while the plain clothes deputy waited for backup. Multiple jurisdictions showed up and we went on our way with a mild warning. The way that you handle yourself in any situation has more effect on the outcome than anything else.
You are correct Sir !
Old 06-16-2020, 06:14 AM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by bakerjw View Post
I laugh at the throwing around the use of social workers.
Has anyone here met someone who has had a run in with any state social worker?
Yes, I agree. When I first heard this I wondered if they checked with the social workers first? Not sure too many would be wanting that job.
Old 06-16-2020, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by DoughnutToo View Post
First; If you expect every officer to go to a college/university to obtain a useless bachelors degree in criminal justice, you better start increasing the pay. Further more, I wouldn't even entertain that degree. However as with athletes, you cannot expect an officer or deputy to continue to fight and chase criminals at 20 years in. Your body is physically shot. A college degree would be better suited for the second career after you retire from LEO. Don't say they could be a supervisor, because those positions are fewer and someone has to leave in order for it to be filled. No one gives a crap if you have a degree in criminal justice. It's as useful as liberal arts.

Second; I think you need to go to your local department and ask for the fiscal budget so you can grasp the idea of where money is allocated. These are not corporations, where some run a bad business with an endless supply of money. From someone who actually has knowledge on this topic, training budgets are not what you think they are. I am sorry, but I think you should understand large financial budgets first from local government. The money to be used is either approved or not approved a year in advance by your city manager or county board members. Also, your city/county budgets don't actually reflect today's economic situation for another three years. EDIT: I CANNOT SPEAK FOR NEW YORK OR NEW JERSEY OR CALIFORNIA. THESE ARE CESS POOL GOVERNMENTS.

Third; The Atlanta PD shooting was a result of TWO things (my opinion). These officers were already scared to make the wrong choice during the fight. The country is at an uproar because of "police brutality", two officers from their department are already up a creek and they don't want to be next. So they try not to be rough with this guy. Being scared and worried about their decision will cost a life. Whether it is their's or another. There is no "justifying" it, bring that down here to my county and take my taser from me. Then fire said taser at me because you don't want to go to jail. I will shoot and kill you. It never should have got to that point to begin with, but it did. The suspect escalated this situation 100% into "I dont want to go to jail".



This literally just occurred in Atlanta at the Wendy's. And what i said above applies here.



If you can show me the factual history on your 300 years of bad police apples that would be great. Camden did not start from scratch. Contracting out to the county does not constitute starting from scratch. That's like saying Chrysler started out from scratch. No, they just tossed their problems to someone with a bigger workforce. We have done it with five cities in our county. They cannot afford to have a successful police department this day in age, so they pay us a "city contract agency agreement". We service their city, but the Deputies work for the county. You are suggesting that instead of enforcing traffic with financial citations, we walk up to the window and put a bullet in you. That is not even remotely what happens. I intend on giving you a warning or a traffic ticket. If you feel that you can run me over, crash into other civilians trying to get away or shoot me, sorry but it's gonna get messy. Should society allow you to make all the rules? Did you let your kids say, "NOT TODAY DAD! YOU CAN TAKE THAT BELT AND SHOVE IT OR I WILL KILL YOU" after they refused to follow your rules? If you allowed that in your house, I feel sorry for you. I feel confident you didn't, so why should being a responsible adult reacting to a bad decision be any different?



You sir are beyond spot on in each point you made. As a LEO, straight up thumbs up to you. Your first point I can't stress enough to people. Stop asking us to be your everything! "The police didn't even pull over when I had a flat tire/car broke down/ran out of gas". Do I look like AAA, tow service or road ranger? There are businesses out there for this. Pay them for the service you need! I support capitalism and local business. Many members of THT are business owners. No county/city/state worker should fix all your problems from your taxes. That is socialism. You guys would be mind blown with the stuff people call us to fix at their houses.



You can't hire enough social workers to solve this problem. And yes, a domestic violence call for service is the most dangerous. Followed by a traffic stop.



Absolutely. My job should be to enforce the law. Society is responsible for raising their children. End of story. And at no point in my childhood did I ever think, "I should commit a crime and run from the police because I don't want to go to jail." Maybe parents should, have the talk, to their kids about that. And no, no one is listening. That is why we have so many deranged individuals in society because we keep coddling them. Your last point, we don't have a union and I wouldn't be a part of one. We do, in fact, have a citizens review board annually. We get a knew Sheriff's Advisory Council every year, made up of county leaders and local business owners. Completely open book and transparent policy. When you have so many people in the community backing you because they see every cog in the machine, you're good to go. If a bad decision is made, I can promise you my agency addresses it and they are dealt with.



No agency has "tanks". We may have gear designed for the military and repurposed, but you also have technology designed for NASA that was repurposed. Made your life easier didn't it? An Armored Personnel Carrier (APC and/or MRAP) is not a mechanized war machine for us. It's sole purpose is to protect the people inside. Whether or not you understand this, a .308 rifle or 30-06 will absolutely destroy people and vehicles. Those are standard hunting rifles that I am more concerned with than AR15's. "He has an AR-15!" OH NO!!! Clearly, you have never had to be rescued while being trapped in a building where a suicidal maniac is shooting at the police and they are trying to save you because he set it on fire. As well as, the ability to drive into flooded residential areas and rescue citizens from their homes because a hurricane just put four feet of water in your house. So, please drop the rhetoric about local police stocking up on high-powered military vehicles and gear. Keeping the peace....show me where any of this bull crap over the last two weeks has been peaceful? And yes, criminals make criminals out of themselves. End of story.



You will never make everyone happy. Any business owner will tell you that. Sorry. We have the highest incarceration rates because we have the highest percentage of members in society that think it's okay to commit crime. We have the highest percentage of members in society who do not want to work or earn their way in life, they want to take and steal yours. I don't understand how people are so out of touch with society. Get out of the bubbles everyone is living in and look around. This is absolutely ludicrous that society is okay with constant crime by the same people over and over. Statistically, it is also generational. It's pathetic. Guilty of murder? Death penalty. All day, every day, every where. I promise you, you make repercussions for actions and crime will drop. I also know, that you cannot hire Flo and Jamie from Progressive and expect them to uphold your laws to people who refuse to obey the law. Good luck with that. Fix the problem at home with society. Stand up and say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Stop coddling people. Stop giving them money to sit at home. Stop giving them money to come up with some bull jive medical term to support their bad behavior. Stop allowing schools to create "Individual Education Plans", which for bad kids says they can scream in class or in the hallways. They are allowed to walk out and punch/kick/break things. They are allowed to verbally accost someone, because of their "condition". This is a learned behavior and a disservice. They turn 18 and that crap is not tolerated anymore. Congratulations, you now have criminals. Don't tell me I am full of crap. I LIVE THIS EVERY DAY!

Guys, I continually preach to people every day. I have one job; I either take a life to save a life. Or I sacrifice my life to save a life. That is the true job description. I encourage everyone, get into law enforcement. Please show me how we change all this because it isn't working. Society keeps wanting law enforcement to change, but society is the problem. I am mentally tired of hearing society crying "woe is me". Maybe I was raised in the south with manners, respect, courtesy, morals, ethics. Because that is about to be a lost art. We are REACTIVE!! We literally react to the problem at hand. Think about that, let it truly sink in. Law enforcement is absolutely reactive in nature. We try to be "proactive" because you think we need to be running around for 12 hours to "earn our pay", but our job is to answer calls for service in your community that has disrespectful individuals that would watch your house burn down with your family in it and film it, while you cry for them to call 911. "Sorry bruh, I'm live on instagram!"

I am sorry for the long response. It needs to be said. I will end with this; When you can end a fast food restaurant messing up my "cheeseburger with ketchup and cheese only" order, you can expect law enforcement to solve all your problems.
Great post. Ultimately, society will "show law enforcement how to change." At least society will demand change... and like any experienced managers in any corporation or bureaucracy, smart police managers and other smart people will come up with strategies to affect that change.

Here's the ugly reality no one wants to say out loud: you, as a street officer, have a limited range of choice to decide for yourself how you practice policing.

On the big things, the macro strategies and policies... it is ultimately the people - through their elected leaders and the managers who report to them - who decide how they are policed.

That is what is happening now, in all its ugly sausage making... hastened by the advent of ubiquitous video which has smacked America across the face with realities they were unaware of.

You may disagree with the changes, believe they are unnecessary, or will prove ineffective. I respect that. But at the end of the day you will only have two choices: stay and deliver on the people's demands for change, or go.
Old 06-16-2020, 06:29 AM
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Old 06-16-2020, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by nicecast View Post
Great post. Ultimately, society will "show law enforcement how to change." At least society will demand change... and like any experienced managers in any corporation or bureaucracy, smart police managers and other smart people will come up with strategies to affect that change.

Here's the ugly reality no one wants to say out loud: you, as a street officer, have a limited range of choice to decide for yourself how you practice policing.

On the big things, the macro strategies and policies... it is ultimately the people - through their elected leaders and the managers who report to them - who decide how they are policed.

That is what is happening now, in all its ugly sausage making... hastened by the advent of ubiquitous video which has smacked America across the face with realities they were unaware of.

You may disagree with the changes, believe they are unnecessary, or will prove ineffective. I respect that. But at the end of the day you will only have two choices: stay and deliver on the people's demands for change, or go.
I encourage logical change and reform. I do know many agencies need it. However, we cannot tryout Demolition Man in real life.
Old 06-16-2020, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by DoughnutToo View Post
First; If you expect every officer to go to a college/university to obtain a useless bachelors degree in criminal justice, you better start increasing the pay. Further more, I wouldn't even entertain that degree. However as with athletes, you cannot expect an officer or deputy to continue to fight and chase criminals at 20 years in. Your body is physically shot. A college degree would be better suited for the second career after you retire from LEO. Don't say they could be a supervisor, because those positions are fewer and someone has to leave in order for it to be filled. No one gives a crap if you have a degree in criminal justice. It's as useful as liberal arts.

Second; I think you need to go to your local department and ask for the fiscal budget so you can grasp the idea of where money is allocated. These are not corporations, where some run a bad business with an endless supply of money. From someone who actually has knowledge on this topic, training budgets are not what you think they are. I am sorry, but I think you should understand large financial budgets first from local government. The money to be used is either approved or not approved a year in advance by your city manager or county board members. Also, your city/county budgets don't actually reflect today's economic situation for another three years. EDIT: I CANNOT SPEAK FOR NEW YORK OR NEW JERSEY OR CALIFORNIA. THESE ARE CESS POOL GOVERNMENTS.

Third; The Atlanta PD shooting was a result of TWO things (my opinion). These officers were already scared to make the wrong choice during the fight. The country is at an uproar because of "police brutality", two officers from their department are already up a creek and they don't want to be next. So they try not to be rough with this guy. Being scared and worried about their decision will cost a life. Whether it is their's or another. There is no "justifying" it, bring that down here to my county and take my taser from me. Then fire said taser at me because you don't want to go to jail. I will shoot and kill you. It never should have got to that point to begin with, but it did. The suspect escalated this situation 100% into "I dont want to go to jail".



This literally just occurred in Atlanta at the Wendy's. And what i said above applies here.



If you can show me the factual history on your 300 years of bad police apples that would be great. Camden did not start from scratch. Contracting out to the county does not constitute starting from scratch. That's like saying Chrysler started out from scratch. No, they just tossed their problems to someone with a bigger workforce. We have done it with five cities in our county. They cannot afford to have a successful police department this day in age, so they pay us a "city contract agency agreement". We service their city, but the Deputies work for the county. You are suggesting that instead of enforcing traffic with financial citations, we walk up to the window and put a bullet in you. That is not even remotely what happens. I intend on giving you a warning or a traffic ticket. If you feel that you can run me over, crash into other civilians trying to get away or shoot me, sorry but it's gonna get messy. Should society allow you to make all the rules? Did you let your kids say, "NOT TODAY DAD! YOU CAN TAKE THAT BELT AND SHOVE IT OR I WILL KILL YOU" after they refused to follow your rules? If you allowed that in your house, I feel sorry for you. I feel confident you didn't, so why should being a responsible adult reacting to a bad decision be any different?



You sir are beyond spot on in each point you made. As a LEO, straight up thumbs up to you. Your first point I can't stress enough to people. Stop asking us to be your everything! "The police didn't even pull over when I had a flat tire/car broke down/ran out of gas". Do I look like AAA, tow service or road ranger? There are businesses out there for this. Pay them for the service you need! I support capitalism and local business. Many members of THT are business owners. No county/city/state worker should fix all your problems from your taxes. That is socialism. You guys would be mind blown with the stuff people call us to fix at their houses.



You can't hire enough social workers to solve this problem. And yes, a domestic violence call for service is the most dangerous. Followed by a traffic stop.



Absolutely. My job should be to enforce the law. Society is responsible for raising their children. End of story. And at no point in my childhood did I ever think, "I should commit a crime and run from the police because I don't want to go to jail." Maybe parents should, have the talk, to their kids about that. And no, no one is listening. That is why we have so many deranged individuals in society because we keep coddling them. Your last point, we don't have a union and I wouldn't be a part of one. We do, in fact, have a citizens review board annually. We get a knew Sheriff's Advisory Council every year, made up of county leaders and local business owners. Completely open book and transparent policy. When you have so many people in the community backing you because they see every cog in the machine, you're good to go. If a bad decision is made, I can promise you my agency addresses it and they are dealt with.



No agency has "tanks". We may have gear designed for the military and repurposed, but you also have technology designed for NASA that was repurposed. Made your life easier didn't it? An Armored Personnel Carrier (APC and/or MRAP) is not a mechanized war machine for us. It's sole purpose is to protect the people inside. Whether or not you understand this, a .308 rifle or 30-06 will absolutely destroy people and vehicles. Those are standard hunting rifles that I am more concerned with than AR15's. "He has an AR-15!" OH NO!!! Clearly, you have never had to be rescued while being trapped in a building where a suicidal maniac is shooting at the police and they are trying to save you because he set it on fire. As well as, the ability to drive into flooded residential areas and rescue citizens from their homes because a hurricane just put four feet of water in your house. So, please drop the rhetoric about local police stocking up on high-powered military vehicles and gear. Keeping the peace....show me where any of this bull crap over the last two weeks has been peaceful? And yes, criminals make criminals out of themselves. End of story.



You will never make everyone happy. Any business owner will tell you that. Sorry. We have the highest incarceration rates because we have the highest percentage of members in society that think it's okay to commit crime. We have the highest percentage of members in society who do not want to work or earn their way in life, they want to take and steal yours. I don't understand how people are so out of touch with society. Get out of the bubbles everyone is living in and look around. This is absolutely ludicrous that society is okay with constant crime by the same people over and over. Statistically, it is also generational. It's pathetic. Guilty of murder? Death penalty. All day, every day, every where. I promise you, you make repercussions for actions and crime will drop. I also know, that you cannot hire Flo and Jamie from Progressive and expect them to uphold your laws to people who refuse to obey the law. Good luck with that. Fix the problem at home with society. Stand up and say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Stop coddling people. Stop giving them money to sit at home. Stop giving them money to come up with some bull jive medical term to support their bad behavior. Stop allowing schools to create "Individual Education Plans", which for bad kids says they can scream in class or in the hallways. They are allowed to walk out and punch/kick/break things. They are allowed to verbally accost someone, because of their "condition". This is a learned behavior and a disservice. They turn 18 and that crap is not tolerated anymore. Congratulations, you now have criminals. Don't tell me I am full of crap. I LIVE THIS EVERY DAY!

Guys, I continually preach to people every day. I have one job; I either take a life to save a life. Or I sacrifice my life to save a life. That is the true job description. I encourage everyone, get into law enforcement. Please show me how we change all this because it isn't working. Society keeps wanting law enforcement to change, but society is the problem. I am mentally tired of hearing society crying "woe is me". Maybe I was raised in the south with manners, respect, courtesy, morals, ethics. Because that is about to be a lost art. We are REACTIVE!! We literally react to the problem at hand. Think about that, let it truly sink in. Law enforcement is absolutely reactive in nature. We try to be "proactive" because you think we need to be running around for 12 hours to "earn our pay", but our job is to answer calls for service in your community that has disrespectful individuals that would watch your house burn down with your family in it and film it, while you cry for them to call 911. "Sorry bruh, I'm live on instagram!"

I am sorry for the long response. It needs to be said. I will end with this; When you can end a fast food restaurant messing up my "cheeseburger with ketchup and cheese only" order, you can expect law enforcement to solve all your problems.
Finally! Someone who actually knows what he's talking about. Thanks for your service sir
Old 06-16-2020, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by slickster View Post
Your reply is also pretty ignorant, she was killed as the cops busted in and the shooting started, the man in the house opened fire, shoot at the cops and they will probably shoot back....the no knock warrent set the events in motion, the cops were serving a legal warrent, signed by a judge, she was in the wrong place at the wrong time, very sad and senseless, blame the judge and administration, not the street cops, what does this have to do with race btw? She was shot because she was black?
My comment was not based on what is being talked about here, it was solely based off of what was posted, " Has anyone mentioned that police will leave you alone if you don't do illegal stuff???
Old 06-16-2020, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by DoughnutToo View Post
I encourage logical change and reform. I do know many agencies need it. However, we cannot tryout Demolition Man in real life.

Old 06-16-2020, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by nicecast View Post
Great post. Ultimately, society will "show law enforcement how to change." At least society will demand change... and like any experienced managers in any corporation or bureaucracy, smart police managers and other smart people will come up with strategies to affect that change.

Here's the ugly reality no one wants to say out loud: you, as a street officer, have a limited range of choice to decide for yourself how you practice policing.

On the big things, the macro strategies and policies... it is ultimately the people - through their elected leaders and the managers who report to them - who decide how they are policed.

That is what is happening now, in all its ugly sausage making... hastened by the advent of ubiquitous video which has smacked America across the face with realities they were unaware of.

You may disagree with the changes, believe they are unnecessary, or will prove ineffective. I respect that. But at the end of the day you will only have two choices: stay and deliver on the people's demands for change, or go.
Old 06-16-2020, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by DoughnutToo View Post
I encourage logical change and reform. I do know many agencies need it. However, we cannot tryout Demolition Man in real life.
I have not worked at any small agencies but I dont know how you reform the human factor or shootings done und er stress (most of the time, resisting suspects but almost all are armed).

Now, I treat people how I would want to be treated and definitely think some cops need to learn how to deal with the public and not treat them poorly BUT when you are placed under arrest the public for reason thinks they can verbally and physically fight..
Old 06-16-2020, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by nicecast View Post
Seriously? That's not even close to illegal. Lots of completely innocent people have "prior relationships with drug dealers."

I've known a few - do I need to keep my blinds closed and doors bolted?
There have to be 2 sides to the equation. Lay down with dogs and wake up with fleas is one of them. Everyone here probably had scrutiny of their friends by their parents when growing up to avoid exactly these sorts of issues. And everyone here probably does the same with their kids and assumes the kids will carry forward good decision making skills about who to associate with or allow to their home. Find out someone is involved in seamy activities aka "felonies", drop them like a hot rock.

This situation is exactly why.

I don't happen to think these police home invasions should be allowed for something like drugs so I'm not actually justifying what happened to her. They were watching the guy for weeks so there's no emergency requiring this kind of behavior.

But it seems that being drunk and stoned in a car in a major city and then struggling with the cops, drunk and asleep in a car at a restaurant and then struggling with a cops, or associating with scumbags and letting them continue to visit your home all seem to magnify the chances of dangerous encounters with police. Why is it certain people can't seem to get that message and act accordingly?

And seriously, you have had ongoing associations with people who've been repeatedly charged with drug crimes, and "possession of a gun by a convicted felon" like Mr Glover? Doubt it.
Old 06-16-2020, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Fish'nFool View Post
I keep hearing this talk about "reforms" but none of these action groups or bureaucrats have yet to explain what they mean by that.

Do policy changes really mitigate bad apples from making bad decisions?
No, it doesn't. If you look at all of the plumbers in the country, most are decent, but a very small percentage are complete scumbags. It has nothing to do with being a plumber - if you have a large enough group, you'll find people that are jerks. It's difficult to get to 100% good people, and it's a spectrum with varying degrees. It's not perfect, but I've yet to find a system that is.

There was a criminal committing a criminal act. The police reacted poorly, resulting in his death. That criminal did not deserve to die, and those specific police officers should be held accountable. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater and forget about the other 3 million police interactions where they went above and beyond. Anecdotal and systemic are not the same thing.

So what about reforms? I don't think there is an easy solution. If there was, we would have done it already. Instead, we'll pass some stupid knee-jerk legislation that does nothing to solve the problem but it will appease all of the bozos pounding their fist saying SomethingMustBeDone.
Old 06-16-2020, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by DoughnutToo View Post
First; If you expect every officer to go to a college/university to obtain a useless bachelors degree in criminal justice, you better start increasing the pay. Further more, I wouldn't even entertain that degree. However as with athletes, you cannot expect an officer or deputy to continue to fight and chase criminals at 20 years in. Your body is physically shot. A college degree would be better suited for the second career after you retire from LEO. Don't say they could be a supervisor, because those positions are fewer and someone has to leave in order for it to be filled. No one gives a crap if you have a degree in criminal justice. It's as useful as liberal arts.

Second; I think you need to go to your local department and ask for the fiscal budget so you can grasp the idea of where money is allocated. These are not corporations, where some run a bad business with an endless supply of money. From someone who actually has knowledge on this topic, training budgets are not what you think they are. I am sorry, but I think you should understand large financial budgets first from local government. The money to be used is either approved or not approved a year in advance by your city manager or county board members. Also, your city/county budgets don't actually reflect today's economic situation for another three years. EDIT: I CANNOT SPEAK FOR NEW YORK OR NEW JERSEY OR CALIFORNIA. THESE ARE CESS POOL GOVERNMENTS.

Third; The Atlanta PD shooting was a result of TWO things (my opinion). These officers were already scared to make the wrong choice during the fight. The country is at an uproar because of "police brutality", two officers from their department are already up a creek and they don't want to be next. So they try not to be rough with this guy. Being scared and worried about their decision will cost a life. Whether it is their's or another. There is no "justifying" it, bring that down here to my county and take my taser from me. Then fire said taser at me because you don't want to go to jail. I will shoot and kill you. It never should have got to that point to begin with, but it did. The suspect escalated this situation 100% into "I dont want to go to jail".



This literally just occurred in Atlanta at the Wendy's. And what i said above applies here.



If you can show me the factual history on your 300 years of bad police apples that would be great. Camden did not start from scratch. Contracting out to the county does not constitute starting from scratch. That's like saying Chrysler started out from scratch. No, they just tossed their problems to someone with a bigger workforce. We have done it with five cities in our county. They cannot afford to have a successful police department this day in age, so they pay us a "city contract agency agreement". We service their city, but the Deputies work for the county. You are suggesting that instead of enforcing traffic with financial citations, we walk up to the window and put a bullet in you. That is not even remotely what happens. I intend on giving you a warning or a traffic ticket. If you feel that you can run me over, crash into other civilians trying to get away or shoot me, sorry but it's gonna get messy. Should society allow you to make all the rules? Did you let your kids say, "NOT TODAY DAD! YOU CAN TAKE THAT BELT AND SHOVE IT OR I WILL KILL YOU" after they refused to follow your rules? If you allowed that in your house, I feel sorry for you. I feel confident you didn't, so why should being a responsible adult reacting to a bad decision be any different?



You sir are beyond spot on in each point you made. As a LEO, straight up thumbs up to you. Your first point I can't stress enough to people. Stop asking us to be your everything! "The police didn't even pull over when I had a flat tire/car broke down/ran out of gas". Do I look like AAA, tow service or road ranger? There are businesses out there for this. Pay them for the service you need! I support capitalism and local business. Many members of THT are business owners. No county/city/state worker should fix all your problems from your taxes. That is socialism. You guys would be mind blown with the stuff people call us to fix at their houses.



You can't hire enough social workers to solve this problem. And yes, a domestic violence call for service is the most dangerous. Followed by a traffic stop.



Absolutely. My job should be to enforce the law. Society is responsible for raising their children. End of story. And at no point in my childhood did I ever think, "I should commit a crime and run from the police because I don't want to go to jail." Maybe parents should, have the talk, to their kids about that. And no, no one is listening. That is why we have so many deranged individuals in society because we keep coddling them. Your last point, we don't have a union and I wouldn't be a part of one. We do, in fact, have a citizens review board annually. We get a knew Sheriff's Advisory Council every year, made up of county leaders and local business owners. Completely open book and transparent policy. When you have so many people in the community backing you because they see every cog in the machine, you're good to go. If a bad decision is made, I can promise you my agency addresses it and they are dealt with.



No agency has "tanks". We may have gear designed for the military and repurposed, but you also have technology designed for NASA that was repurposed. Made your life easier didn't it? An Armored Personnel Carrier (APC and/or MRAP) is not a mechanized war machine for us. It's sole purpose is to protect the people inside. Whether or not you understand this, a .308 rifle or 30-06 will absolutely destroy people and vehicles. Those are standard hunting rifles that I am more concerned with than AR15's. "He has an AR-15!" OH NO!!! Clearly, you have never had to be rescued while being trapped in a building where a suicidal maniac is shooting at the police and they are trying to save you because he set it on fire. As well as, the ability to drive into flooded residential areas and rescue citizens from their homes because a hurricane just put four feet of water in your house. So, please drop the rhetoric about local police stocking up on high-powered military vehicles and gear. Keeping the peace....show me where any of this bull crap over the last two weeks has been peaceful? And yes, criminals make criminals out of themselves. End of story.



You will never make everyone happy. Any business owner will tell you that. Sorry. We have the highest incarceration rates because we have the highest percentage of members in society that think it's okay to commit crime. We have the highest percentage of members in society who do not want to work or earn their way in life, they want to take and steal yours. I don't understand how people are so out of touch with society. Get out of the bubbles everyone is living in and look around. This is absolutely ludicrous that society is okay with constant crime by the same people over and over. Statistically, it is also generational. It's pathetic. Guilty of murder? Death penalty. All day, every day, every where. I promise you, you make repercussions for actions and crime will drop. I also know, that you cannot hire Flo and Jamie from Progressive and expect them to uphold your laws to people who refuse to obey the law. Good luck with that. Fix the problem at home with society. Stand up and say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Stop coddling people. Stop giving them money to sit at home. Stop giving them money to come up with some bull jive medical term to support their bad behavior. Stop allowing schools to create "Individual Education Plans", which for bad kids says they can scream in class or in the hallways. They are allowed to walk out and punch/kick/break things. They are allowed to verbally accost someone, because of their "condition". This is a learned behavior and a disservice. They turn 18 and that crap is not tolerated anymore. Congratulations, you now have criminals. Don't tell me I am full of crap. I LIVE THIS EVERY DAY!

Guys, I continually preach to people every day. I have one job; I either take a life to save a life. Or I sacrifice my life to save a life. That is the true job description. I encourage everyone, get into law enforcement. Please show me how we change all this because it isn't working. Society keeps wanting law enforcement to change, but society is the problem. I am mentally tired of hearing society crying "woe is me". Maybe I was raised in the south with manners, respect, courtesy, morals, ethics. Because that is about to be a lost art. We are REACTIVE!! We literally react to the problem at hand. Think about that, let it truly sink in. Law enforcement is absolutely reactive in nature. We try to be "proactive" because you think we need to be running around for 12 hours to "earn our pay", but our job is to answer calls for service in your community that has disrespectful individuals that would watch your house burn down with your family in it and film it, while you cry for them to call 911. "Sorry bruh, I'm live on instagram!"

I am sorry for the long response. It needs to be said. I will end with this; When you can end a fast food restaurant messing up my "cheeseburger with ketchup and cheese only" order, you can expect law enforcement to solve all your problems.
This should be the post of year, spot on and thanks for your service
Old 06-16-2020, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ytmorris View Post
That’s the beauty of it in that we don’t have to agree 100%. My sister would very much fall in line with your thought process. We talked this weekend briefly but she is an all or nothing type of person so it didn’t go far. Her husband though is easier to talk to and we kind of agreed that one major problem is that no one has a real solution. People like me know there needs to be change in some form but are resistant until there is another plan on the table to choose from and then there are others that say, tear it all down and we will sort it out after.

I am not going to argue that policing is perfect because it isn’t but people are marching in the streets because less than 1/4% of police contacts turn ugly and so the answer is to tear the entire system down? There is merit in the racism argument but to speak on that you have to understand a few things such as police statistics and how they can be manipulated as well as the fact that some cops slip through the cracks and are terrible people or racist pieces of shit. I understand that there is more being said, but I am keeping it tighter to the spirit of this thread.
Thumbs up to us for having differing view points, and talking through them like civil people!
Old 06-16-2020, 12:21 PM
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Doughnuts indeed!



Old 06-16-2020, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by N D H View Post
https://www.blackwaterusa.com/ I think they could handle the job. I wonder what would happen then?
Look around, it has already happened, at least in South Florida. Militarized, mercenary police with high six-figure salaries, shaved heads and wrap-around sunglasses, bulging muscles and attitudes that go with it. Only goal is to make it though the shift and get home. Steroid use is rampant and no "good" officer can rat on another for fear of getting labeled and singled out. Smart citizens just try to bow down, stay out of their way and under the radar. There are never enough resources to actually solve or prevent crimes despite ENORMOUS, inconceivable funding, fat pensions and, of course, the free car. This is not a few bad apples, but rather, thousands and it starts at the top.

The good thing about the recent CVD shut down is that we got to see some of the other officers (assigned to menial tasks like helping out at parks and boat ramps), the ones that are not visibly juiced up. The ones that are not on a hair-trigger and that actually can smile, help and view their subjects, sorry, citizens as human beings and neighbors. Truly good individuals that must struggle with their colleague thugs everyday.

I spent years in federal law enforcement and it's not the local criminals that scare me or threaten my property but rather the unchecked, aggressive robocops. This is the issue our country is facing, whether we admit it or not.
Old 06-16-2020, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by RusticHills View Post
Yep, 31 years at this point..

I am done..

I did not want to leave my career into retirement on a low note, but I feel I have no choice now..

I have 1.5 years left until early retirement. I wanted to go longer, but I can't stomach it anymore.

If I'm forced to shoot someone in 2020, I'm likely to be charged with murder, and/or suspended without pay, lambasted by the media, doxed by the mob and receive no support from the chain of command as they all politically-prostrate themselves at the foot of the mob in self preservation.. I plan to do the least amount possible and avoid any situations that put me in a position where I have to use violence to defend the public.. That's what the dems and libs want and I'm in self-preservation mode at this point. I'm sorry it's come to this, but many officers are of the same mind and our communities are going to be a lot less safe in the near future..
This is great--You will be one of the finest officers in the nation. It took courage to write what you wrote, but maybe it will do some good. Maybe others will do the same.
Old 06-16-2020, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by BigBone View Post
This is great--You will be one of the finest officers in the nation. It took courage to write what you wrote, but maybe it will do some good. Maybe others will do the same.
That's your takeaway from what I wrote?

You spent many years in FED LE? Your anti-police rhetoric on this and other topics tells me otherwise.

Something is missing here..

Did you get fired and have an axe to grind or something?



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