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Defund the Police - Serious Question

Old 06-15-2020, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bsmit24 View Post
Seems as though we have criminalized almost all aspects of our lives to varying degrees. Not the doing of the police but the politicians ask them to enforce it all and the police comply. Maybe it is time to re-evaluate that and decriminalize a lot of things. For a 'free' country we have a significant number of our citizens in prison.

Not every poor decision or vice in life is or should be "Illegal".
Actually in Florida no A lot of whar we do is NOT criminal in nature but we are expected to help. From Baker Acts (mental health custody), Marchman act (alcohol custody) to civil issues and other issues.. The police are the one shouldered with it all...

Domestics are dangerous, no doubt but I have had more serious and potentially fatal incidents with mentally ill, so many have weapons...(Guns, machetes, knives or whatever). Mentally illness calls were always one of my most dangerous..
Old 06-15-2020, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ytmorris View Post
I'd like to point out the difference in training between the two. If you want to hold them to a higher standard, give them the tools to do it. Don't cuff them and then send them into a fight on someone else behalf which is kind of their job description. They are policing on behalf of the citizens and running down trouble that they don't want so we can live in a civilized community which is loosely defined at best depending on who you are talking too.

You want to dismantle/defund/demilitarize the PD in ILM, I'd like to see your plan to put it back together.
I'm going to have to disagree with some of this. If the police were policing on behalf of their citizens, there wouldn't be thousands of people in every city out protesting. Obviously the citizens don't agree with how they are being policed.

I'll be the first to admit, I'm not an expert on everything. That is why we live in a republic, where we vote in people that are supposed to know better, and people who are experts in a given field are supposed to run things. What I do know, is the current system is not working that well. The people aren't happy, the police aren't happy, we have the highest GDP, the highest incarceration rates, and crime still happens every day.

In that vain, I completely support dismantling, defunding, restructuring, or whatever you want to call it that puts together a new system that works better for all those involved.
Old 06-15-2020, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by beber View Post
I'm going to have to disagree with some of this. If the police were policing on behalf of their citizens, there wouldn't be thousands of people in every city out protesting. Obviously the citizens don't agree with how they are being policed.

I'll be the first to admit, I'm not an expert on everything. That is why we live in a republic, where we vote in people that are supposed to know better, and people who are experts in a given field are supposed to run things. What I do know, is the current system is not working that well. The people aren't happy, the police aren't happy, we have the highest GDP, the highest incarceration rates, and crime still happens every day.

In that vain, I completely support dismantling, defunding, restructuring, or whatever you want to call it that puts together a new system that works better for all those involved.
Thatís the beauty of it in that we donít have to agree 100%. My sister would very much fall in line with your thought process. We talked this weekend briefly but she is an all or nothing type of person so it didnít go far. Her husband though is easier to talk to and we kind of agreed that one major problem is that no one has a real solution. People like me know there needs to be change in some form but are resistant until there is another plan on the table to choose from and then there are others that say, tear it all down and we will sort it out after.

I am not going to argue that policing is perfect because it isnít but people are marching in the streets because less than 1/4% of police contacts turn ugly and so the answer is to tear the entire system down? There is merit in the racism argument but to speak on that you have to understand a few things such as police statistics and how they can be manipulated as well as the fact that some cops slip through the cracks and are terrible people or racist pieces of shit. I understand that there is more being said, but I am keeping it tighter to the spirit of this thread.
Old 06-15-2020, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ronp364 View Post
She had a prior relationship with a drug dealer.
Seriously? That's not even close to illegal. Lots of completely innocent people have "prior relationships with drug dealers."

I've known a few - do I need to keep my blinds closed and doors bolted?
Old 06-15-2020, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by slickster View Post
Your reply is also pretty ignorant, she was killed as the cops busted in and the shooting started, the man in the house opened fire, shoot at the cops and they will probably shoot back....the no knock warrent set the events in motion, the cops were serving a legal warrent, signed by a judge, she was in the wrong place at the wrong time, very sad and senseless, blame the judge and administration, not the street cops, what does this have to do with race btw? She was shot because she was black?
lmao. The cops went to the wrong house! Massive screwup. Warrant was for 201 n street. They went to 101 n street. Cops should be tried for murder.
Old 06-15-2020, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Cracker View Post
Actually in Florida no A lot of whar we do is NOT criminal in nature but we are expected to help. From Baker Acts (mental health custody), Marchman act (alcohol custody) to civil issues and other issues.. The police are the one shouldered with it all...

Domestics are dangerous, no doubt but I have had more serious and potentially fatal incidents with mentally ill, so many have weapons...(Guns, machetes, knives or whatever). Mentally illness calls were always one of my most dangerous..
While I do believe policing in the US needs to be reformed, I don't think changing policing alone can be the only change if a significant positive outcome is expected. That is no reason not to reform and address the concerns/issues you mention but effecting change on the cultural, political, and socioeconomic side will be much harder imho.
Old 06-15-2020, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ncmallard78 View Post
lmao. The cops went to the wrong house! Massive screwup. Warrant was for 201 n street. They went to 101 n street. Cops should be tried for murder.
Maybe if they had more funding their gps unit would have been better...
Old 06-15-2020, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by dave8311 View Post
Maybe if they had more funding their gps unit would have been better...
Exactly, bad decisions at every turn, cops break down the door, occupants open fire, cops open fire... Bad stuff happened....how that becomes a race issue, I don't know.....
Old 06-15-2020, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by simonj31 View Post
Im not sure if you're serious or not. But it is extremely relevant to the image you posted. Meaning, she was not doing anything illegal but was still contacted (murdered) by the police.
You do know that she was accidentally killed by a stray bullet fired by an officer engaged in a shootout with her armed boyfriend, donít you? It wasnít ever on CNN or MSNBC so itís understandable if you donít.
Old 06-15-2020, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by BigRockCabo View Post
You do know that she was accidentally killed by a stray bullet fired by an officer engaged in a shootout with her armed boyfriend, donít you? It wasnít ever on CNN or MSNBC so itís understandable if you donít.
He legally had a gun, defending his family against an illegal government raid on the wrong house. If I ďaccidentallyĒ kill people breaking into their house Iím going to jail for a long time.
Old 06-15-2020, 07:28 PM
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I’ve met a lot of police officers and even those just out of the academy can give you a thorough run down of what is and isn’t legal behavior.

Instead of everybody yapping about more “training” for police why don’t we try educating the public (start in Junior High) on what’s legal versus illegal behavior? Not that your average street level drug dealer doesn’t know that his product is illegal but how many kids know that resisting arrest is a felony? But then again, when -snip- eliminate bail for a host of crimes, what penalty is there to be afraid of? If we keep escalating the level of crime necessary to receive punishment, the level and severity of crime will go up proportionally.

Last edited by THT Mod 18; 06-16-2020 at 07:57 PM. Reason: Pol ref
Old 06-15-2020, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by BigRockCabo View Post
Iíve met a lot of police officers and even those just out of the academy can give you a thorough run down of what is and isnít legal behavior.

Instead of everybody yapping about more ďtrainingĒ for police why donít we try educating the public (start in Junior High) on whatís legal versus illegal behavior? Not that your average street level drug dealer doesnít know that his product is illegal but how many kids know that resisting arrest is a felony? But then again, when liberal politicians eliminate bail for a host of crimes, what penalty is there to be afraid of? If we keep escalating the level of crime necessary to receive punishment, the level and severity of crime will go up proportionally.
Now we're getting somewhere. That Academy should be the model for every police Academy.

Old 06-15-2020, 07:43 PM
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The government killing people sleeping in their homes should be held to a very high standard. (see:Duncan Lemp, Breonna Taylor, et.al.)
The statistics do not support the fact that black Americans die from police encounters in greater rates than whites, that is a media divide and conquer tactic.
Old 06-15-2020, 07:46 PM
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Ok if we eliminate laws we won't need police or lawmakers that will save us all some money to spend on ammo to defend ourselves in a crazy world.if you can't arrest criminals any longer why have laws.i used to be anti-communist until last week but this schnitt don't happen in China.
Old 06-15-2020, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Shoreacresgrown View Post
More training has to be the biggest, most valuable thing that the police force NEEDS. Along with mandatory XX amount of hours worth of college level criminal justice courses. Then lets get them aligned with how to de-escalate a scenario without excessive use of force. Other countries do it regularly and successfully, and that could be due to a population with less access/availability to guns/lethal weapons.

It's vitally important to recognize the difference between defunding and disbanding. Just take a look at all of these city budgets and how much money is allocated to the police departments. And for what, to stock up on ammunition/guns? We need to spread the budget to areas lacking vital funding. Our school systems for example. How many times have you heard a teacher say they needed to purchase goods for their classroom out of their own pocket? This is just one, basic, high level area where funding is needed. We need to invest more in our communities versus the people that "protect" them. I don't discount the importance of police, and honestly believe it's just time to reevaluate their presence in society and transform how they interact with all of us.

I just heard on the local FM talk radio station this morning how police have to make split second decisions for their lives (justifying the Atlanta shooting that recently happened). Do I understand this, absolutely. At the same time, we should recognize that not everyone that enters the police academy (regardless of physical ability) is meant to, or can handle being put in those situations. That's where rigorous psychological testing should occur prior to entering a position where you have the decision to take someone's life.
First; If you expect every officer to go to a college/university to obtain a useless bachelors degree in criminal justice, you better start increasing the pay. Further more, I wouldn't even entertain that degree. However as with athletes, you cannot expect an officer or deputy to continue to fight and chase criminals at 20 years in. Your body is physically shot. A college degree would be better suited for the second career after you retire from LEO. Don't say they could be a supervisor, because those positions are fewer and someone has to leave in order for it to be filled. No one gives a crap if you have a degree in criminal justice. It's as useful as liberal arts.

Second; I think you need to go to your local department and ask for the fiscal budget so you can grasp the idea of where money is allocated. These are not corporations, where some run a bad business with an endless supply of money. From someone who actually has knowledge on this topic, training budgets are not what you think they are. I am sorry, but I think you should understand large financial budgets first from local government. The money to be used is either approved or not approved a year in advance by your city manager or county board members. Also, your city/county budgets don't actually reflect today's economic situation for another three years. EDIT: I CANNOT SPEAK FOR NEW YORK OR NEW JERSEY OR CALIFORNIA. THESE ARE CESS POOL GOVERNMENTS.

Third; The Atlanta PD shooting was a result of TWO things (my opinion). These officers were already scared to make the wrong choice during the fight. The country is at an uproar because of "police brutality", two officers from their department are already up a creek and they don't want to be next. So they try not to be rough with this guy. Being scared and worried about their decision will cost a life. Whether it is their's or another. There is no "justifying" it, bring that down here to my county and take my taser from me. Then fire said taser at me because you don't want to go to jail. I will shoot and kill you. It never should have got to that point to begin with, but it did. The suspect escalated this situation 100% into "I dont want to go to jail".

Originally Posted by Walleye Guy View Post
Makes me wonder with all of this going on that a policeman/woman may second guess themselves when faced with a life threatening situation.This could lead to, God forbid, a LEO getting seriously hurt or worse just because they aren't able to enforce the law without scrutiny, potentially losing their job, or being arrested themselves.This whole thing will not end well for them, or the law abiding citizen.
This literally just occurred in Atlanta at the Wendy's. And what i said above applies here.

Originally Posted by onokai View Post
The real deal is these types of behaviors need to change. They have not weeded out the bad apples for lets see about 300 years. Change needs to occur.I grew up in the Watts roit days-Police where seen as heavy hitters. fast forward to 2020-some police are still heavy hitters.`Killing people for traffic violations is not someething that should be allowed. The police have not stepped up an dmade the right changes.I happen to feel we need police in this society. But letting them change has not worked.Camden started from scratch-I think its the only way to real change.We need really change.
I'm even setting race aside in this thought process as this issue is bigger than just race.I do not think the police can make enough changes to turn this around. I'm for starting over with the big city department that have shown over and over they do not get it.Shooting people in the back with no weapons on them-how does this make any sense?This stuff is happening over and over and over .
Yes we need police -a fresh start may be the best way.
disclaimer I have police friends as far up as a chief of police so I'm not a radiacal by any means-
If you can show me the factual history on your 300 years of bad police apples that would be great. Camden did not start from scratch. Contracting out to the county does not constitute starting from scratch. That's like saying Chrysler started out from scratch. No, they just tossed their problems to someone with a bigger workforce. We have done it with five cities in our county. They cannot afford to have a successful police department this day in age, so they pay us a "city contract agency agreement". We service their city, but the Deputies work for the county. You are suggesting that instead of enforcing traffic with financial citations, we walk up to the window and put a bullet in you. That is not even remotely what happens. I intend on giving you a warning or a traffic ticket. If you feel that you can run me over, crash into other civilians trying to get away or shoot me, sorry but it's gonna get messy. Should society allow you to make all the rules? Did you let your kids say, "NOT TODAY DAD! YOU CAN TAKE THAT BELT AND SHOVE IT OR I WILL KILL YOU" after they refused to follow your rules? If you allowed that in your house, I feel sorry for you. I feel confident you didn't, so why should being a responsible adult reacting to a bad decision be any different?

Originally Posted by ytmorris View Post
I see one of the largest problems facing the Police is that they have no clear objective in this day and time. Some want them to be social workers, some want guardians, and some want spec op soldiers. There is an even larger group that wants them to do all of it. They wear more hats than they should have to and anyone in any other profession would demand an absurd amount of money to perform that many jobs.

Oversight is fine. They should all have body cams and I am even fine with a review board made up of private citizens of various backgrounds, officials, and police BUT anyone involved with that review process should have a basic BLET course and mandatory continuing ed in the form of ride alongs, current tactics, and a clear understanding of law. If a member of that board doesn't meet thier obligation, they are removed. Knee jerk reactions from politicians will be the death of good proactive policing in America.

The idea of demilitarizing the police is an interesting one. Locally, the chief insisted on a traditional polyester uniform over a much more comfortable and cooler uniform consisting of BDUs, highviz uniform shirt, and an external vest/carrier because the lower income neighborhoods said it was too intimidating. Many officers already had both uniforms. My opinion was to keep the officers as comfortable as possible. I want our ERT or SWAT to have the best equipment possible to combat any potential problem. Heavy training, an armored vehicle, AR-15, m-4, etc... is a benefit to the community and the officer as we ask them to potentially put themselves in harms way in order to handle an issue quickly. I have also found that people throw "military grade" around like they know what that is. It ain't always a good thing.

We live in a world where the gold standard police chiefs have long been retired and dead. The ones that would call it correctly by standing against political pressure if their officers were right, but would condemn, terminate, or charge an officer in the wrong. The current chain of command is more worried about their pensions and not making waves with city councils, city managers, or mayors. A lot of them will throw an officer away to keep that money coming. Politicians are in control of policing in America as politics reign supreme in most departments across the nation.

Officer retention is hard for any department especially as the thought of working in more hostile conditions, with less training/equipment, with less qualified officers, less qualified superiors, and for potentially less money comes into play. There will be a huge personnel gap in the coming years that will be tough to fill. The money taken from the departments will end up leading to more unnecessary officer and civilian deaths. Decreasing one's readiness and effectiveness plays on one's confidence. Officers need to be confident and in control 100% the time in 100% of encounters for safety reasons. At the same time, civilians need to know that they are safe with any given officer. They need to be open to conversation and interaction.

Dismantling and defunding a system that is 99.5% positive doesn't make any since to me.
You sir are beyond spot on in each point you made. As a LEO, straight up thumbs up to you. Your first point I can't stress enough to people. Stop asking us to be your everything! "The police didn't even pull over when I had a flat tire/car broke down/ran out of gas". Do I look like AAA, tow service or road ranger? There are businesses out there for this. Pay them for the service you need! I support capitalism and local business. Many members of THT are business owners. No county/city/state worker should fix all your problems from your taxes. That is socialism. You guys would be mind blown with the stuff people call us to fix at their houses.

Originally Posted by Boataholic View Post
I read somewhere that they no longer want cops going to domestic disputes, they want to send social workers. Aren't domestic disputes one of the more dangerous calls a cop can go on?
You can't hire enough social workers to solve this problem. And yes, a domestic violence call for service is the most dangerous. Followed by a traffic stop.

Originally Posted by mikefloyd View Post
As I see it "we" are making it more difficult for the police to do their jobs. This will not make life better for most of us. No one including the police should die as a result of police doing their jobs but we still need police to be able to enforce the law. It can't be one or the other it has to be both. One thing that might help (I realize this is not PC) is for people to stop resisting arrest. We constantly hear that black parents have to have the "talk" with their children but a large number of the problems start with people not complying, resisting and assaulting police officers so they may be talking but is anyone listening? The second thing would be abolishing police unions and having a qualified non-political board review any complaints. Bad officers should be weeded out.
Absolutely. My job should be to enforce the law. Society is responsible for raising their children. End of story. And at no point in my childhood did I ever think, "I should commit a crime and run from the police because I don't want to go to jail." Maybe parents should, have the talk, to their kids about that. And no, no one is listening. That is why we have so many deranged individuals in society because we keep coddling them. Your last point, we don't have a union and I wouldn't be a part of one. We do, in fact, have a citizens review board annually. We get a knew Sheriff's Advisory Council every year, made up of county leaders and local business owners. Completely open book and transparent policy. When you have so many people in the community backing you because they see every cog in the machine, you're good to go. If a bad decision is made, I can promise you my agency addresses it and they are dealt with.

Originally Posted by beber View Post
Perhaps selling off the tanks and military equipment and using that budget to fund substance abuse treatments, family counselors, social workers etc.I can't help but think of the analogy, "When your only tool is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail." When our government's only tool to keep the peace and protect its citizens is "law enforcement" you are going to make criminals out of everyone, and build a lot of mistrust, anger, and unfortunately abuse.Defund the Police is a horrible term. However, restructuring a flawed organization makes a lot of sense, and if that means dismantling it and starting from scratch in order to do so, then so be it.
No agency has "tanks". We may have gear designed for the military and repurposed, but you also have technology designed for NASA that was repurposed. Made your life easier didn't it? An Armored Personnel Carrier (APC and/or MRAP) is not a mechanized war machine for us. It's sole purpose is to protect the people inside. Whether or not you understand this, a .308 rifle or 30-06 will absolutely destroy people and vehicles. Those are standard hunting rifles that I am more concerned with than AR15's. "He has an AR-15!" OH NO!!! Clearly, you have never had to be rescued while being trapped in a building where a suicidal maniac is shooting at the police and they are trying to save you because he set it on fire. As well as, the ability to drive into flooded residential areas and rescue citizens from their homes because a hurricane just put four feet of water in your house. So, please drop the rhetoric about local police stocking up on high-powered military vehicles and gear. Keeping the peace....show me where any of this bull crap over the last two weeks has been peaceful? And yes, criminals make criminals out of themselves. End of story.

Originally Posted by beber View Post
I'm going to have to disagree with some of this. If the police were policing on behalf of their citizens, there wouldn't be thousands of people in every city out protesting. Obviously the citizens don't agree with how they are being policed.

I'll be the first to admit, I'm not an expert on everything. That is why we live in a republic, where we vote in people that are supposed to know better, and people who are experts in a given field are supposed to run things. What I do know, is the current system is not working that well. The people aren't happy, the police aren't happy, we have the highest GDP, the highest incarceration rates, and crime still happens every day.

In that vain, I completely support dismantling, defunding, restructuring, or whatever you want to call it that puts together a new system that works better for all those involved.
You will never make everyone happy. Any business owner will tell you that. Sorry. We have the highest incarceration rates because we have the highest percentage of members in society that think it's okay to commit crime. We have the highest percentage of members in society who do not want to work or earn their way in life, they want to take and steal yours. I don't understand how people are so out of touch with society. Get out of the bubbles everyone is living in and look around. This is absolutely ludicrous that society is okay with constant crime by the same people over and over. Statistically, it is also generational. It's pathetic. Guilty of murder? Death penalty. All day, every day, every where. I promise you, you make repercussions for actions and crime will drop. I also know, that you cannot hire Flo and Jamie from Progressive and expect them to uphold your laws to people who refuse to obey the law. Good luck with that. Fix the problem at home with society. Stand up and say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Stop coddling people. Stop giving them money to sit at home. Stop giving them money to come up with some bull jive medical term to support their bad behavior. Stop allowing schools to create "Individual Education Plans", which for bad kids says they can scream in class or in the hallways. They are allowed to walk out and punch/kick/break things. They are allowed to verbally accost someone, because of their "condition". This is a learned behavior and a disservice. They turn 18 and that crap is not tolerated anymore. Congratulations, you now have criminals. Don't tell me I am full of crap. I LIVE THIS EVERY DAY!

Guys, I continually preach to people every day. I have one job; I either take a life to save a life. Or I sacrifice my life to save a life. That is the true job description. I encourage everyone, get into law enforcement. Please show me how we change all this because it isn't working. Society keeps wanting law enforcement to change, but society is the problem. I am mentally tired of hearing society crying "woe is me". Maybe I was raised in the south with manners, respect, courtesy, morals, ethics. Because that is about to be a lost art. We are REACTIVE!! We literally react to the problem at hand. Think about that, let it truly sink in. Law enforcement is absolutely reactive in nature. We try to be "proactive" because you think we need to be running around for 12 hours to "earn our pay", but our job is to answer calls for service in your community that has disrespectful individuals that would watch your house burn down with your family in it and film it, while you cry for them to call 911. "Sorry bruh, I'm live on instagram!"

I am sorry for the long response. It needs to be said. I will end with this; When you can end a fast food restaurant messing up my "cheeseburger with ketchup and cheese only" order, you can expect law enforcement to solve all your problems.
Old 06-15-2020, 09:35 PM
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That feels like homework.....
Old 06-15-2020, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by DoughnutToo View Post
First; If you expect every officer to go to a college/university to obtain a useless bachelors degree in criminal justice, you better start increasing the pay. Further more, I wouldn't even entertain that degree. However as with athletes, you cannot expect an officer or deputy to continue to fight and chase criminals at 20 years in. Your body is physically shot. A college degree would be better suited for the second career after you retire from LEO. Don't say they could be a supervisor, because those positions are fewer and someone has to leave in order for it to be filled. No one gives a crap if you have a degree in criminal justice. It's as useful as liberal arts.

Second; I think you need to go to your local department and ask for the fiscal budget so you can grasp the idea of where money is allocated. These are not corporations, where some run a bad business with an endless supply of money. From someone who actually has knowledge on this topic, training budgets are not what you think they are. I am sorry, but I think you should understand large financial budgets first from local government. The money to be used is either approved or not approved a year in advance by your city manager or county board members. Also, your city/county budgets don't actually reflect today's economic situation for another three years. EDIT: I CANNOT SPEAK FOR NEW YORK OR NEW JERSEY OR CALIFORNIA. THESE ARE CESS POOL GOVERNMENTS.

Third; The Atlanta PD shooting was a result of TWO things (my opinion). These officers were already scared to make the wrong choice during the fight. The country is at an uproar because of "police brutality", two officers from their department are already up a creek and they don't want to be next. So they try not to be rough with this guy. Being scared and worried about their decision will cost a life. Whether it is their's or another. There is no "justifying" it, bring that down here to my county and take my taser from me. Then fire said taser at me because you don't want to go to jail. I will shoot and kill you. It never should have got to that point to begin with, but it did. The suspect escalated this situation 100% into "I dont want to go to jail".



This literally just occurred in Atlanta at the Wendy's. And what i said above applies here.



If you can show me the factual history on your 300 years of bad police apples that would be great. Camden did not start from scratch. Contracting out to the county does not constitute starting from scratch. That's like saying Chrysler started out from scratch. No, they just tossed their problems to someone with a bigger workforce. We have done it with five cities in our county. They cannot afford to have a successful police department this day in age, so they pay us a "city contract agency agreement". We service their city, but the Deputies work for the county. You are suggesting that instead of enforcing traffic with financial citations, we walk up to the window and put a bullet in you. That is not even remotely what happens. I intend on giving you a warning or a traffic ticket. If you feel that you can run me over, crash into other civilians trying to get away or shoot me, sorry but it's gonna get messy. Should society allow you to make all the rules? Did you let your kids say, "NOT TODAY DAD! YOU CAN TAKE THAT BELT AND SHOVE IT OR I WILL KILL YOU" after they refused to follow your rules? If you allowed that in your house, I feel sorry for you. I feel confident you didn't, so why should being a responsible adult reacting to a bad decision be any different?



You sir are beyond spot on in each point you made. As a LEO, straight up thumbs up to you. Your first point I can't stress enough to people. Stop asking us to be your everything! "The police didn't even pull over when I had a flat tire/car broke down/ran out of gas". Do I look like AAA, tow service or road ranger? There are businesses out there for this. Pay them for the service you need! I support capitalism and local business. Many members of THT are business owners. No county/city/state worker should fix all your problems from your taxes. That is socialism. You guys would be mind blown with the stuff people call us to fix at their houses.



You can't hire enough social workers to solve this problem. And yes, a domestic violence call for service is the most dangerous. Followed by a traffic stop.



Absolutely. My job should be to enforce the law. Society is responsible for raising their children. End of story. And at no point in my childhood did I ever think, "I should commit a crime and run from the police because I don't want to go to jail." Maybe parents should, have the talk, to their kids about that. And no, no one is listening. That is why we have so many deranged individuals in society because we keep coddling them. Your last point, we don't have a union and I wouldn't be a part of one. We do, in fact, have a citizens review board annually. We get a knew Sheriff's Advisory Council every year, made up of county leaders and local business owners. Completely open book and transparent policy. When you have so many people in the community backing you because they see every cog in the machine, you're good to go. If a bad decision is made, I can promise you my agency addresses it and they are dealt with.



No agency has "tanks". We may have gear designed for the military and repurposed, but you also have technology designed for NASA that was repurposed. Made your life easier didn't it? An Armored Personnel Carrier (APC and/or MRAP) is not a mechanized war machine for us. It's sole purpose is to protect the people inside. Whether or not you understand this, a .308 rifle or 30-06 will absolutely destroy people and vehicles. Those are standard hunting rifles that I am more concerned with than AR15's. "He has an AR-15!" OH NO!!! Clearly, you have never had to be rescued while being trapped in a building where a suicidal maniac is shooting at the police and they are trying to save you because he set it on fire. As well as, the ability to drive into flooded residential areas and rescue citizens from their homes because a hurricane just put four feet of water in your house. So, please drop the rhetoric about local police stocking up on high-powered military vehicles and gear. Keeping the peace....show me where any of this bull crap over the last two weeks has been peaceful? And yes, criminals make criminals out of themselves. End of story.



You will never make everyone happy. Any business owner will tell you that. Sorry. We have the highest incarceration rates because we have the highest percentage of members in society that think it's okay to commit crime. We have the highest percentage of members in society who do not want to work or earn their way in life, they want to take and steal yours. I don't understand how people are so out of touch with society. Get out of the bubbles everyone is living in and look around. This is absolutely ludicrous that society is okay with constant crime by the same people over and over. Statistically, it is also generational. It's pathetic. Guilty of murder? Death penalty. All day, every day, every where. I promise you, you make repercussions for actions and crime will drop. I also know, that you cannot hire Flo and Jamie from Progressive and expect them to uphold your laws to people who refuse to obey the law. Good luck with that. Fix the problem at home with society. Stand up and say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Stop coddling people. Stop giving them money to sit at home. Stop giving them money to come up with some bull jive medical term to support their bad behavior. Stop allowing schools to create "Individual Education Plans", which for bad kids says they can scream in class or in the hallways. They are allowed to walk out and punch/kick/break things. They are allowed to verbally accost someone, because of their "condition". This is a learned behavior and a disservice. They turn 18 and that crap is not tolerated anymore. Congratulations, you now have criminals. Don't tell me I am full of crap. I LIVE THIS EVERY DAY!

Guys, I continually preach to people every day. I have one job; I either take a life to save a life. Or I sacrifice my life to save a life. That is the true job description. I encourage everyone, get into law enforcement. Please show me how we change all this because it isn't working. Society keeps wanting law enforcement to change, but society is the problem. I am mentally tired of hearing society crying "woe is me". Maybe I was raised in the south with manners, respect, courtesy, morals, ethics. Because that is about to be a lost art. We are REACTIVE!! We literally react to the problem at hand. Think about that, let it truly sink in. Law enforcement is absolutely reactive in nature. We try to be "proactive" because you think we need to be running around for 12 hours to "earn our pay", but our job is to answer calls for service in your community that has disrespectful individuals that would watch your house burn down with your family in it and film it, while you cry for them to call 911. "Sorry bruh, I'm live on instagram!"

I am sorry for the long response. It needs to be said. I will end with this; When you can end a fast food restaurant messing up my "cheeseburger with ketchup and cheese only" order, you can expect law enforcement to solve all your problems.
1,000,000% spot onÖ
Old 06-15-2020, 10:11 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by bigjohnnc View Post
Some of the ideas I've seen floating around are completely good ideas. Crisis managers, social work type things, etc... people who are better trained in those sorts of things for those situations. More oversight and making it easier to get rid of bad cops (which all good cops should want).

The term "defund the police" is pretty much the worst way they could have worded this movement.

My brother is a cop and some of my friends are as well. There's work to be done for sure.
What's next,bb guns and butterfy nets? Compete bullshit-defund the police bunch of liberal horse crap.
Old 06-15-2020, 10:48 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by DoughnutToo View Post
First; If you expect every officer to go to a college/university to obtain a useless bachelors degree in criminal justice, you better start increasing the pay. Further more, I wouldn't even entertain that degree. However as with athletes, you cannot expect an officer or deputy to continue to fight and chase criminals at 20 years in. Your body is physically shot. A college degree would be better suited for the second career after you retire from LEO. Don't say they could be a supervisor, because those positions are fewer and someone has to leave in order for it to be filled. No one gives a crap if you have a degree in criminal justice. It's as useful as liberal arts.

Second; I think you need to go to your local department and ask for the fiscal budget so you can grasp the idea of where money is allocated. These are not corporations, where some run a bad business with an endless supply of money. From someone who actually has knowledge on this topic, training budgets are not what you think they are. I am sorry, but I think you should understand large financial budgets first from local government. The money to be used is either approved or not approved a year in advance by your city manager or county board members. Also, your city/county budgets don't actually reflect today's economic situation for another three years. EDIT: I CANNOT SPEAK FOR NEW YORK OR NEW JERSEY OR CALIFORNIA. THESE ARE CESS POOL GOVERNMENTS.

Third; The Atlanta PD shooting was a result of TWO things (my opinion). These officers were already scared to make the wrong choice during the fight. The country is at an uproar because of "police brutality", two officers from their department are already up a creek and they don't want to be next. So they try not to be rough with this guy. Being scared and worried about their decision will cost a life. Whether it is their's or another. There is no "justifying" it, bring that down here to my county and take my taser from me. Then fire said taser at me because you don't want to go to jail. I will shoot and kill you. It never should have got to that point to begin with, but it did. The suspect escalated this situation 100% into "I dont want to go to jail".



This literally just occurred in Atlanta at the Wendy's. And what i said above applies here.



If you can show me the factual history on your 300 years of bad police apples that would be great. Camden did not start from scratch. Contracting out to the county does not constitute starting from scratch. That's like saying Chrysler started out from scratch. No, they just tossed their problems to someone with a bigger workforce. We have done it with five cities in our county. They cannot afford to have a successful police department this day in age, so they pay us a "city contract agency agreement". We service their city, but the Deputies work for the county. You are suggesting that instead of enforcing traffic with financial citations, we walk up to the window and put a bullet in you. That is not even remotely what happens. I intend on giving you a warning or a traffic ticket. If you feel that you can run me over, crash into other civilians trying to get away or shoot me, sorry but it's gonna get messy. Should society allow you to make all the rules? Did you let your kids say, "NOT TODAY DAD! YOU CAN TAKE THAT BELT AND SHOVE IT OR I WILL KILL YOU" after they refused to follow your rules? If you allowed that in your house, I feel sorry for you. I feel confident you didn't, so why should being a responsible adult reacting to a bad decision be any different?



You sir are beyond spot on in each point you made. As a LEO, straight up thumbs up to you. Your first point I can't stress enough to people. Stop asking us to be your everything! "The police didn't even pull over when I had a flat tire/car broke down/ran out of gas". Do I look like AAA, tow service or road ranger? There are businesses out there for this. Pay them for the service you need! I support capitalism and local business. Many members of THT are business owners. No county/city/state worker should fix all your problems from your taxes. That is socialism. You guys would be mind blown with the stuff people call us to fix at their houses.



You can't hire enough social workers to solve this problem. And yes, a domestic violence call for service is the most dangerous. Followed by a traffic stop.



Absolutely. My job should be to enforce the law. Society is responsible for raising their children. End of story. And at no point in my childhood did I ever think, "I should commit a crime and run from the police because I don't want to go to jail." Maybe parents should, have the talk, to their kids about that. And no, no one is listening. That is why we have so many deranged individuals in society because we keep coddling them. Your last point, we don't have a union and I wouldn't be a part of one. We do, in fact, have a citizens review board annually. We get a knew Sheriff's Advisory Council every year, made up of county leaders and local business owners. Completely open book and transparent policy. When you have so many people in the community backing you because they see every cog in the machine, you're good to go. If a bad decision is made, I can promise you my agency addresses it and they are dealt with.



No agency has "tanks". We may have gear designed for the military and repurposed, but you also have technology designed for NASA that was repurposed. Made your life easier didn't it? An Armored Personnel Carrier (APC and/or MRAP) is not a mechanized war machine for us. It's sole purpose is to protect the people inside. Whether or not you understand this, a .308 rifle or 30-06 will absolutely destroy people and vehicles. Those are standard hunting rifles that I am more concerned with than AR15's. "He has an AR-15!" OH NO!!! Clearly, you have never had to be rescued while being trapped in a building where a suicidal maniac is shooting at the police and they are trying to save you because he set it on fire. As well as, the ability to drive into flooded residential areas and rescue citizens from their homes because a hurricane just put four feet of water in your house. So, please drop the rhetoric about local police stocking up on high-powered military vehicles and gear. Keeping the peace....show me where any of this bull crap over the last two weeks has been peaceful? And yes, criminals make criminals out of themselves. End of story.



You will never make everyone happy. Any business owner will tell you that. Sorry. We have the highest incarceration rates because we have the highest percentage of members in society that think it's okay to commit crime. We have the highest percentage of members in society who do not want to work or earn their way in life, they want to take and steal yours. I don't understand how people are so out of touch with society. Get out of the bubbles everyone is living in and look around. This is absolutely ludicrous that society is okay with constant crime by the same people over and over. Statistically, it is also generational. It's pathetic. Guilty of murder? Death penalty. All day, every day, every where. I promise you, you make repercussions for actions and crime will drop. I also know, that you cannot hire Flo and Jamie from Progressive and expect them to uphold your laws to people who refuse to obey the law. Good luck with that. Fix the problem at home with society. Stand up and say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Stop coddling people. Stop giving them money to sit at home. Stop giving them money to come up with some bull jive medical term to support their bad behavior. Stop allowing schools to create "Individual Education Plans", which for bad kids says they can scream in class or in the hallways. They are allowed to walk out and punch/kick/break things. They are allowed to verbally accost someone, because of their "condition". This is a learned behavior and a disservice. They turn 18 and that crap is not tolerated anymore. Congratulations, you now have criminals. Don't tell me I am full of crap. I LIVE THIS EVERY DAY!

Guys, I continually preach to people every day. I have one job; I either take a life to save a life. Or I sacrifice my life to save a life. That is the true job description. I encourage everyone, get into law enforcement. Please show me how we change all this because it isn't working. Society keeps wanting law enforcement to change, but society is the problem. I am mentally tired of hearing society crying "woe is me". Maybe I was raised in the south with manners, respect, courtesy, morals, ethics. Because that is about to be a lost art. We are REACTIVE!! We literally react to the problem at hand. Think about that, let it truly sink in. Law enforcement is absolutely reactive in nature. We try to be "proactive" because you think we need to be running around for 12 hours to "earn our pay", but our job is to answer calls for service in your community that has disrespectful individuals that would watch your house burn down with your family in it and film it, while you cry for them to call 911. "Sorry bruh, I'm live on instagram!"

I am sorry for the long response. It needs to be said. I will end with this; When you can end a fast food restaurant messing up my "cheeseburger with ketchup and cheese only" order, you can expect law enforcement to solve all your problems.

Rack em
Old 06-16-2020, 04:32 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by DoughnutToo View Post
First; If you expect every officer to go to a college/university to obtain a useless bachelors degree in criminal justice, you better start increasing the pay. Further more, I wouldn't even entertain that degree. However as with athletes, you cannot expect an officer or deputy to continue to fight and chase criminals at 20 years in. Your body is physically shot. A college degree would be better suited for the second career after you retire from LEO. Don't say they could be a supervisor, because those positions are fewer and someone has to leave in order for it to be filled. No one gives a crap if you have a degree in criminal justice. It's as useful as liberal arts.

Second; I think you need to go to your local department and ask for the fiscal budget so you can grasp the idea of where money is allocated. These are not corporations, where some run a bad business with an endless supply of money. From someone who actually has knowledge on this topic, training budgets are not what you think they are. I am sorry, but I think you should understand large financial budgets first from local government. The money to be used is either approved or not approved a year in advance by your city manager or county board members. Also, your city/county budgets don't actually reflect today's economic situation for another three years. EDIT: I CANNOT SPEAK FOR NEW YORK OR NEW JERSEY OR CALIFORNIA. THESE ARE CESS POOL GOVERNMENTS.

Third; The Atlanta PD shooting was a result of TWO things (my opinion). These officers were already scared to make the wrong choice during the fight. The country is at an uproar because of "police brutality", two officers from their department are already up a creek and they don't want to be next. So they try not to be rough with this guy. Being scared and worried about their decision will cost a life. Whether it is their's or another. There is no "justifying" it, bring that down here to my county and take my taser from me. Then fire said taser at me because you don't want to go to jail. I will shoot and kill you. It never should have got to that point to begin with, but it did. The suspect escalated this situation 100% into "I dont want to go to jail".



This literally just occurred in Atlanta at the Wendy's. And what i said above applies here.



If you can show me the factual history on your 300 years of bad police apples that would be great. Camden did not start from scratch. Contracting out to the county does not constitute starting from scratch. That's like saying Chrysler started out from scratch. No, they just tossed their problems to someone with a bigger workforce. We have done it with five cities in our county. They cannot afford to have a successful police department this day in age, so they pay us a "city contract agency agreement". We service their city, but the Deputies work for the county. You are suggesting that instead of enforcing traffic with financial citations, we walk up to the window and put a bullet in you. That is not even remotely what happens. I intend on giving you a warning or a traffic ticket. If you feel that you can run me over, crash into other civilians trying to get away or shoot me, sorry but it's gonna get messy. Should society allow you to make all the rules? Did you let your kids say, "NOT TODAY DAD! YOU CAN TAKE THAT BELT AND SHOVE IT OR I WILL KILL YOU" after they refused to follow your rules? If you allowed that in your house, I feel sorry for you. I feel confident you didn't, so why should being a responsible adult reacting to a bad decision be any different?



You sir are beyond spot on in each point you made. As a LEO, straight up thumbs up to you. Your first point I can't stress enough to people. Stop asking us to be your everything! "The police didn't even pull over when I had a flat tire/car broke down/ran out of gas". Do I look like AAA, tow service or road ranger? There are businesses out there for this. Pay them for the service you need! I support capitalism and local business. Many members of THT are business owners. No county/city/state worker should fix all your problems from your taxes. That is socialism. You guys would be mind blown with the stuff people call us to fix at their houses.



You can't hire enough social workers to solve this problem. And yes, a domestic violence call for service is the most dangerous. Followed by a traffic stop.



Absolutely. My job should be to enforce the law. Society is responsible for raising their children. End of story. And at no point in my childhood did I ever think, "I should commit a crime and run from the police because I don't want to go to jail." Maybe parents should, have the talk, to their kids about that. And no, no one is listening. That is why we have so many deranged individuals in society because we keep coddling them. Your last point, we don't have a union and I wouldn't be a part of one. We do, in fact, have a citizens review board annually. We get a knew Sheriff's Advisory Council every year, made up of county leaders and local business owners. Completely open book and transparent policy. When you have so many people in the community backing you because they see every cog in the machine, you're good to go. If a bad decision is made, I can promise you my agency addresses it and they are dealt with.



No agency has "tanks". We may have gear designed for the military and repurposed, but you also have technology designed for NASA that was repurposed. Made your life easier didn't it? An Armored Personnel Carrier (APC and/or MRAP) is not a mechanized war machine for us. It's sole purpose is to protect the people inside. Whether or not you understand this, a .308 rifle or 30-06 will absolutely destroy people and vehicles. Those are standard hunting rifles that I am more concerned with than AR15's. "He has an AR-15!" OH NO!!! Clearly, you have never had to be rescued while being trapped in a building where a suicidal maniac is shooting at the police and they are trying to save you because he set it on fire. As well as, the ability to drive into flooded residential areas and rescue citizens from their homes because a hurricane just put four feet of water in your house. So, please drop the rhetoric about local police stocking up on high-powered military vehicles and gear. Keeping the peace....show me where any of this bull crap over the last two weeks has been peaceful? And yes, criminals make criminals out of themselves. End of story.



You will never make everyone happy. Any business owner will tell you that. Sorry. We have the highest incarceration rates because we have the highest percentage of members in society that think it's okay to commit crime. We have the highest percentage of members in society who do not want to work or earn their way in life, they want to take and steal yours. I don't understand how people are so out of touch with society. Get out of the bubbles everyone is living in and look around. This is absolutely ludicrous that society is okay with constant crime by the same people over and over. Statistically, it is also generational. It's pathetic. Guilty of murder? Death penalty. All day, every day, every where. I promise you, you make repercussions for actions and crime will drop. I also know, that you cannot hire Flo and Jamie from Progressive and expect them to uphold your laws to people who refuse to obey the law. Good luck with that. Fix the problem at home with society. Stand up and say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Stop coddling people. Stop giving them money to sit at home. Stop giving them money to come up with some bull jive medical term to support their bad behavior. Stop allowing schools to create "Individual Education Plans", which for bad kids says they can scream in class or in the hallways. They are allowed to walk out and punch/kick/break things. They are allowed to verbally accost someone, because of their "condition". This is a learned behavior and a disservice. They turn 18 and that crap is not tolerated anymore. Congratulations, you now have criminals. Don't tell me I am full of crap. I LIVE THIS EVERY DAY!

Guys, I continually preach to people every day. I have one job; I either take a life to save a life. Or I sacrifice my life to save a life. That is the true job description. I encourage everyone, get into law enforcement. Please show me how we change all this because it isn't working. Society keeps wanting law enforcement to change, but society is the problem. I am mentally tired of hearing society crying "woe is me". Maybe I was raised in the south with manners, respect, courtesy, morals, ethics. Because that is about to be a lost art. We are REACTIVE!! We literally react to the problem at hand. Think about that, let it truly sink in. Law enforcement is absolutely reactive in nature. We try to be "proactive" because you think we need to be running around for 12 hours to "earn our pay", but our job is to answer calls for service in your community that has disrespectful individuals that would watch your house burn down with your family in it and film it, while you cry for them to call 911. "Sorry bruh, I'm live on instagram!"

I am sorry for the long response. It needs to be said. I will end with this; When you can end a fast food restaurant messing up my "cheeseburger with ketchup and cheese only" order, you can expect law enforcement to solve all your problems.
Your message needs to be listened to by everyone. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how 1 can make that happen.

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