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Defund the Police - Serious Question

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Defund the Police - Serious Question

Old 06-15-2020, 09:41 AM
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The real deal is these types of behaviors need to change. They have not weeded out the bad apples for lets see about 300 years. Change needs to occur.I grew up in the Watts roit days-Police where seen as heavy hitters. fast forward to 2020-some police are still heavy hitters.`Killing people for traffic violations is not someething that should be allowed. The police have not stepped up an dmade the right changes.I happen to feel we need police in this society. But letting them change has not worked.Camden started from scratch-I think its the only way to real change.We need really change.
I'm even setting race aside in this thought process as this issue is bigger than just race.I do not think the police can make enough changes to turn this around. I'm for starting over with the big city department that have shown over and over they do not get it.Shooting people in the back with no weapons on them-how does this make any sense?This stuff is happening over and over and over .
Yes we need police -a fresh start may be the best way.
disclaimer I have police friends as far up as a chief of police so I'm not a radiacal by any means-
Old 06-15-2020, 09:44 AM
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https://www.blackwaterusa.com/


I think they could handle the job. I wonder what would happen then?
Old 06-15-2020, 09:45 AM
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I see one of the largest problems facing the Police is that they have no clear objective in this day and time. Some want them to be social workers, some want guardians, and some want spec op soldiers. There is an even larger group that wants them to do all of it. They wear more hats than they should have to and anyone in any other profession would demand an absurd amount of money to perform that many jobs.

Oversight is fine. They should all have body cams and I am even fine with a review board made up of private citizens of various backgrounds, officials, and police BUT anyone involved with that review process should have a basic BLET course and mandatory continuing ed in the form of ride alongs, current tactics, and a clear understanding of law. If a member of that board doesn't meet thier obligation, they are removed. Knee jerk reactions from politicians will be the death of good proactive policing in America.

The idea of demilitarizing the police is an interesting one. Locally, the chief insisted on a traditional polyester uniform over a much more comfortable and cooler uniform consisting of BDUs, highviz uniform shirt, and an external vest/carrier because the lower income neighborhoods said it was too intimidating. Many officers already had both uniforms. My opinion was to keep the officers as comfortable as possible. I want our ERT or SWAT to have the best equipment possible to combat any potential problem. Heavy training, an armored vehicle, AR-15, m-4, etc... is a benefit to the community and the officer as we ask them to potentially put themselves in harms way in order to handle an issue quickly. I have also found that people throw "military grade" around like they know what that is. It ain't always a good thing.

We live in a world where the gold standard police chiefs have long been retired and dead. The ones that would call it correctly by standing against political pressure if their officers were right, but would condemn, terminate, or charge an officer in the wrong. The current chain of command is more worried about their pensions and not making waves with city councils, city managers, or mayors. A lot of them will throw an officer away to keep that money coming. Politicians are in control of policing in America as politics reign supreme in most departments across the nation.

Officer retention is hard for any department especially as the thought of working in more hostile conditions, with less training/equipment, with less qualified officers, less qualified superiors, and for potentially less money comes into play. There will be a huge personnel gap in the coming years that will be tough to fill. The money taken from the departments will end up leading to more unnecessary officer and civilian deaths. Decreasing one's readiness and effectiveness plays on one's confidence. Officers need to be confident and in control 100% the time in 100% of encounters for safety reasons. At the same time, civilians need to know that they are safe with any given officer. They need to be open to conversation and interaction.

Dismantling and defunding a system that is 99.5% positive doesn't make any since to me.
Old 06-15-2020, 09:46 AM
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I read somewhere that they no longer want cops going to domestic disputes, they want to send social workers. Aren't domestic disputes one of the more dangerous calls a cop can go on?
Old 06-15-2020, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by captbone View Post
Cops will simply stay in their car and take the report after the crime is done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren...ct_of_Columbia

Yeah, uh, so that's basically what this case said years ago. So remember kids, the next time someone breaks into your house, don't wait for the police, because they don't have to protect you. The SCOTUS says so.

Last edited by likwid; 06-15-2020 at 09:59 AM.
Old 06-15-2020, 10:08 AM
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As I see it "we" are making it more difficult for the police to do their jobs. This will not make life better for most of us. No one including the police should die as a result of police doing their jobs but we still need police to be able to enforce the law. It can't be one or the other it has to be both.

One thing that might help (I realize this is not PC) is for people to stop resisting arrest. We constantly hear that black parents have to have the "talk" with their children but a large number of the problems start with people not complying, resisting and assaulting police officers so they may be talking but is anyone listening?

The second thing would be abolishing police unions and having a qualified non-political board review any complaints. Bad officers should be weeded out.
Old 06-15-2020, 10:11 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by AquaWhaler View Post
In 1970 Tom Wolfe released "Radical Chic and Mau Mauing the Flak Catchers", a 2 essay volume of his observations on white guilt and minority governance.
50 years later it's still caustic,cynical and brilliant; and no,nothing changed in half a century. Highly recommended (re-)reading for our current times.
Thanks, just ordered.
Old 06-15-2020, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Walleye Guy View Post
Makes me wonder with all of this going on that a policeman/woman may second guess themselves when faced with a life threatening situation.

This could lead to, God forbid, a LEO getting seriously hurt or worse just because they aren't able to enforce the law without scrutiny, potentially losing their job, or being arrested themselves.

This whole thing will not end well for them, or the law abiding citizen.
Yep, 31 years at this point..

I am done..

I did not want to leave my career into retirement on a low note, but I feel I have no choice now..

I have 1.5 years left until early retirement. I wanted to go longer, but I can't stomach it anymore.

If I'm forced to shoot someone in 2020, I'm likely to be charged with murder, and/or suspended without pay, lambasted by the media, doxed by the mob and receive no support from the chain of command as they all politically-prostrate themselves at the foot of the mob in self preservation..

I plan to do the least amount possible and avoid any situations that put me in a position where I have to use violence to defend the public..

That's what the-snip- want and I'm in self-preservation mode at this point.

I'm sorry it's come to this, but many officers are of the same mind and our communities are going to be a lot less safe in the near future..

Last edited by THT Mod 18; 06-16-2020 at 07:53 PM. Reason: Pol ref
Old 06-15-2020, 10:27 AM
  #29  
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"One thing that might help (I realize this is not PC) is for people to stop resisting arrest" Now there is a reasonable suggestion, This is exactly where most of the recent high profile deadly police/citizen began."
Old 06-15-2020, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by beber View Post
A police force without the existing union protections, that prevent disciplinary actions, firings, oversight etc.

Perhaps selling off the tanks and military equipment and using that budget to fund substance abuse treatments, family counselors, social workers etc.

I can't help but think of the analogy, "When your only tool is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail." When our government's only tool to keep the peace and protect its citizens is "law enforcement" you are going to make criminals out of everyone, and build a lot of mistrust, anger, and unfortunately abuse.

Defund the Police is a horrible term. However, restructuring a flawed organization makes a lot of sense, and if that means dismantling it and starting from scratch in order to do so, then so be it.
As stated in the op, reforms are needed but those pushing the current narrative chose Defund the Police terminology.
Old 06-15-2020, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by nicecast View Post
You made the mistake of answering the OP factually and objectively, and without bias.
The question was honest and open ended.

While I believe complete defunding/disbanding of the police is without merit, there needs to be some change and it is coming whehter we like it or not. Hopefully for the better but with politics in volved I am not holding my breath. Regardless, curious what others thought a viable option was.
Old 06-15-2020, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by beber View Post
...
Perhaps selling off the tanks and military equipment and using that budget to fund substance abuse treatments, family counselors, social workers etc.
...
Who do you propose they sell that stuff to?? They got most of that stuff for free, or at a very low cost, from the Pentagon program where they decommission excess or older equipment, so the Pentagon won't want to buy it back, and if they did it would not amount to any kind of $$.

Sell it on Ebay?? Why not just turn it over to some of the neighborhood watch program folks in those "bad" sections of town?
Old 06-15-2020, 11:06 AM
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Old 06-15-2020, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by RusticHills View Post
Yep, 31 years at this point..

I am done..

I did not want to leave my career into retirement on a low note, but I feel I have no choice now..

I have 1.5 years left until early retirement. I wanted to go longer, but I can't stomach it anymore.

If I'm forced to shoot someone in 2020, I'm likely to be charged with murder, and/or suspended without pay, lambasted by the media, doxed by the mob and receive no support from the chain of command as they all politically-prostrate themselves at the foot of the mob in self preservation..

I plan to do the least amount possible and avoid any situations that put me in a position where I have to use violence to defend the public..

That's what the dems and libs want and I'm in self-preservation mode at this point.

I'm sorry it's come to this, but many officers are of the same mind and our communities are going to be a lot less safe in the near future..
I have a feeling a LOT of other folks in the profession are thinking the same way, and our society will be worse off for it. It will take over a decade to recover from this. The first half as we spiral down the abyss and see increasing violent crimes and more folks relying on self-preservation methods. Eventually, we"ll get some serious leadership that says "enough is enough" and starts rebuilding society into one based on laws and appropriate enforcement to maintain order. Not sure how many will perish in that decade, but it won't be insignificant numbers.
Old 06-15-2020, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by km1125 View Post
Who do you propose they sell that stuff to?? They got most of that stuff for free, or at a very low cost, from the Pentagon program where they decommission excess or older equipment, so the Pentagon won't want to buy it back, and if they did it would not amount to any kind of $$.

Sell it on Ebay?? Why not just turn it over to some of the neighborhood watch program folks in those "bad" sections of town?
I firmly believe that any equipment, technology, and weaponry made available to police departments should also be available to the general public.
Old 06-15-2020, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Jersus View Post
I firmly believe that any equipment, technology, and weaponry made available to police departments should also be available to the general public.

Most of it is but is just really expensive to buy while the rest of it needs a special permit or stamp. Civilians don't need everything though. A scenario where a LEO is outnumbered is far more likely than the other way around and an edge keeps them alive.
Old 06-15-2020, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by KJS View Post
Here is what Camden did..

Camden disbanded its police department; here’s how the city rebuilt it
http://www.mcall.com/news/pennsylvan...woi-story.html
The biggest change in Camden was getting rid of the union. The average cost per officer (wages and benefits) went from over $180k to less than $100k per year. They were also new hires, on probation so they could easily be let go. I understand the union is creeping back in and the honeymoon may be over.
Old 06-15-2020, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by km1125 View Post
Who do you propose they sell that stuff to?? They got most of that stuff for free, or at a very low cost, from the Pentagon program where they decommission excess or older equipment, so the Pentagon won't want to buy it back, and if they did it would not amount to any kind of $$.

Sell it on Ebay?? Why not just turn it over to some of the neighborhood watch program folks in those "bad" sections of town?
You are right, no one is going to purchase the hardware. However, all that equipment takes manpower to operate, manpower to maintain, spare parts, storage costs, training, etc. All of that could be saved and put to better use.
Old 06-15-2020, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by RusticHills View Post
Yep, 31 years at this point..

I am done..

I did not want to leave my career into retirement on a low note, but I feel I have no choice now..

I have 1.5 years left until early retirement. I wanted to go longer, but I can't stomach it anymore.

If I'm forced to shoot someone in 2020, I'm likely to be charged with murder, and/or suspended without pay, lambasted by the media, doxed by the mob and receive no support from the chain of command as they all politically-prostrate themselves at the foot of the mob in self preservation..

I plan to do the least amount possible and avoid any situations that put me in a position where I have to use violence to defend the public..

That's what the dems and libs want and I'm in self-preservation mode at this point.

I'm sorry it's come to this, but many officers are of the same mind and our communities are going to be a lot less safe in the near future..
I don't blame you at all. Be safe for the next 18 months.
Old 06-15-2020, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ytmorris View Post
Most of it is but is just really expensive to buy while the rest of it needs a special permit or stamp. Civilians don't need everything though. A scenario where a LEO is outnumbered is far more likely than the other way around and an edge keeps them alive.
I'd just like to point out that Police are civilians too, somewhere that line has been blurred.

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