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NYC ER Doc commits suicide

Old 05-01-2020, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDanH View Post
I have an issue with anyone who discourages people who need help from seeking help, due to their personal biases. Ironically, billinstuart, the poster you mentioned above, does this habitually on many Dockside threads related to mental health, with seemingly little regard for the potential for harm. I am sure he feels justified in this based upon his personal experiences.
humph ... so that's what it looks like when a doctor calls you an a**hole .
Old 05-01-2020, 01:23 PM
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Lots of military veterans commit suicide due to PTSD and other challenges. We donít denigrate those men and women as selfish, but recognize that they need help and show empathy. Why should this situation be any different.

Whether someone is a hero or not should be separated from how oneís life ended. You can be a hero or a coward and still commit suicide. You can be a hero or coward and live a very long life.

I believe the value this article brings is that this COVID event is causing a lot of mental health issues. Not just with front line doctors but everyone. Some will lose their businesses, life savings and become despondent and take their own lives. Itís something we should be aware of.

For the anti stay-at-home crowd, you should be embracing this reporting. This shutdown is creating a mental health crisis and one more reason to open things back up and get back to normalcy.
Old 05-01-2020, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by hotwire_marine View Post
Not going to make any friends like this, but suicide is the ultimate coward move. Sad a doctor couldn't get the help to deal.
Eh, depends on the cirumstance. Some people might not have anyone. I could probably off myself and nobody would know for weeks. Not planning to do that but I realize why some people do. I would argue its selfish to keep someone alive for yourself while they are clinicly depressed
Old 05-01-2020, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ed d View Post
humph ... so that's what it looks like when a doctor calls you an a**hole .
LOL..consider the source. As usual, assumptions. BTW, what kind of "doctor"?
Old 05-01-2020, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDanH View Post
I would be interested in seeing statistics from a real, peer-reviewed study. Post a link if you know of one.

I recommend that people who have stressful jobs - including doctors (such as yourself), dentists, EMS, mental health providers, and others- seek professional support if needed. I was truthfully surprised by the ďselfishĒ comment you made, which, as I have said, seems harsh and judgmental.

I have an issue with anyone who discourages people who need help from seeking help, due to their personal biases. Ironically, billinstuart, the poster you mentioned above, does this habitually on many Dockside threads related to mental health, with seemingly little regard for the potential for harm. I am sure he feels justified in this based upon his personal experiences.
DrDanH:
I have nothing in regards to a peer reviewed study showing "causes" or "inciting issues" regarding suicide for physicians, nurses, DMD's, pharmacists or EMT's etc. The "survey" by EMT "educaters" was a poor representation of a peer reviewed and meaningful compilation of issues regarding work related stresses. That's why my reference to BillinStuart is on to something. I will let him speak for himself regarding the selfishness of suicide. Like you, I'd like to see meaningful progress in dealing with professional's suicides and self destructive behavior.

I still don't feel people who identify that suicide is selfishness are incorrect. One of your inciting conditions for suicide is drug use. We all agree that this contributes mightily to medical professionals suicides. My own specialty is probably the worst. People that use and abuse drugs might be "sick" but they sure as hell are selfish, and will abuse any of their colleages, friends or family while under the spell of drugs. It is impossible for me to see (from my lengthy experiences with druggies) the difference between their selfishness when using drugs, and the next step which might be suicide. Or financial ruin, or marital ruin, or professional ruin, or patient damage. I just don't have the capability to parse and separate these issues with terminology.

The poor physician that took her life got intervention and received psychiatric and mental health care. From her family, and from her physicians. Those interventions failed and she committed suicide.
Simplifying her situation, which was obviously complex, to being a result of her "heroic work" on the "frontlines of medicine" is something her grieving father, and the mercilless media have taken advantage of. She likely did not commit suicide because BillinStuart called her selfish, or a coward, or anything else. Nor did this prevent her from appropriate care. Her illness prevented her from seeing her selfishness, and sadly got the best of her. Treatment failures are part of the game. In health and mental care, we play in the big leagues. Nobody pitches underhand in this league.

I will sign off this thread and show myself out with my quote, cut and pasted from earlier:
I'm not arguing against proper psychiatric and psychological care for those ill enough to consider suicide. People so afflicted need and require it. This can be life saving.
Old 05-01-2020, 07:44 PM
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People kill themselves not because they want to, but because they feel it escapes a worse suffering. Those unfortunate souls that leapt from the burning twin towers many years ago, were those acts of selfishness or desperation? How about farmers that are killing themselves after being crushed by debt and losing their farms? Iíve read that farmer suicide rates are 5 times higher than the average - are farmers just a selfish group of people?

Mental illness and depression are diseases, not selfish choices. These people and their families need help and our sympathy.
Old 05-01-2020, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by billinstuart View Post
LOL..
Old 05-01-2020, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by dssmith View Post
DrDanH:
I have nothing in regards to a peer reviewed study showing "causes" or "inciting issues" regarding suicide for physicians, nurses, DMD's, pharmacists or EMT's etc. The "survey" by EMT "educaters" was a poor representation of a peer reviewed and meaningful compilation of issues regarding work related stresses. That's why my reference to BillinStuart is on to something. I will let him speak for himself regarding the selfishness of suicide. Like you, I'd like to see meaningful progress in dealing with professional's suicides and self destructive behavior.

I still don't feel people who identify that suicide is selfishness are incorrect. One of your inciting conditions for suicide is drug use. We all agree that this contributes mightily to medical professionals suicides. My own specialty is probably the worst. People that use and abuse drugs might be "sick" but they sure as hell are selfish, and will abuse any of their colleages, friends or family while under the spell of drugs. It is impossible for me to see (from my lengthy experiences with druggies) the difference between their selfishness when using drugs, and the next step which might be suicide. Or financial ruin, or marital ruin, or professional ruin, or patient damage. I just don't have the capability to parse and separate these issues with terminology.

The poor physician that took her life got intervention and received psychiatric and mental health care. From her family, and from her physicians. Those interventions failed and she committed suicide.
Simplifying her situation, which was obviously complex, to being a result of her "heroic work" on the "frontlines of medicine" is something her grieving father, and the mercilless media have taken advantage of. She likely did not commit suicide because BillinStuart called her selfish, or a coward, or anything else. Nor did this prevent her from appropriate care. Her illness prevented her from seeing her selfishness, and sadly got the best of her. Treatment failures are part of the game. In health and mental care, we play in the big leagues. Nobody pitches underhand in this league.

I will sign off this thread and show myself out with my quote, cut and pasted from earlier:
I'm not arguing against proper psychiatric and psychological care for those ill enough to consider suicide. People so afflicted need and require it. This can be life saving.
I looked back at some of the prior "suicide threads" in Dockside Chat, and noticed it is often many of the same people expressing many of the same entrenched ideas.

Interesting that you connected the "selfishness" of suicide with the "selfishness" of substance abuse, presumably because of your personal experience, also noting the high correlation between substance use and suicide. [Use of alcohol and drugs is found to be present in over 50% of suicides.] I think we are defining "selfish" differently. Does "selfish" mean only that the person takes their own life without being able to consider the impact of the act on others, or does "selfish" mean that the person is capable of considering the impact on others and willfully chooses this course of action despite having a full appreciation of the harm it will cause? Some (including some on this board) seem to use a definition that includes the latter stipulations. My unwillingness to call suicide "selfish" arises out of 30 years of career experience with suicidally-depressed patients some of whom, by their own admission later (after treatment following a suicide attempt), acknowledge that they were unable to see anything beyond their own pain and anguish.

I am not blaming anyone- including BillinStuart - for anyone's suicide. I simply do not find it to be helpful to label suicidal people "selfish" or in any way discourage them from disclosing their suicidal thoughts or seeking treatment by stigmatizing them. Maybe someone here can enlighten me? What do we gain by labeling them as "selfish"?



Old 05-01-2020, 08:32 PM
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Crikey ... there he goes again
Old 05-02-2020, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ed d View Post
Crikey ... there he goes again
Iím done. I think I may just avoid these kind of threads in the future.
Old 05-02-2020, 03:36 AM
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According to Wikipedia 300-400 doctors commit suicide a year. Besides for creating a cult of personality around this flu why is this one of noterietay? If we look at the data in five years will 2019-2020 have a spike? probably not.
Old 05-02-2020, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by DrDanH View Post
Iím done. I think I may just avoid these kind of threads in the future.
That would be a shame, then the idiots win.
Old 05-02-2020, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by DrDanH View Post
I’m done. I think I may just avoid these kind of threads in the future.
This ^^^^

Just drives up Internet Brands ad revenue for impressions when you view each thread. A billion dollar company, IB is owned by KKR.

Cut views, ad revenue drops.

Last edited by rickboat; 05-02-2020 at 04:22 PM.
Old 05-02-2020, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by billinstuart View Post
LOL..consider the source. As usual, assumptions. BTW, what kind of "doctor"?
Over the years Iíve found people who must continuously throw around the Dr title are usually English teachers followed a close second by chiropractors and dentist.
Old 05-02-2020, 05:27 AM
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1: DrDan is correct about not being :selfish:..often suicide is not a selfish act but just the opposite..an attempt to improve conditions by removing yourself from the picture.

2: The mental health system is broken. Often is is far from the compassionate atmosphere being presented. Depending on your financial situation, individuals are lied to, physically mistreated, misdiagnosed, abused, humiliated, and deprived of their rights, all in the name of "help". For every worker who is sincere, there probably 5 who want to spit on you. Ask anyone who has been Baker Acted in a public facility. THIS is the issue. Which is worse..the disease or the cure? I've seen family units destroyed in the name of this kind of help. One child turned to drugs and died, one parent was permanently institutionalized permanently,from being unable to cope with the situation.

I'll bet if the professionals in the industry were anonymously put thru the process, they would have a MUCH different perspective.
Old 05-02-2020, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by DrDanH View Post
Iím done. I think I may just avoid these kind of threads in the future.
That would be a shame
Originally Posted by bjm9818 View Post
Over the years Iíve found people who must continuously throw around the Dr title are usually English teachers followed a close second by chiropractors and dentist.
And rappers! Doctor Dre canít be a real doctor!!
Originally Posted by dssmith View Post
DrDanH:
I have nothing in regards to a peer reviewed study showing "causes" or "inciting issues" regarding suicide for physicians, nurses, DMD's, pharmacists or EMT's etc. The "survey" by EMT "educaters" was a poor representation of a peer reviewed and meaningful compilation of issues regarding work related stresses. That's why my reference to BillinStuart is on to something. I will let him speak for himself regarding the selfishness of suicide. Like you, I'd like to see meaningful progress in dealing with professional's suicides and self destructive behavior.

I still don't feel people who identify that suicide is selfishness are incorrect. One of your inciting conditions for suicide is drug use. We all agree that this contributes mightily to medical professionals suicides. My own specialty is probably the worst. People that use and abuse drugs might be "sick" but they sure as hell are selfish, and will abuse any of their colleages, friends or family while under the spell of drugs. It is impossible for me to see (from my lengthy experiences with druggies) the difference between their selfishness when using drugs, and the next step which might be suicide. Or financial ruin, or marital ruin, or professional ruin, or patient damage. I just don't have the capability to parse and separate these issues with terminology.

The poor physician that took her life got intervention and received psychiatric and mental health care. From her family, and from her physicians. Those interventions failed and she committed suicide.
Simplifying her situation, which was obviously complex, to being a result of her "heroic work" on the "frontlines of medicine" is something her grieving father, and the mercilless media have taken advantage of. She likely did not commit suicide because BillinStuart called her selfish, or a coward, or anything else. Nor did this prevent her from appropriate care. Her illness prevented her from seeing her selfishness, and sadly got the best of her. Treatment failures are part of the game. In health and mental care, we play in the big leagues. Nobody pitches underhand in this league.

I will sign off this thread and show myself out with my quote, cut and pasted from earlier:
I'm not arguing against proper psychiatric and psychological care for those ill enough to consider suicide. People so afflicted need and require it. This can be life saving.
Donít you think suicide would down if everyone smoked weed?
Old 05-02-2020, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by rusbob View Post
That would be a shame - yep

And rappers! Doctor Dre canít be a real doctor!! - good point
.
Old 05-02-2020, 02:48 PM
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Is it possible that she was on some medication that - perhaps made her think or have suicidal tendancies? Hear that one all the time on the drug commercials that have overloaded TV.
Old 05-02-2020, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by dssmith View Post
Male dentists hold the highest suicide rate at 8.02 percent. Female dentists hold the fourth highest suicide rate at 5.28 percent. Physicians (7.87 percent), pharmacists (7.19 percent) and nurses (6.56 percent) also hold suicide rates much higher than the national average.
I've never see suicide rate expressed as simply "percent". What does a "suicide rate at 8.02 percent" actually mean? Certainly, you're not saying that 8.02% of dentists kill themselves, are you?
Old 05-02-2020, 04:03 PM
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^ not sure either
https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/...y-profession#1

md rates are highest of any profession, higher than military rate and a bit more than double the general population as per the analysis


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