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NYC ER Doc commits suicide

Old 04-30-2020, 09:15 PM
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Thank you DrDanH for that. I can't even try to guess what the front line people are going through but to have to see all the suffering, death, and constant lack of sleep...I feel for her and all the front line people.
God bless her and her family.
Old 04-30-2020, 11:37 PM
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Should have quit and worked at a grocery store.
Old 05-01-2020, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by dssmith View Post
I'm sorry about any suicide. There's nothing heroic about committing suicide. (My condolences to her father who insists she is a Hero)
I think those that keep doing their jobs in the face of heavy work loads and trying circumstances are to be lauded. On any job.

Here's a little ditty about suicide in healthcare settings:
Male dentists hold the highest suicide rate at 8.02 percent. Female dentists hold the fourth highest suicide rate at 5.28 percent. Physicians (7.87 percent), pharmacists (7.19 percent) and nurses (6.56 percent) also hold suicide rates much higher than the national average.

So the next time you go to the dentist, call him/her a hero and give them a headline.

Honestly, if I had to look in people’s filthy pie holes for my life’s work...Only slightly above a proctologist.

Last edited by Hooper; 05-01-2020 at 04:40 AM.
Old 05-01-2020, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by dssmith View Post
I'm sorry about any suicide. There's nothing heroic about committing suicide. (My condolences to her father who insists she is a Hero)
I think those that keep doing their jobs in the face of heavy work loads and trying circumstances are to be lauded. On any job.

Here's a little ditty about suicide in healthcare settings:
Male dentists hold the highest suicide rate at 8.02 percent. Female dentists hold the fourth highest suicide rate at 5.28 percent. Physicians (7.87 percent), pharmacists (7.19 percent) and nurses (6.56 percent) also hold suicide rates much higher than the national average.

So the next time you go to the dentist, call him/her a hero and give them a headline.
drugs
Old 05-01-2020, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by slm9s View Post
There was a lot of pressure on her and she saw a lot of poopy outcomes, tough on anyone...
If that was the issue, how about ambulance guys?
Old 05-01-2020, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by slm9s View Post
There was a lot of pressure on her and she saw a lot of poopy outcomes, tough on anyone...
So she figured killing herself wouldn't be tough on her family? She was either selfish enough that she didn't care how they felt, or her mental illness was bad enough that she couldn't think clearly about how it would affect them.
If it was option 2, I'm not confident many people would want her as their doctor.
I still feel bad, as it's still a tragedy, no matter what the cause.

I feel bad when anyone commits suicide, but I'm not going to label that person a hero. I'm sure it's tough on someone to see death, but you kinda have to expect it in an ER.
I don't like heights, so I'm not going to take a job as a telephone lineman and climb telephone poles. If being unable to save everyone was driving me to depression, I'd find another job.

Sad to say it, but at any other time, her suicide would never make it past the local news. But because she saw covid cases and she herself got sick, it made news.
Old 05-01-2020, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by DrDanH View Post
This is a topic that is frequently discussed on Dockside Chat, and I presume also on other open forums where sharing of thoughts is encouraged. Talking about suicide and about resources to prevent suicide is crucial, and I applaud each of you who have found a positive solution to your concerns.

Risk of suicide is highly correlated with mood disorderssuch as Major Depression and Bipolar Disorder, as well as other mental health issues such as substance abuse. The highest predictor of suicide is a prior suicide attempt. According to the CDC:

Risk Factors
  • Family history of suicide
  • Family history of child maltreatment
  • Previous suicide attempt(s)
  • History of mental disorders, particularly clinical depression
  • History of alcohol and substance abuse
  • Feelings of hopelessness
  • Impulsive or aggressive tendencies
  • Cultural and religious beliefs (e.g., belief that suicide is noble resolution of a personal dilemma)
  • Local epidemics of suicide
  • Isolation, a feeling of being cut off from other people
  • Barriers to accessing mental health treatment
  • Loss (relational, social, work, or financial)
  • Physical illness
  • Easy access to lethal methods
  • Unwillingness to seek help because of the stigma attached to mental health and substance abuse disorders or to suicidal thoughts
Protective Factors
  • Effective clinical care for mental, physical, and substance abuse disorders
  • Easy access to a variety of clinical interventions and support for help seeking
  • Family and community support (connectedness)
  • Support from ongoing medical and mental health care relationships
  • Skills in problem solving, conflict resolution, and nonviolent ways of handling disputes
  • Cultural and religious beliefs that discourage suicide and support instincts for self-preservation
There is always help available! If suicide starts to become an option for you or someone else, reach out for help. Familiarize yourself with local resources (community mental health, mobile crisis response, crisis hotlines, VA services). Call 9-1-1 if needed, police are trained to help in this situation.

Take any threat of suicide seriously. Do not dismiss someone's threats of self harm or dare them to do it! [Yes, I have seen this, and the results are not pretty!]

Do not shy away from asking if someone is contemplating suicide. There is no research to suggest that asking about suicide will prompt someone to commit suicide. On the contrary, asking about it shows that you care and want to help. Ask politely, gently, but directly. ("I have been listening to the things you have been saying, and I care about you. I need to ask if you have been having thoughts about killing yourself. Please let me help you...").

In my role as a clinical psychologist, I have dealt with thousands of patients who have had suicidal ideation or prior suicide attempts, as well as thousands of family members and others affected by suicides of loved ones. I would not characterize suicide as "selfish," simply because I do not believe that people struggling with depression and suicidal ideation are able to contemplate the impact of the act upon others. Every single patient I have met who has survived an attempt has expressed regret about their act and the harm it caused to others. Those contemplating suicide, as well as those affected by suicide, need and deserve our compassion and support, not our scorn.
Thanks, Doctor.
Old 05-01-2020, 06:43 AM
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It's very sad. Without revealing too much, I know a bit about suicide and the pain it causes. I think it's fair to say this doctor already had some mental health issues, and her recent experiences pushed her over the edge. I agree with others that suicide is a selfish act. Still, its tragic and I feel for her and the family.
Old 05-01-2020, 07:48 AM
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As I noted above, I have difficulty labeling the desperate act of a person who is suffering from severe emotional or physical pain as "selfish." They need our help, not our derision.

Even if we agreed that suicide was "selfish," what good does it do to label it as such after the fact? Someone who is deceased is not affected by others' judgmental beliefs, although their families and others can certainly be affected. People who are in such distress that they are considering suicide are not likely to be deterred by the idea that others may judge them "selfish." Such judgment only makes them less likely to reach out for help.

Does labeling a suicide "selfish" make one feel superior in some way (e.g., "I have been through <insert the trauma or loss experienced>, and I never considered suicide..."), or have they just been more fortunate?

Old 05-01-2020, 07:49 AM
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we can form all the opinions based off the limited info in the article we want! chances are there is alot more to the story, the current covid out break stressors was just the straw that broke the camels back! what we do not know is her life history along with any situations going on at home. we want to focus on the virus and state oh she couldnt handle it, which is easy to say, especially with out knowing her life details, home life with significant others and or children.
Old 05-01-2020, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by bhfishing7 View Post
Should have quit and worked at a grocery store.
Why the hostility?

Did she hurt you?
Old 05-01-2020, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Tireless View Post
People commit suicide everyday.
That's an unfortunate fact.
Old 05-01-2020, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by billinstuart View Post
If that was the issue, how about ambulance guys?

https://www.jems.com/2015/09/28/surv...ts-of-suicide/
Old 05-01-2020, 10:10 AM
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Where did Rickboat go? In his bunker?
Old 05-01-2020, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by stimpson.j.cat View Post
Intertesting, but why? Stress? Why not lifestyle or some other reason?

Kinda like celebrities/rock stars dying at a higher rate. Playing music and acting is dangerous? No..lifestyle.

BTW..EMS respondents? There's a statistical flaw right there.
Old 05-01-2020, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by billinstuart View Post
EMS respondents? There's a statistical flaw right there.
Although people who respond to surveys are not identical to the general population, those differences are minor. With an n=4022 (which is a huge sample in research) and finding an incidence rate of suicidal ideation that is 10 times higher among "EMS survey respondents" than the general population, it is virtually certain that the independent variable (working for EMS) is the cause of the finding.
Old 05-01-2020, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by billinstuart View Post
Intertesting, but why? Stress? Why not lifestyle or some other reason?

Kinda like celebrities/rock stars dying at a higher rate. Playing music and acting is dangerous? No..lifestyle.

BTW..EMS respondents? There's a statistical flaw right there.
I wonder if being close to it makes it less scary somehow , takes away that fear of the unknown . I read a story about some guys learning how to be Naval pilots and one guys wife was terrified of it . One day they invited the families out to watch them do simulated landings at the base . Another student pilot got it wrong or his plane broke on approach and she watched him perish . After that she was fine with it .
Maybe just seeing it makes it an option in the EMS's minds ... takes it from abstract to real ? Something cements it in there .
Old 05-01-2020, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDanH View Post
Although people who respond to surveys are not identical to the general population, those differences are minor. With an n=4022 (which is a huge sample in research) and finding an incidence rate of suicidal ideation that is 10 times higher among "EMS survey respondents" than the general population, it is virtually certain that the independent variable (working for EMS) is the cause of the finding.
Well DrDanH, would you recommend all 37% of those EMS people to quit and find a "safer" job? You could insert Dentists, Physicians, Nurses, Pharmacists etc btw.

I have actually read the "article" cited by Stimpson.Cat and find it to be a survey rather than a scientific study. Once again proving that anyone with a copy/paste keyboard can make a citation from a "Journal" and claim expertise on a boating website.

Here's my cut and paste from the publication:
A group at Ambulance Service Manager, which consisted of seven individuals from Missouri, Texas, Oregon, Colorado, California and Nevada, created the survey questions. This survey, hosted by SurveyMonkey, was then sent to all employees of each member’s EMS system as well as continuing education classmates, the Trauma Regional Advisory Council, the National EMS Management Association and other contacts from the medical field. Many recipients then shared the survey via social media, allowing the survey to spread to providers and organizations across the country.

Hardly a randomized study. Not peer reviewed in any way. The conclusions and data are mixed and smack of correlation equals causation. Article made by " Reviving Responders. This began as a research assignment from Fitch & Associates’ Ambulance Service Manager Program, which is designed to provide new leaders and managers with an up-to-date curriculum of the industry’s best practices and foremost challenges. Nonscientists posing as scientists. A special interest subset of EMT's. BillinStuart is on to something.

I'm not arguing against proper psychiatric and psychological care for those ill enough to consider suicide. People so afflicted need and require it. This can be life saving. There has to be more of a solution than calling out those that refer to suicide as selfish and parsing that thought scheme. I do not believe people that view suicide as selfish are responsible an any way for someone not reaching out for help, nor causing the suicide.

So, should people who contemplate suicide quit their jobs as a remedy? You will find it difficult to make medicine or dentistry unstressful.
Old 05-01-2020, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by dssmith View Post
Well DrDanH, would you recommend all 37% of those EMS people to quit and find a "safer" job? You could insert Dentists, Physicians, Nurses, Pharmacists etc btw.

I have actually read the "article" cited by Stimpson.Cat and find it to be a survey rather than a scientific study. Once again proving that anyone with a copy/paste keyboard can make a citation from a "Journal" and claim expertise on a boating website.

Here's my cut and paste from the publication:
A group at Ambulance Service Manager, which consisted of seven individuals from Missouri, Texas, Oregon, Colorado, California and Nevada, created the survey questions. This survey, hosted by SurveyMonkey, was then sent to all employees of each member’s EMS system as well as continuing education classmates, the Trauma Regional Advisory Council, the National EMS Management Association and other contacts from the medical field. Many recipients then shared the survey via social media, allowing the survey to spread to providers and organizations across the country.

Hardly a randomized study. Not peer reviewed in any way. The conclusions and data are mixed and smack of correlation equals causation. Article made by " Reviving Responders. This began as a research assignment from Fitch & Associates’ Ambulance Service Manager Program, which is designed to provide new leaders and managers with an up-to-date curriculum of the industry’s best practices and foremost challenges. Nonscientists posing as scientists. A special interest subset of EMT's. BillinStuart is on to something.

I'm not arguing against proper psychiatric and psychological care for those ill enough to consider suicide. People so afflicted need and require it. This can be life saving. There has to be more of a solution than calling out those that refer to suicide as selfish and parsing that thought scheme. I do not believe people that view suicide as selfish are responsible an any way for someone not reaching out for help, nor causing the suicide.

So, should people who contemplate suicide quit their jobs as a remedy? You will find it difficult to make medicine or dentistry unstressful.
I would be interested in seeing statistics from a real, peer-reviewed study. Post a link if you know of one.

I recommend that people who have stressful jobs - including doctors (such as yourself), dentists, EMS, mental health providers, and others- seek professional support if needed. I was truthfully surprised by the “selfish” comment you made, which, as I have said, seems harsh and judgmental.

I have an issue with anyone who discourages people who need help from seeking help, due to their personal biases. Ironically, billinstuart, the poster you mentioned above, does this habitually on many Dockside threads related to mental health, with seemingly little regard for the potential for harm. I am sure he feels justified in this based upon his personal experiences.




Old 05-01-2020, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Qb1rdman View Post
Where did Rickboat go? In his bunker?
Was he the one that posted on this thread late last night hoping that several members children got sick and died of the virus because they aren't scared of it? Looks like it was deleted

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