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Old 06-05-2019, 05:09 AM
  #101  
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My wife is a 3rd grade teacher (20+years) and makes respectable money. I told her a few years ago that she should keep track of her total work hours for a calendar year because when she tallies it up she is making not much more than minimum wage.

I hear some of you complain about government pensions. Around here it is a trade off. You can make significantly more money in the private sector without a pension or make less money with a pension at a government job.
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Old 06-05-2019, 05:30 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by autobaun70 View Post
Pay is tough to put a number on.

Retirement should be 100% private sector based, and not tied to a state pension.
Not sure what you mean by this? The "private sector" that pays for ALL government services - schools, public utilities (for the most part), police/fire/EMS, infrastructure, lawmakers, etc. and RETIREMENT (with some exceptions) - is the TAXPAYER.

Are you saying that GM or Phillip Morris or Kroger or ??? should be funding government retirement? They already DO, through TAXES. But it 'ain't ENOUGH - that's why us working folks have to pay, TOO! Seems to work fine in Virginia. But there are too many states that are WAY underfunded in public sector pensions/benefits - mostly ones that have strong "unions" that negotiate their demands on the public sector employers. THAT'S where the problem begins - that's where you get the 100% "retirement" salaries and FREE healthcare and FREE this and that!

If you WORK in the private sector, then, sure - your employer should provide some type of retirement - OR, you can become a "free agent" and find one that DOES give you all the benefits you're seeking.

As MANY here have said - most folks DON'T go into public education to be rollin' in dough. They do it because they WANT to do it and WANT to try to make a difference in a system that is CONSTANTLY underfunded, over-worked and has a crumbling infrastructure.

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Old 06-05-2019, 05:43 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by WaterEnjoyer View Post
i know many. kids are at school 6 hours and 35 minutes.
Lol...you're clueless. Do you think teachers only show up and then leave when the kids are there?
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Old 06-05-2019, 06:18 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by R Days View Post
.... You can make significantly more money in the private sector without a pension or make less money with a pension at a government job.
Mythology that is used to substantiate an old argument.
In fact, elected officials are dealing out contracts and pensions like monopoly money in some jurisdictions, and in others they are tighter than a drum.

Certainly some teachers can make more in the private sector, but just as certainly some are completely unable to compete in the private sector.
Some are motivated by a desire to teach, irrespective of the competition or compensation.
There is no "one size fits all".

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Old 06-05-2019, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by WaterEnjoyer View Post
i know many. kids are at school 6 hours and 35 minutes.
At my school (I teach middle school science and SS at a small rural K-8 in Oregon) kids are at school for seven hours (8:00-3:00) and teachers’ contract day is from 7:30-3:30 (plus after school events) and teachers spend an extra 30-60 minutes a day at school most days. Not to mention at-home prep and grading...
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Old 06-05-2019, 06:35 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by RyanL11 View Post
Lol...you're clueless. Do you think teachers only show up and then leave when the kids are there?
i know exactly what time they are required to be at school. I see what time they get there including the ones that arrive early. I do not see what time they leave although I have friends that are teachers in the district. One has offered many times to bring my kid home from school. She brings hers home everyday at the parent pickup time and figured they could play after school.
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Old 06-05-2019, 06:58 AM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by WaterEnjoyer View Post
i know exactly what time they are required to be at school. I see what time they get there including the ones that arrive early. I do not see what time they leave although I have friends that are teachers in the district. One has offered many times to bring my kid home from school. She brings hers home everyday at the parent pickup time and figured they could play after school.
So you have it all figured out and know exactly what goes into teaching?

What do you do for a living, if you don't mind me asking.
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Old 06-05-2019, 07:04 AM
  #108  
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Friend of mine and his wife are retired CPS (Chicago Public Schools). Their combined pension income is over $175k.
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Old 06-05-2019, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce W View Post
Not sure what you mean by this? The "private sector" that pays for ALL government services - schools, public utilities (for the most part), police/fire/EMS, infrastructure, lawmakers, etc. and RETIREMENT (with some exceptions) - is the TAXPAYER.

Are you saying that GM or Phillip Morris or Kroger or ??? should be funding government retirement? They already DO, through TAXES. But it 'ain't ENOUGH - that's why us working folks have to pay, TOO! Seems to work fine in Virginia. But there are too many states that are WAY underfunded in public sector pensions/benefits - mostly ones that have strong "unions" that negotiate their demands on the public sector employers. THAT'S where the problem begins - that's where you get the 100% "retirement" salaries and FREE healthcare and FREE this and that!

If you WORK in the private sector, then, sure - your employer should provide some type of retirement - OR, you can become a "free agent" and find one that DOES give you all the benefits you're seeking.

As MANY here have said - most folks DON'T go into public education to be rollin' in dough. They do it because they WANT to do it and WANT to try to make a difference in a system that is CONSTANTLY underfunded, over-worked and has a crumbling infrastructure.

Regards,
Bruce,

What do you think is a reasonable annual expenditure per student in the state of VA for a public education?

If you were paying out of pocket to educate your child without any assisstance, what would you be willing to pay per year?
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Old 06-05-2019, 07:15 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by Dan_F View Post


At my school (I teach middle school science and SS at a small rural K-8 in Oregon) kids are at school for seven hours (8:00-3:00) and teachers’ contract day is from 7:30-3:30 (plus after school events) and teachers spend an extra 30-60 minutes a day at school most days. Not to mention at-home prep and grading...
What goes on June through August, half of December, and part of March?

I don't have a "contracted" time to be at work. I just need to put in the appropriate time to get my shit done and rarely does that equate to a sub 8 hour day. I often times have to speak to people in Singapore, Tagiug, Bangalore, London, Tokyo, Antwerp, which means I need to get up in the middle of the night. Hell, I'm on vacation this week and just spent 2 hours sifting through emails to put out brush fires before they turn into a raging hot dumpster fire by the time I get back. And when (not IF) there is a raging dumpster fire, the expectation is I am involved regardless time of day, on leave, sick, or any personal matters.

Frankly, I'm sick of the whole argument and teacher hero worship. I hear it from my looser brother in law constantly. I think they are paid at least appropriately for the TOTAL amount of time put in. IMO - None of them are starving.
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Old 06-05-2019, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by RyanL11 View Post
So you have it all figured out and know exactly what goes into teaching?

What do you do for a living, if you don't mind me asking.
i have a pretty good idea as to what goes on. I also realize that most NJ teachers do not have an accurate understanding of what goes on in the real world. They are in an echo chamber. They do not understand that pensions do not exist anymore. They do not understand what kinds of healthcare the average person has. They do not understand what the average person pays for that average healthcare. They do not understand that many professional jobs require people to do work at home and on weekends without additional pay in order to succeed.
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Old 06-05-2019, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by NCSUboater View Post
you are exactly right. The south is full of us stupid people with our southern public school learnings. Algebra might as well be rocket surgery! It's also contagious so best to stay away.

(I went to a public school in rural NC so I resemble that remark)
Don't get too worked up over my comment and take it personally I'm making sweeping generalizations, I went to school in the South and my kids do too(Florida, which bucks the trend). But the numbers say that the South pays lousy for teachers, the South also has ranks worst regionally in education and uses more federal aid. Of course there are better areas and better schools but on the whole why would anyone now want to stick with teaching other than the love of it. I give teachers and social workers much respect.
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Old 06-05-2019, 07:32 AM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by WaterEnjoyer View Post
i have a pretty good idea as to what goes on. I also realize that most NJ teachers do not have an accurate understanding of what goes on in the real world. They are in an echo chamber. They do not understand that pensions do not exist anymore. They do not understand what kinds of healthcare the average person has. They do not understand what the average person pays for that average healthcare. They do not understand that many professional jobs require people to do work at home and on weekends without additional pay in order to succeed.
I'm not sure whether you're trolling at this point or just need to expand your sample size. NY/NJ isn't really a good representation of the other 48 states.
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Old 06-05-2019, 08:02 AM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by Capt Grady 23 Gulfstream View Post
All the above says ANYONE with a Master's degree should NEVER be a teacher or professor. No need for those positions to require that credential, and MAYBE not even a degree at all, since the curriculum and instruction is laid out in obvious manner.

Teachers and Professors at least to my knowledge, don't change or contribute to the curriculum and instruction manner.

I am neither, so if I am off track correct me..

I realize that is not what the OP asked. But my comments are relative to the commensurate salary scale.
They most certainly do contribute to the curriculum and instruction manner. Hell, they have to submit lesson plans for approval each summer and many after each marking period. They come up with the idea for any 'projects' in the class. Those aren't given to them, they create them. They are told what they need to accomplish, not how to get there. Main exception being places that enforce common core math, but that can still be taught a few different ways, which the teacher again can select. Not only that, the teacher needs to adapt their teaching method to make sure the kids are learning the material. They are given a needed end result by admin but have to design their own road to get there.

That said, not everyone gets their masters to maximize income. Some become teachers because they want to help provide better education, and that is their priority ahead of income.
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Old 06-05-2019, 08:02 AM
  #115  
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It really doesn't matter what state you live in. Too much money is being spent on education with too little results to show for it. That is not to say all teachers are overpaid, it is just to say that the system is a failed system and paying teachers more money will not fix a broken system no more than paying a lot of money for new chrome rims would make a 1974 Impala a new Corvette.

In my state, per capita spending is roughly $10k. The top private prep school in my area is $14k. Give me my share of the $10k and I will add 4k of my own money and put my kid in the top prep school. Makes more sense than shelling out another 4k in tax dollars to give teachers a raise with no tangible results.

I get tired of hearing the sob stories about public workers not getting paid enough. There is plenty of tax money in the pot, its just not getting allocated where it needs to get allocated and there is too much waste and inefficiency. The private school I send my kid too does a superior job to the local public school and it costs me under $5k per year. If school vouchers were passed the teachers at his school would get a nice bump in pay and the school could upgrade its facilities, or, I could spend less out of pocket than I do now and my kid still get a great education.

Read the numbers and tell me we don't spend enough on education.
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Old 06-05-2019, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Still Stoked View Post



^^^^ is more accurate. My wife retired after 30 years in a classroom. Lots of her own money, lots of her own time, lots of meetings, lots of summer stuff required… It’s not as simple as three months off. And the crap they have to put up with from helicopter parents, politicians, minimal support staff, lacking supplies… You get the idea.

they have to really want to teach to put up with the shit show in today’s classroom. Bless most of them.
This. I always laugh at the people, especially in this site that have such a disdain for teachers and act like it’s a cake walk summers off no 8 hour days job. Like any job there are folks that aren’t good at their jobs, that doesn’t mean they all suck. With the stories my wife tells me, there is no dollar amount you could pay me to get me in a classroom.

As as far as pay, my wife is a city public school teacher in PA and makes close to 60k with 12 years of service.
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Old 06-05-2019, 08:15 AM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by 1976K204x4 View Post
Why should the State not offer a retirement plan?
Any other employer has the option to do so.
They should absolutely offer a retirement plan. Something that is personally owned by the employee, not controlled and held by the state. Any bucket of funds held by the state is subject to being pilfered by the politicians running that state, no different than social security at the national level. A generous match to go along with employee investment (perhaps mandatory) and the ability to self direct the investment of those funds would be much better.
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Old 06-05-2019, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by TorFed View Post
They most certainly do contribute to the curriculum and instruction manner. Hell, they have to submit lesson plans for approval each summer and many after each marking period. They come up with the idea for any 'projects' in the class. Those aren't given to them, they create them. They are told what they need to accomplish, not how to get there. Main exception being places that enforce common core math, but that can still be taught a few different ways, which the teacher again can select. Not only that, the teacher needs to adapt their teaching method to make sure the kids are learning the material. They are given a needed end result by admin but have to design their own road to get there.

That said, not everyone gets their masters to maximize income. Some become teachers because they want to help provide better education, and that is their priority ahead of income.
Originally Posted by jtav2002 View Post


This. I always laugh at the people, especially in this site that have such a disdain for teachers and act like it’s a cake walk summers off no 8 hour days job. Like any job there are folks that aren’t good at their jobs, that doesn’t mean they all suck. With the stories my wife tells me, there is no dollar amount you could pay me to get me in a classroom.
both of you echo my sentiments exactly.
In my very close friend circle, about 50% of them are teachers. Including my wife. I have a very good idea of what teachers deal with on a daily basis.
And they most definitely aren't told "how" to teach the curriculum. They are merely told "what" to teach.
If someone's experience as a student is with a teacher who does the bare minimum and doesn't care one iota about ensuring that EVERY kid in the class room truly learns, then perhaps that's why that person now has no understanding or respect for educators.
But the shit that my wife and friends deal with, not just with the kids, but with the parents is mind blowing. And if a teacher really does care about their students, then that 7-4:30 workday that some simpletons think teachers enjoy becomes a legit 24/7 job.
The time that the teachers I know get off during the summers and christmas are 100% deserved, particularly considering the shit pay they get (plus the out of pocket expenses).

The lack of respect these days for teachers is astounding and is a far cry from when I was a child. I can't help but think that that erosion of respect plays a huge part in why our nation, as a whole, falls pretty far behind much of the rest of the world in education.
R Days and rickboat like this.
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Old 06-05-2019, 08:26 AM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by Bruce W View Post
Not sure what you mean by this? The "private sector" that pays for ALL government services - schools, public utilities (for the most part), police/fire/EMS, infrastructure, lawmakers, etc. and RETIREMENT (with some exceptions) - is the TAXPAYER.

Are you saying that GM or Phillip Morris or Kroger or ??? should be funding government retirement? They already DO, through TAXES. But it 'ain't ENOUGH - that's why us working folks have to pay, TOO! Seems to work fine in Virginia. But there are too many states that are WAY underfunded in public sector pensions/benefits - mostly ones that have strong "unions" that negotiate their demands on the public sector employers. THAT'S where the problem begins - that's where you get the 100% "retirement" salaries and FREE healthcare and FREE this and that!

If you WORK in the private sector, then, sure - your employer should provide some type of retirement - OR, you can become a "free agent" and find one that DOES give you all the benefits you're seeking.

As MANY here have said - most folks DON'T go into public education to be rollin' in dough. They do it because they WANT to do it and WANT to try to make a difference in a system that is CONSTANTLY underfunded, over-worked and has a crumbling infrastructure.

Regards,
By private sector I simply mean that teacher (and state/public employee retirement accounts in general) should be personally owned by the individual contributor. They should not be a bucket of money held by the state with an IOU, and subject to pilfering by politicians. Scares me to death that our state retirement system is horribly underfunded compared to future liabilities...........and my family may one day be impacted by the shortfall. And specifically that we don't have an alternative investment vehicle that we could put some that retirement money into on the front end. We do have an optional additional retirement fund which we generously contribute to, but the guarantees behind the state controlled portion are sketchy at best.
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Old 06-05-2019, 08:36 AM
  #120  
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It's the sense of entitlement that teachers have about their pay that drives me crazy. It's like "I want to do this for a living so I demand you pay me better". Tough shit, there are a lot of jobs/careers that people may like doing but don't pay a ton of money, an artist or musician or even an airline pilot (for a regional, they make no money), you don't hear those folks demanding a higher pay rate. If you have a problem with the pay go do something else. And all this talk of how hard they work, I'm sure many do, but also go start your own business and then come talk to me about your dedication and hard work, we all do it not just teachers.
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