Go Back  The Hull Truth - Boating and Fishing Forum > BOATING FORUMS > Dockside Chat
Reload this Page >

Calling on Cracker or any other LEOs to respond

Notices
Like Tree45Likes

Calling on Cracker or any other LEOs to respond

Old 05-01-2019, 07:37 AM
  #41  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 359
Default

Originally Posted by autobaun70 View Post
It's one more thing to have to manipulate. Not sure about everywhere, but the retention holsters used by our local sheriff's department and city police have a button that is pressed on the outside side of the holster, right where your trigger finger naturally lies. The purpose of a retention holster is largely to prevent someone from accessing the gun and using it against the LEO, not to prevent negligent discharges. It's a balancing act between keeping control of their weapon, and being able to get on target and deploy a round as fast as possible. The retention holster in that regard helps the officer maintain control of their weapon. A manual safety hinders their ability to fire once the gun is intentionally drawn. There is a reason they are not popular with law enforcement agencies. The don't help them in a time of need.
I suggest you read up more on Serpa holsters and negligent discharges.
https://lockedback.com/lapd-bans-use...serpa-holster/
https://www.usacarry.com/forums/gene...ters-suck.html

The ones I am talking about are Safariland retention holsters which my local department uses which do not suffer from the issues the Serpa's have had.
I am well aware of what the purpose and funtion of a holster is for.
Would you keep a loaded glock in your gym bag unholstered?
netjob is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 07:42 AM
  #42  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: West of my Right mind...
Posts: 4,274
Default

Just goes to show that fondling your weapon in a room full of school children is never a good idea.
Uncas is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 07:45 AM
  #43  
Senior MemberCaptains Club MemberPLEDGER
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 10,434
Default

Originally Posted by netjob View Post
Would you keep a loaded glock in your gym bag unholstered?
Hell no. Or anywhere else where anything/anyone could come in contact with the trigger.

That's my overall point. This discharge had to be rooted in negligence. Not sure if that negligence was a guy fiddling with his gun, improperly holstering his gun, etc. But it had to be negligence.
autobaun70 is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 07:49 AM
  #44  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 359
Default

Originally Posted by autobaun70 View Post
Hell no. Or anywhere else where anything/anyone could come in contact with the trigger.

That's my overall point. This discharge had to be rooted in negligence. Not sure if that negligence was a guy fiddling with his gun, improperly holstering his gun, etc. But it had to be negligence.
I agree completely.
netjob is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 07:50 AM
  #45  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: St. Augustine, Fl
Posts: 21,829
Default

Originally Posted by netjob View Post
I suggest you read up more on Serpa holsters and negligent discharges.
https://lockedback.com/lapd-bans-use...serpa-holster/
https://www.usacarry.com/forums/gene...ters-suck.html

The ones I am talking about are Safariland retention holsters which my local department uses which do not suffer from the issues the Serpa's have had.
I am well aware of what the purpose and funtion of a holster is for.
Would you keep a loaded glock in your gym bag unholstered?
Autobaun70 is correct. The a SECURITY HOLSTER which is what everyone carries (actual manufacturers differ) is more about keeping unauthorized access to the weapon. The general purpose of a holster is to carry a gun and keep the trigger covered thou.

The KISS principal has been shown to SAVE LIVES in both COMBAT situations and POLICE SHOOTINGS.. particularly in police shootings they are reactive in nature. A safety on a gun does nothing to prevent negligent discharges as most departments have determined. One of the many reasons GLOCK dominates as US Police issue pistol.. The serpas holster is not a good choice as you posted sir..

have a great day..
Cracker is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 08:06 AM
  #46  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 359
Default

Originally Posted by Cracker View Post
Autobaun70 is correct. The a SECURITY HOLSTER which is what everyone carries (actual manufacturers differ) is more about keeping unauthorized access to the weapon. The general purpose of a holster is to carry a gun and keep the trigger covered thou.

The KISS principal has been shown to SAVE LIVES in both COMBAT situations and POLICE SHOOTINGS.. particularly in police shootings they are reactive in nature. A safety on a gun does nothing to prevent negligent discharges as most departments have determined. One of the many reasons GLOCK dominates as US Police issue pistol.. The serpas holster is not a good choice as you posted sir..

have a great day..
I never said that a level 3 retention holster's sole purpose was to prevent a negligent discharge.. A holster has many purposes obviously.
I was contemplating the fact that it takes multiple hand manipulations of the holster to remove the firearm.

Do you not see the similarity of those retention holster manipulaitons to the easy down flip of a 1911 style manual safety? Or do we just ignore that?
By your KISS policy, we shouldn't even use multi-level retention holsters. So why do we? Cause it's safer??? Maybe?
If you watch the Safariland video, you will see that they sure do expect the officer to perform multiple steps to release the firearm.


Last edited by netjob; 05-01-2019 at 08:22 AM.
netjob is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 08:34 AM
  #47  
Senior MemberCaptains Club MemberPLEDGER
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 10,434
Default

Originally Posted by netjob View Post
I never said that a level 3 retention holster's sole purpose was to prevent a negligent discharge.. A holster has many purposes obviously.
I was contemplating the fact that it takes multiple hand manipulations of the holster to remove the firearm.

Do you not see the similarity of those retention holster manipulaitons to the easy down flip of a 1911 style manual safety? Or do we just ignore that?
By your KISS policy, we shouldn't even use multi-level retention holsters. So why do we? Cause it's safer??? Maybe?
If you watch the Safariland video, you will see that they sure do expect the officer to perform multiple steps to release the firearm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=120&v=HIKaZJGAWKE
The whole thing is a manual safety is not needed on a gun that is not carried cocked and locked. Nobody is carrying 1911's for police duty these days (outside of texas and a handful of high ranking officers/investigators anyway). Its extra, and extra with no benefit to the officer = bad idea every time. A retention holster can arguably benefit the safety of officer. A manual safety cannot, unless they have a short circuit between their ears. If that is the case, chances are they are in the wrong profession anyway, and no safety measure you implement is going to benefit them or the public.
autobaun70 is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 08:42 AM
  #48  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 359
Default

Originally Posted by autobaun70 View Post
The whole thing is a manual safety is not needed on a gun that is not carried cocked and locked. Nobody is carrying 1911's for police duty these days (outside of texas and a handful of high ranking officers/investigators anyway). Its extra, and extra with no benefit to the officer = bad idea every time. A retention holster can arguably benefit the safety of officer. A manual safety cannot, unless they have a short circuit between their ears. If that is the case, chances are they are in the wrong profession anyway, and no safety measure you implement is going to benefit them or the public.
I hear you auto and don't disagree with what you say about the holsters. I will say that, excluding Glocks, most striker fired pistols these days are really single action only. Carrying them with a round chambered is essentially Condition Zero. Not even Condition 1 Cocked and locked. Just cocked. Do you agree? or is it the presence of the external hammer that makes it different?

netjob is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 08:52 AM
  #49  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Destin, FL
Posts: 463
Default

Originally Posted by Cracker View Post
Disagree an external safety is one more thing to be flipping or whatever... simple is better and just keeping your booger digger out of the trigger is much more effective in my humble opinion..
Concur; worth repeating.
Cracker and JKBrad like this.
trejsic.mejsic is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 08:57 AM
  #50  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Fort Pierce,FL
Posts: 5,050
Default

Originally Posted by nautiduck View Post
Guarantee the dumbass was playing with it.
Yeah I remember when Philadelphia went to the Glocks a couple of officers shot themselves in the leg while sitting in the patrol car. They sued Glock. They blamed it on Glocks lack of safety but not their finger on the trigger of a gun that was out of the holster.
Once I almost had a accidental discharge during training. The training was plain clothes and hot and heavy, lots of running and multiple targets. I went to return my 19 to the holster and it didnt want to go in. So against department policy I looked down at the holster and my T shirt had got stuck inside the trigger guard. It looked like a little finger of cotton sticking through. If I had forced it into the holster it probably would have discharged.
barrell is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 08:58 AM
  #51  
Senior MemberCaptains Club MemberPLEDGER
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 10,434
Default

Originally Posted by netjob View Post
I hear you auto and don't disagree with what you say about the holsters. I will say that, excluding Glocks, most striker fired pistols these days are really single action only. Carrying them with a round chambered is essentially Condition Zero. Not even Condition 1 Cocked and locked. Just cocked. Do you agree? or is it the presence of the external hammer that makes it different?
The trigger pull (both length and weight) on a striker fired gun and a SAO gun are significantly different. Especially in stock form.
autobaun70 is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 09:20 AM
  #52  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 359
Default

Originally Posted by autobaun70 View Post
The trigger pull (both length and weight) on a striker fired gun and a SAO gun are significantly different. Especially in stock form.
Have you ever shot a Series 80 1911 and a Sig p320 back to back?
netjob is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 09:24 AM
  #53  
Senior MemberCaptains Club MemberPLEDGER
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 10,434
Default

Originally Posted by netjob View Post
Have you ever shot a Series 80 1911 and a Sig p320 back to back?
Never shot anything Sig. Shoot glocks plenty though. Daily carry is a Kahr.

autobaun70 is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 09:51 AM
  #54  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: St. Augustine, Fl
Posts: 21,829
Default

Originally Posted by netjob View Post
I never said that a level 3 retention holster's sole purpose was to prevent a negligent discharge.. A holster has many purposes obviously.
I was contemplating the fact that it takes multiple hand manipulations of the holster to remove the firearm.

Do you not see the similarity of those retention holster manipulaitons to the easy down flip of a 1911 style manual safety? Or do we just ignore that?
By your KISS policy, we shouldn't even use multi-level retention holsters. So why do we? Cause it's safer??? Maybe?
If you watch the Safariland video, you will see that they sure do expect the officer to perform multiple steps to release the firearm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=120&v=HIKaZJGAWKE
You are arguing apples and oranges

Holsters have always done a GREAT job of making any retention device fairly similar in activation and ease of motion of the simple thumb snap. Same area, similar motion etc.

I was taught from age 23 to carry a Glock (Now 53) still working as a LEO. If you were to give a weapon with an external safety, I guarantee you I would have trouble in a high stress shoot situation because of all my prior years of training.

The Holster changes are very subtle in my opinion and very similar.

Sometimes adherence to the KISS principle by police cannot always be done BUT time and time again they come back to it for a reason. Under stress, you risk lives complicating things...

Are u a cop, military or firearms instructor?
JKBrad likes this.

Last edited by Cracker; 05-01-2019 at 09:59 AM.
Cracker is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 10:50 AM
  #55  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 840
Default

Everything everyone has said in here is all nicey nice and well and good...but we still have absolutely no idea what happened.

We know the gun had an "unintended discharge." As we all know, 99.9999999999999% of the time it's deemed negligent. However, we still know relatively nothing lol
HookMeUpII is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 12:08 PM
  #56  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 45
Default

Originally Posted by HookMeUpII View Post
Everything everyone has said in here is all nicey nice and well and good...but we still have absolutely no idea what happened.

We know the gun had an "unintended discharge." As we all know, 99.9999999999999% of the time it's deemed negligent. However, we still know relatively nothing lol
Originally Posted by TheRealMacGyver View Post
How does this happen? SROs Gun Goes Off In Holster At School

Guessing a Sig and not a Glock, but maybe that is foolish to think? Seriously, how does this happen with a retention holster? Just really weird to me. Thoughts?



It was a P320 .40, there are current lawsuits against sig by LEO's claiming exactly the same- weapon discharged by no fault of the officer from the holster.

Sig has already issued a recall due to it's known problems associated with serval "unintended discharges" associated with weight or impact applied to the striker plate. Most of the (acknowledged by sig) examples have been as a result of the weapon being dropped or "jostled" however there are several reported accusations from agencies/LEO's claiming unintended discharge from the holster as well.

[Google] P320 unintended discharge

Ref-
https://www.loudountimes.com/news/loudoun-county-deputy-sues-gun-manufacturer-for-million-after-having/article_020df2e2-7eda-11e8-951b-7b8d88341850.html
Tim_fl is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 01:21 PM
  #57  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 1,002
Default

Originally Posted by MrWesson View Post
I agree but if anything deserves the term accidental it would be a gun going off in a holster. Could also be a malfunction(like a hammer falling or striker). Just doesn't seem possible by design but i'm curious to what gun it was.
Sig classics have internal safety's to prevent just such an occurrence. While it may have been cocked, and in single action mode, it still won't fire unless the trigger is pulled by something. I' heard of a discharge at the local range that was caused by re-holstering with the trigger on the finger, and one where a jacket drawstring got caught in the trigger. The latter, I believe, was due to not de-cocking.
Chimpo is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 01:39 PM
  #58  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Breaux Bridge, Louisiana
Posts: 124
Default

Originally Posted by Cracker View Post
Disagree an external safety is one more thing to be flipping or whatever... simple is better and just keeping your booger digger out of the trigger is much more effective in my humble opinion..
agree 100 percent. I used to carry a HK USP 40 Compact as my duty gun. Wondering about the safety was a constant worry I had. Switched to glock and my blood pressure went down.
Cracker likes this.
Domoe is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 01:39 PM
  #59  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 840
Default

Originally Posted by Tim_fl View Post
It was a P320 .40, there are current lawsuits against sig by LEO's claiming exactly the same- weapon discharged by no fault of the officer from the holster.

Sig has already issued a recall due to it's known problems associated with serval "unintended discharges" associated with weight or impact applied to the striker plate. Most of the (acknowledged by sig) examples have been as a result of the weapon being dropped or "jostled" however there are several reported accusations from agencies/LEO's claiming unintended discharge from the holster as well.

[Google] P320 unintended discharge

Ref-
https://www.loudountimes.com/news/loudoun-county-deputy-sues-gun-manufacturer-for-million-after-having/article_020df2e2-7eda-11e8-951b-7b8d88341850.html
Well this is going to get interesting. Sucks for that officer for sure. However, when something like this happens in a school...the ball really gets rolling. I am going to assume there is security camera footage.
HookMeUpII is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 01:45 PM
  #60  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 866
Default

Why is Pasco County always in the news?
Mooney6959 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread