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Curious about the “Fish” you buy at the grocery store/restaurant

Old 04-15-2019, 10:53 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by mattbowen61990 View Post
What you think sounds rude, is your opinion, it doesn't make your opinion right, I use ignorant as "lack of knowledge, I even clarified it for you in that next sentence, it says "it simply means you don't know".

You mean the people that are actually scientist, yeah I tend to believe them. I also believe that your body doesn't know the difference between a GMO and a selectively bred crop. Which your "organic" apples are. Again people are ignorant on these topics, there was a study in Denmark, and 80% of people prefer a gene free tomato, over a GMO tomato...again ignorance on the topic, people who hated Monsanto for taking their business caused uproar, Nobody chases down DOW, Syngenta, or any other offshoot with different technology, they only target Monsanto because they held the largest market share. They done some crappy stuff, but I don't loop that in with GMO production.

Until they break a law, they are innocent according to our justice system right? Keep in mind their recent lawsuit was courted by a jury of non doctors, non scientist, just people who will act on emotion. As with anything, salt, sugar, organic water, too large of a dose will kill you, if you go out and drink the stuff straight from a bottle, well you probably wont live very long. But it's probably safer than what you get sprayed on your "organic" crop to keep bugs away. Remember just because it's natural doesn't mean its safe to ingest.


You can't call yourself doing research if you only do one sided research, you also can't call your sources credible, if they only agree with what you believe. If you believe that people in the "eat organic" side are really credible, you should realize who they are, and that they probably know about the same as you on the subject. You have an organic apple, but it was selectively bred over the years, for certain traits, you are ok with that, but when someone makes the same apple in a lab, in less time, suddenly it's not ok.... Again, that's the industry for you... Things made in a lab=bad, things made by humans selecting for certain phenotypes=good....

You can put all that stuff in your gut, but the bacteria already in your gut probably kill them off, they are there for a reason and don't care for intruders. All the people who already have your money are having a good time, eating whatever they want. What's all "organic" in your organic bread? What percentage of ingredients have to be organic to call a final product "organic"? It's not 100%....
Here is a snippet for you
"To be considered organic, breads must have ingredients that are grown without the use of pesticides, synthetic fertilizers, sewage sludge, genetically modified organisms (GMO's), or ionizing radiation. "
See why this is misleading? Because it can be grown with pesticides, synthetic fertilizers, long as they are considered "natural" they can be used, but which one sells more? The one that says "no pesticides", it's all a play on words to get you to buy.
It's funny to see people say stuff about fertilizer, and then realize the organic fields are just covered with manure, from chicken houses that have chickens that carry tons of disease. Even if we grew everything we ate at home, some things you have to kill bugs on, potatoes, peas, corn, collards. If you don't then the bugs will strip the leaves, love to see what organic farmers do about that... They probably wouldn't tell you, because if it got out people would freak. Stay at home mom's wouldn't know what to write their blog about, and they would be out terrorizing the farmers.... Thing's unknown are better left unknown to the man making a healthy profit off of ignorance.
Overdose on salt, sugar, organic water in the same discussion with glysophate and other obviously poison insecticides, even in SMALL doses, not overdoses is disgusting.

That skewed logic shows this discussion has gone too long, I'm through.

Now make all your childish remarks about me being Coward, unreasonable etc. You know I stayed much longer than I should, be real and be a man.
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Old 04-15-2019, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Capt Grady 23 Gulfstream View Post
It certainly is evidence from individuals. It's just not accepted evidence by some people who trust only paid professional sources. The fact that money is involved should ESPECIALLY send up red flags, such as WHO paid for the.e vidence. I have beat that subject to death, like MattBowen is beating his evidence to death.

Closing---even conversation face to face is evidence, ask any court or judge, so get off the criticism boat and on the logic boat please.
I'm on the reality boat.
Typed words copied from a twitter post is not evidence.
Conversation (or a twitter post by some random person) is just that. It is not evidence.

You state you are done. I don't believe you. My belief that you will not be done is only my opinion. When you post again, that will be evidence.
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Old 04-15-2019, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Capt Grady 23 Gulfstream View Post
Overdose on salt, sugar, organic water in the same discussion with glysophate and other obviously poison insecticides, even in SMALL doses, not overdoses is disgusting.

That skewed logic shows this discussion has gone too long, I'm through.

Now make all your childish remarks about me being Coward, unreasonable etc. You know I stayed much longer than I should, be real and be a man.
What skewed logic? You cant take a chemical with a LD value, and then say but this is different. They are the same thing, the poison is in the dose. But sure continue on the rant about only eat organic, you can continue being ignorant and spewing stuff you know nothing about, or you can become semi-educated, and it wont cost you anything but time. I don't know who called you names before in a conversation, but whatever lets you sleep at night.
Oh yeah, I forgot you would never research LD values, it's part of the scientist role, they are all shill's for Monsanto.

Plus, most of the information you have contributed here is all opinion, and is found written by people with no credibility. They just have a large enough following that it seems legit. It's not, and what you consider "evidence" is not scientifically backed, or peer reviewed. I'm guessing you are just a stubborn person, you have admitted that you never read actual scientific method sources as they are all "paid for by Monsanto". How about sources from companies that are competitors of Monsanto? They wish the doom of them every day, but even they cant back the stay at home mom's claims, but people like you can... it's a crazy idea, but maybe you should do un-biased research. Maybe there is something inorganic, in your organic green tea....

Last edited by mattbowen61990; 04-15-2019 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 04-15-2019, 12:05 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by mattbowen61990 View Post
If you drink enough vinegar it will kill you, it contains the same arsenic that your apple juice contains, it also contains tannins, and other compounds that will not be good for you,. It's all about dosing, water will kill you in high doses, you can drown yourself by drinking water, it has happened. You have to wear PPE when using any chemical, even the "organic" ones... There are plenty of things found in the environment, that you don't want to atomize and breathe in. If you don't know, you should really brush up on the other chemicals commonly used in agriculture, what's in your cell phone, and why nobody can afford to do cultivation now a days. Just not enough money in farming to spend all that extra on fuel, and time. Plus the rates that farmers are using are fairly low, and PPE is to protect you from more things than toxicity, some things are corrosive, so you don't want them on your clothes. Coca-Cola hovers right around pH 2.5, guess what the RCRA hazardous pH limit is, <2 or>12.5.... so its .5 pH points away from being hazardous waste by EPA standards....
Too much of anything can kill you. There is a lot of information on the negative side effects of glyphosphate. A recent study has it linked to autism. It was almost banned in Europe recently but given a five year extension. Yet your comparing it to water and vinegar. Its been shown to be an endocrine disrupter in lab testing, causing pregnancy issue sin women, and more. Its harmful too bees and other insects. Its not just bad for people who use it. If you consume food that was sprayed with it your whole life its not good for you. The USDA regularly test for other pesticides in food but not glyphosphate. In fact they cancelled pans to do so. Thats a little interesting dont you think? Im sure if you follow the money its not hard to figure out why though.
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Old 04-15-2019, 12:56 PM
  #85  
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Matt,

You can't win here. People are ignorant on this subject and they don't even know it. Folks just don't understand science any more and it is really sad. Remember the daminozide scare on apples years ago? Prime example people will believe anything especially if it is negative and the news media and celebrates jump on board.
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Old 04-15-2019, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by CWT View Post
Matt,

You can't win here. People are ignorant on this subject and they don't even know it. Folks just don't understand science any more and it is really sad. Remember the daminozide scare on apples years ago? Prime example people will believe anything especially if it is negative and the news media and celebrates jump on board.
And scientist do studies on it and prove it's negative
​side effects..... Your saying I dont understand science yet are disregarding scientific studies done with this chemical that show it's negative side effects. Have fun with that reasoning.
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Old 04-15-2019, 03:31 PM
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Mr. Pirate,

There are such things as credible sources. Those of us that understand agricultural and biological systems, chemistry, and toxicology, study and review sources that you have probably or most likely have never heard of. By the way when you are referring to "this" chemical which one are you referring to? Daminozide or what has been talked about ( Glyphosate ). Have you really studied these specific compounds and their interaction with human and other animal populations? Do you even know there mode of action? Do you know their primary, secondary breakdown products and how they react in the environment? Do you understand the term " Toxic "? Most people don't and you likely don't either, in fact I can tell you don't. Do you know why an organic nitrogen source is better than a man-made nitrogen source for plants? It is isn't it? Wrong again. Plants can only use two forms of nitrogen. NO3 and NH4. Those are organic right? Wrong again. Do you understand the nitrogen cycle or maybe you have never even heard of it. Do you even know that our earths atmosphere is made up of mostly..... Nitrogen? I wonder where our "man made" comes from? Why is it worse than nitrogen that degrades, through the nitrogen cycle, from cow sh*t. I could go on but I think I have shown you are ignorant of these issues. That is not a put down at all. You just have a lack of knowledge but you are acting like you have much knowledge. That however is not being ignorant. It is showing a lack of the willingness to learn.

Regards,

Chuck
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Old 04-15-2019, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ECU_Pirate View Post
Too much of anything can kill you. There is a lot of information on the negative side effects of glyphosphate. A recent study has it linked to autism. It was almost banned in Europe recently but given a five year extension. Yet your comparing it to water and vinegar. Its been shown to be an endocrine disrupter in lab testing, causing pregnancy issue sin women, and more. Its harmful too bees and other insects. Its not just bad for people who use it. If you consume food that was sprayed with it your whole life its not good for you. The USDA regularly test for other pesticides in food but not glyphosphate. In fact they cancelled pans to do so. Thats a little interesting dont you think? Im sure if you follow the money its not hard to figure out why though.
Let's break this down, GMO's are also banned in Europe, you know how much America cares about Europe? Last time I checked, we didn't care that much. They are not the forefront of anything, it's like saying Californa has prop 65, so we should follow them and we should all post that everything causes cancer.
You have any sources for your claims??
Do you have a source that says how long it stays in your body?
USDA probably test for the most toxic ones, they can't screen for every pesticide on the market, on ALL food. They also may not be able to detect the small amounts that may even exist there. Think about when people spray Glyphosate, Usually when the plant is a few inches tall, and then they don't have to worry about it. So by time it makes the corn/bean it's already shading out weed competition.
All food isn't sprayed with Gly either, I'm not sure why people believe that. Usually field corn and soy are sprayed, but nothing else is sprayed, it's not resistant gly is not selective, it will kill everything not immune. People don't consume much field corn, the consume corn syrup, but not so much corn.
I always hope that people are open to learning new things, too many people get led down the road of "this is bad because I said so" aka Jenny Mccarthy's anti-vaccine following. Refrences a false document to prove a point and millions of people follow suit.
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Old 04-15-2019, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Capt Grady 23 Gulfstream View Post
You are making some really sick comments now.

ANY farmer who would grow two tomatoes the same and put different prices on them simply because he CAN is very sick.

That does not make me the dummy as much as it makes you or any farmer a crook and you know that is true.
Interesting thread. I must be seriously diseased by the above logic. I sell the same product to hundreds of customers. Some pay pennies per item, some pay dollars per item. I have customers who literally up to 100x more (or less) than other customers - it just depends on what problem it's solving for each customer, the value associated with solving that problem, and sometimes (not always) how many they are buying. That's the real world. If Mr. Farmer has prepared his food in such a way that it still meets the full requirements of two different customers, each with different requirements, then he is darn sure entitled to sell it to each of them at the price commensurate with the value the item is providing each customer. In fact I'd say running a good business depends on doing so and winds up benefiting all of the customers. That's all I have to say about that.

I do like European state-paid healthcare plans. I am seriously concerned at how much I'm going to have to pay for my healthcare in retirement.

Lastly, I haven't had sushi since reading this thread but I suspect next time I'm ready for some, I will just partake and take my chances. I do love raw tuna.
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Old 04-15-2019, 10:18 PM
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Bloviate. If you dont know what it means, look it up and re-read this thread.
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Old 04-16-2019, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by REMfish7 View Post
Bloviate. If you dont know what it means, look it up and re-read this thread the internet.
FTFY. I was going to say "THT" but went straight to the right answer.
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Old 04-16-2019, 12:00 PM
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Yep, Its perfectly safe everyone. Move along now. Nothing to see here.
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Old 04-16-2019, 05:28 PM
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There are a few of these articles that have lots of "may cause" in them, there are also some here that are being investigated, because they use levels that are high as their test subjects. People also focus in on glyphosate, but until you have looked at some of the other chemicals used I don't think this one is so bad. We try to stay away from some of the bad ones, but some of them are toxic, some are pollutants, and some are carcinogenic. Hardly anyone I know uses those though, but they are available. I agree more research has to be done, but we shouldn't jump ship, and go along with "clean" and "green" organic, when it's neither one of those. They also use things that can cause cancer. It's all in the dosing, but to an average person it all sounds legit. Also, lets not forget the things lurking in your cellphone, deodorant, clothing, and household cleaners. We are (mostly) fishermen and women on this page, I'm guessing we get exposed to a decent amount of lead on a fishing trip, so let's not turn a blind eye to what we expose ourselves to.
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Old 04-16-2019, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mattbowen61990 View Post
There are a few of these articles that have lots of "may cause" in them, there are also some here that are being investigated, because they use levels that are high as their test subjects. People also focus in on glyphosate, but until you have looked at some of the other chemicals used I don't think this one is so bad. We try to stay away from some of the bad ones, but some of them are toxic, some are pollutants, and some are carcinogenic. Hardly anyone I know uses those though, but they are available. I agree more research has to be done, but we shouldn't jump ship, and go along with "clean" and "green" organic, when it's neither one of those. They also use things that can cause cancer. It's all in the dosing, but to an average person it all sounds legit. Also, lets not forget the things lurking in your cellphone, deodorant, clothing, and household cleaners. We are (mostly) fishermen and women on this page, I'm guessing we get exposed to a decent amount of lead on a fishing trip, so let's not turn a blind eye to what we expose ourselves to.
I just think it's ignorant to think we have this wonder chemical that we can spray all.over a ton of the food we eat and it will have no negative side effects on us. If it's to good to be true it probably is. That is true for almost everything in life. Including some organic farming practices. Though I also know that a lot of negative news on organic farming comes from the commercial side of the industry. Take a glance at Ag Daily, it's laughable how much the openly try to bash organic farming practices. Yes there are worse out there but none are used in the amount and extent of glyphosphate. Deflecting blame by pointing out other issues is just that, deflection.
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ECU_Pirate View Post
I just think it's ignorant to think we have this wonder chemical that we can spray all.over a ton of the food we eat and it will have no negative side effects on us. If it's to good to be true it probably is. That is true for almost everything in life. Including some organic farming practices. Though I also know that a lot of negative news on organic farming comes from the commercial side of the industry. Take a glance at Ag Daily, it's laughable how much the openly try to bash organic farming practices. Yes there are worse out there but none are used in the amount and extent of glyphosphate. Deflecting blame by pointing out other issues is just that, deflection.

You could just grow your own... When do you think fields are sprayed with glyphosate? What all do you think glyphosate is sprayed onto? How much of that do you think people actually consume? Nobody really ever says it has "no negative effect on us". You agreed above, almost anything will have an effect on you, eat too much of anything and your body hates you. You do it habitually and it will end up having lasting negative effects, You eat enough of the pesticides used in organic farming, same principal. It's all in what you think is the lesser evil, People are incapable of raising their own food now, so it's not the commercial side of organic farming, it's people's own faults. Like I said, where I come from there is no "organic" market, there are just farmers that you know grow the best things. In RTP it's "organic" mecca, you can take chicken and throw a "gluten free" label on it, and someone will pay you $1 more per pound.

Last edited by mattbowen61990; 04-16-2019 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 04-17-2019, 07:45 AM
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Some effects are indirect, although not by much. Walk in AgSupply in Garner, and you are immediately confronted with rows of shelves, and pallets, loaded with large containers of high concentrate glyphosate, and other herbicides, and Bifen and other insecticides. Then go take a look where ever you see some spring clover in bloom, and try to find a honey bee.
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Old 04-17-2019, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by mattbowen61990 View Post
You could just grow your own... When do you think fields are sprayed with glyphosate? What all do you think glyphosate is sprayed onto? How much of that do you think people actually consume? Nobody really ever says it has "no negative effect on us". You agreed above, almost anything will have an effect on you, eat too much of anything and your body hates you. You do it habitually and it will end up having lasting negative effects, You eat enough of the pesticides used in organic farming, same principal. It's all in what you think is the lesser evil, People are incapable of raising their own food now, so it's not the commercial side of organic farming, it's people's own faults. Like I said, where I come from there is no "organic" market, there are just farmers that you know grow the best things. In RTP it's "organic" mecca, you can take chicken and throw a "gluten free" label on it, and someone will pay you $1 more per pound.
Some fields are sprayed right before harvest to dry out the crop. So yeah... That's not good. I'm not here to defend organic farming. I just thing spraying glyphosphate on a lot of stuff is not a good idea. A lot of studies done by experts back up this assumption. I think we should figure out better ways of doing things instead of taking the company that makes billions off of it's word that's it's fine.
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Old 04-18-2019, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by CWT View Post
Do you know why an organic nitrogen source is better than a man-made nitrogen source for plants? It is isn't it? Wrong again. Plants can only use two forms of nitrogen. NO3 and NH4.
Sorry, but there is some evidence that some plants can pretty effectively take up nitrogen in the form of urea, as well. Urea is preferentially taken up by the foliar route, while the nitrate and ammoniacal forms are preferentially taken up by roots. Urea in the soil will be broken down by microorganisms into ammoniacal nitrogen.
Originally Posted by CWT View Post
Those are organic right? Wrong again. Do you understand the nitrogen cycle or maybe you have never even heard of it. Do you even know that our earths atmosphere is made up of mostly..... Nitrogen? I wonder where our "man made" comes from? Why is it worse than nitrogen that degrades, through the nitrogen cycle, from cow sh*t.
There's "organic", meaning a carbon-containing compounds, and there's "organic", meaning grown without the use of synthetically-produced chemicals. Urea passes the first definition but fails the second.
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Old 04-18-2019, 05:43 AM
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Haha really. Growers have been using urea in production agriculture for many. many, many, years.
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