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Deck injection experiments/observations(Rot)

Old 07-29-2017, 11:04 AM
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Default Deck injection experiments/observations(Rot)

First off i'm not an expert by any means just a guy who's owned many cheap boats and knows his way around moderate fiberglass work.

So you have a soft spot lets say 2'x2'.. You could inject epoxy but you have to drill and dry out the core first(difficult to get right and IMO more work than cutting it out). The epoxy wont expand but will flow. In my experience trying this method you're left with a void with a tiny amount of flex vs with the expanding gorilla glue.

Try gorilla glue.
It reacts positively and flows into moisture(performs better when the surface is wet).
Easily available.
Dries hard as a rock.
Will not absorb moisture.

Supplies
Gorilla glue
drill/bit
something to cork the hole(I used bolts threaded in) This stuff expands strongly and IMO you need to plug it vs just putting weight on it.

Drill holes 3" apart around the area.
Inject a moderate amount of water into the holes(yes I said it).
Inject the glue and immediately cap off the hole you injected and wait for it to expand to the next hole. Inject a small amount into that hole(not rocket science here you get it).

The last hole will start weeping out water(mine actually squirted 3' into the air) and then the glue starts to flow. Cap everything off and wait overnight before walking on it.

It will be hard as a rock.


Some Cons
If you plan to recore the deck later on you've just made the job much harder. The glue will stick like a MOFO and you'll have to grind it out to replace the wood/composite. May not mean much to you now but you'll hate yourself for doing it.

If your fiberglass is very thin it's possible for the gorilla glue to create a bulge.. It's unlikely but needs saying.

The glue is nasty to handle. Wear gloves and don't get it on you.. It's harder to remove than Resin(at least it doesn't burn). This stuff will bond to anything.

I wouldn't attempt to do a large area with it. While cheap compared to resin a large bottle is about $30 and you'd need alot.. Better to just cut the skin, recore with wood, and call it a day.

If the area is really bad odds are the inside is soup. This makes it very easy to keep the top core. Something to think about since at that point you can do it right and probably faster/stronger.

Basically if you're sold on injecting your deck with epoxy I think you'll have better results with the gorilla glue but it's still a shortcut. I've done 3-4 repairs over the years with Epoxy and an equal amount with gorilla glue. The glue always outperforms the Epoxy.


Some tips.
A little goes a long way and it expands at least 3x.
If you spill some don't let it dry.. It wont come off without grinding it off once it's cured.
Dont use the bottle to inject.. Vet sections of big box stores or petsmart have syringes without the needle. Get 3x what you think you'll need.
If you get it on your hands coat them with vaseline and put a glove over it for 10 minutes.. It still doesn't come off easy.
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Old 07-29-2017, 11:17 AM
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Dumping some more info.

Durhams rock hard putty mixed with Resin makes a strong as hell peanut butter. A huge can of the powder is $10 and goes a long way. Don't even think about using it as designed(with water) it dries rigid and will absorb water. You can use it like silica/west system filler. Resin is strong but brittle. The putty this makes is truly awesome when compared to the silica.

You can use bondo filler in a boat only if you immediately put resin over the top of it. It will absorb water but doesn't hold on to it. If it gets wet for some reason you better wait until it dries before applying resin. You can also make a good peanut butter filler by mixing it with resin(you can use MEK). Cheap, available at walmart, and nothing sands as nice.
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Old 07-29-2017, 02:10 PM
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I have used gorilla glue successfully on several repairs...in my pursuit i repaired several sections of floor over 2' x 2' with exceptional; results....I also filled a void in the far starboard transom area where the hydraulic steering reservoir attached...

all of the repairs were solid and had no flex whatsoever...the glue reacts with the moisture and takes it over...if you leave an escape it will push excess moisture out...it does not overexpand inside panels and leaves no bowing...

in one portion of the floor near the helm and in front of the cabin door I removed tak trim in the cabin, drilled horizontally into the floor and injected from the cabin area...the floor was solid as a rock and you would never have known a repair was performed...

acetone will remove it before it cures...
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Old 07-29-2017, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
I have used gorilla glue successfully on several repairs...in my pursuit i repaired several sections of floor over 2' x 2' with exceptional; results....I also filled a void in the far starboard transom area where the hydraulic steering reservoir attached...

all of the repairs were solid and had no flex whatsoever...the glue reacts with the moisture and takes it over...if you leave an escape it will push excess moisture out...it does not overexpand inside panels and leaves no bowing...

in one portion of the floor near the helm and in front of the cabin door I removed tak trim in the cabin, drilled horizontally into the floor and injected from the cabin area...the floor was solid as a rock and you would never have known a repair was performed...

acetone will remove it before it cures...

Wish it would work on the project i'm currently working on.

Works great on the side decks on my trawler.



Don't have pics of the gorilla glue repairs but they came out similar to yours.. Also very solid.
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Old 07-29-2017, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by MrWesson View Post
Wish it would work on the project i'm currently working on.

Works great on the side decks on my trawler.

Don't have pics of the gorilla glue repairs but they came out similar to yours.. Also very solid.
If that's where you're at right now go get yourself a long barrel pneumatic hammer and a wide bent chisel, you'll save yourself a ton of time.
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Old 07-31-2017, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by commuter boats View Post
If that's where you're at right now go get yourself a long barrel pneumatic hammer and a wide bent chisel, you'll save yourself a ton of time.
Gerald
That was a week ago i'm done and ready for paint.

The hammer and chisel fortunately and unfortunately was only used 2-3 times.. Wet soup in there.
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Old 08-01-2017, 07:19 PM
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doing something halfassed :


better make sure,you've made time to do it the right way later....
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Old 08-01-2017, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jawz View Post
doing something halfassed :


better make sure,you've made time to do it the right way later....
Mentioned that if you read through the post..

THT and driveby trolls
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Old 08-02-2017, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MrWesson View Post
Mentioned that if you read through the post..

THT and driveby trolls




there was NO mention of it !


doing this,or even attempting this is pretty stupid ! if a cored piece of fiberglass,like a hatch,has a rotted core - there's NOTHING in between the glass,do you understand that ?


adding a glue,to take up the space is pretty asinine ! the CORRECT way,would be to replace the coring - but,that's using common sense,something that's in short supply here


tell me something else ? bondo,putting resin over it - exactly what are you attempting to do ? you do realize bondo absorbs water,right ? you also realize polyester resin is porous,right ??


using the proper materials and techniques,this avoids wasting your time,making a mess,and then having to do it all over again - understand that concept ?


no "trolling" here boy,just pointing out the obvious....one thing you did well,that was not recommending seafoam to repair it - seems most you guys who do these halfassed attempts @ repairing anything,seafoam is the number one cure all...
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Old 08-02-2017, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by jawz View Post
there was NO mention of it !


doing this,or even attempting this is pretty stupid ! if a cored piece of fiberglass,like a hatch,has a rotted core - there's NOTHING in between the glass,do you understand that ?


adding a glue,to take up the space is pretty asinine ! the CORRECT way,would be to replace the coring - but,that's using common sense,something that's in short supply here


tell me something else ? bondo,putting resin over it - exactly what are you attempting to do ? you do realize bondo absorbs water,right ? you also realize polyester resin is porous,right ??


using the proper materials and techniques,this avoids wasting your time,making a mess,and then having to do it all over again - understand that concept ?


no "trolling" here boy,just pointing out the obvious....one thing you did well,that was not recommending seafoam to repair it - seems most you guys who do these halfassed attempts @ repairing anything,seafoam is the number one cure all...
the gorilla glue turns into a rigid foam that cores the panel...I filled panels that were noticeably soft and springy when stepped on...when they were done they were hard as a rock...I stood a 27 series battery on edge on a cured piece of gorilla glue foam with no deflection whatsoever...I also soaked one inn water for several weeks to see if it would be effected by moisture...not at all...the repaired panels could be jumped on all day with no deflection...the backs were sanded and sealed with topside paint resulting in panels that look like new...

now...with no experience, like so many other tht experts, why don't you explain why that happened and what will go wrong with it...

and feel free to point out the obvious....other than what we already know...youre a troll..
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Old 08-05-2017, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by MrWesson View Post
First off i'm not an expert by any means just a guy who's owned many cheap boats and knows his way around moderate fiberglass work.

So you have a soft spot lets say 2'x2'.. You could inject epoxy but you have to drill and dry out the core first(difficult to get right and IMO more work than cutting it out). The epoxy wont expand but will flow. In my experience trying this method you're left with a void with a tiny amount of flex vs with the expanding gorilla glue.

Try gorilla glue.
It reacts positively and flows into moisture(performs better when the surface is wet).
Easily available.
Dries hard as a rock.
Will not absorb moisture.

Supplies
Gorilla glue
drill/bit
something to cork the hole(I used bolts threaded in) This stuff expands strongly and IMO you need to plug it vs just putting weight on it.

Drill holes 3" apart around the area.
Inject a moderate amount of water into the holes(yes I said it).
Inject the glue and immediately cap off the hole you injected and wait for it to expand to the next hole. Inject a small amount into that hole(not rocket science here you get it).

The last hole will start weeping out water(mine actually squirted 3' into the air) and then the glue starts to flow. Cap everything off and wait overnight before walking on it.

It will be hard as a rock.


Some Cons
If you plan to recore the deck later on you've just made the job much harder. The glue will stick like a MOFO and you'll have to grind it out to replace the wood/composite. May not mean much to you now but you'll hate yourself for doing it.

If your fiberglass is very thin it's possible for the gorilla glue to create a bulge.. It's unlikely but needs saying.

The glue is nasty to handle. Wear gloves and don't get it on you.. It's harder to remove than Resin(at least it doesn't burn). This stuff will bond to anything.

I wouldn't attempt to do a large area with it. While cheap compared to resin a large bottle is about $30 and you'd need alot.. Better to just cut the skin, recore with wood, and call it a day.

If the area is really bad odds are the inside is soup. This makes it very easy to keep the top core. Something to think about since at that point you can do it right and probably faster/stronger.


Basically if you're sold on injecting your deck with epoxy I think you'll have better results with the gorilla glue but it's still a shortcut. I've done 3-4 repairs over the years with Epoxy and an equal amount with gorilla glue. The glue always outperforms the Epoxy.



Some tips.
A little goes a long way and it expands at least 3x.
If you spill some don't let it dry.. It wont come off without grinding it off once it's cured.
Dont use the bottle to inject.. Vet sections of big box stores or petsmart have syringes without the needle. Get 3x what you think you'll need.
If you get it on your hands coat them with vaseline and put a glove over it for 10 minutes.. It still doesn't come off easy.
Originally Posted by jawz View Post
there was NO mention of it !


doing this,or even attempting this is pretty stupid ! if a cored piece of fiberglass,like a hatch,has a rotted core - there's NOTHING in between the glass,do you understand that ?


adding a glue,to take up the space is pretty asinine ! the CORRECT way,would be to replace the coring - but,that's using common sense,something that's in short supply here


tell me something else ? bondo,putting resin over it - exactly what are you attempting to do ? you do realize bondo absorbs water,right ? you also realize polyester resin is porous,right ??


using the proper materials and techniques,this avoids wasting your time,making a mess,and then having to do it all over again - understand that concept ?


no "trolling" here boy,just pointing out the obvious....one thing you did well,that was not recommending seafoam to repair it - seems most you guys who do these halfassed attempts @ repairing anything,seafoam is the number one cure all...

Reading comprehension doesn't seem to be your forte? just a guess based on your lack of punctuation and run on nonsense.

I said bondo will absorb water and to coat it with resin.

Poly resin porous? So you're saying that the resin isn't waterproof.. Hrmm

I know the core is freaking hollow that's why you might want to inject to glue to fill the void.

Once the glue dries and argument could be made that it's better than plywood.. Ya know since using wood as a coring was part of the problem to begin with.
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Old 08-05-2017, 11:52 AM
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Great tip on the GG. I'm going to try it on a soft hatch. Thanks!!
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Old 08-05-2017, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by MrWesson View Post
Reading comprehension doesn't seem to be your forte? just a guess based on your lack of punctuation and run on nonsense.

I said bondo will absorb water and to coat it with resin.

Poly resin porous? So you're saying that the resin isn't waterproof.. Hrmm

I know the core is freaking hollow that's why you might want to inject to glue to fill the void.

Once the glue dries and argument could be made that it's better than plywood.. Ya know since using wood as a coring was part of the problem to begin with.
Polyester resin is NOT WATERPROOF! Ever wonder why transoms rot, stringers rot, 10s of thousands of boats have had hull blisters? It's because water will penetrate polyester resin and pretty quickly. That's why you use a barrier coat on boats that live in the water permanently. Epoxy resin is almost 100% waterproof but still passes miniscule amounts of water vapor in testing. Vinylester resin is between poly and epoxy in water absorption. Many of you will say the rot is caused by not coating the wood with polyester resin; BS! Ever try to lay fiberglass on wood without coating it with resin? Most boat manufacturers lay down the resin with a chopper gun; do you think they mask off the wood parts so they don't get covered with resin? Wake up, do some reading and try to learn a little.
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Old 08-05-2017, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by fish_stix View Post
Polyester resin is NOT WATERPROOF! Ever wonder why transoms rot, stringers rot, 10s of thousands of boats have had hull blisters? It's because water will penetrate polyester resin and pretty quickly. That's why you use a barrier coat on boats that live in the water permanently. Epoxy resin is almost 100% waterproof but still passes miniscule amounts of water vapor in testing. Vinylester resin is between poly and epoxy in water absorption. Many of you will say the rot is caused by not coating the wood with polyester resin; BS! Ever try to lay fiberglass on wood without coating it with resin? Most boat manufacturers lay down the resin with a chopper gun; do you think they mask off the wood parts so they don't get covered with resin? Wake up, do some reading and try to learn a little.
I could show you so many examples of wood and polyester getting along just fine after 40 years, screw holes and poor quality workmanship is the biggest problem with stringers and transoms,and a big part of the blister problem is about the quality of the polyester resin not the fact that it's a polyester but I needn't engage in an argument with you so have a good day and I disagree with you.
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Old 08-05-2017, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by commuter boats View Post
I could show you so many examples of wood and polyester getting along just fine after 40 years, screw holes and poor quality workmanship is the biggest problem with stringers and transoms,and a big part of the blister problem is about the quality of the polyester resin not the fact that it's a polyester but I needn't engage in an argument with you so have a good day and I disagree with you.
Gerald
water is the universal solvent.....is it not?


We just wont live long enough to see it.
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Old 08-06-2017, 07:07 AM
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I don't know why some people can't express their opinions without venom. If you have info you wish to share, you can do it without calling people stupid (see Commuter's response for an example of how to convey a contrary opinion in a polite manner).

As for using Gorilla Glue as a repair, I can see it for the smaller repairs or in areas that aren't subjected to a lot of loading. Gorilla Glue is a moisture cure foaming urethane. Urethane foams are sticky as hell but not particularly strong. Shear forces can easily cause the foam to fail. I think it's a great idea to fix a small area but, as the OP suggested, I wouldn't recommend it in a large area. I'd also be wary of using it in an area that gets a lot of stress like the mounting area for a seat pedestal. When expanded, Gorilla Glue is only about 2-4 lb density and could be crushed by point loading.
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by OReely View Post
I don't know why some people can't express their opinions without venom. If you have info you wish to share, you can do it without calling people stupid (see Commuter's response for an example of how to convey a contrary opinion in a polite manner).

As for using Gorilla Glue as a repair, I can see it for the smaller repairs or in areas that aren't subjected to a lot of loading. Gorilla Glue is a moisture cure foaming urethane. Urethane foams are sticky as hell but not particularly strong. Shear forces can easily cause the foam to fail. I think it's a great idea to fix a small area but, as the OP suggested, I wouldn't recommend it in a large area. I'd also be wary of using it in an area that gets a lot of stress like the mounting area for a seat pedestal. When expanded, Gorilla Glue is only about 2-4 lb density and could be crushed by point loading.
I am not sure where the "sticky as hell" description comes from...the foam dries hard and tackles and can be handled without any residue transfer at all...it will also fill a relatively large sandwiched area with little effort and great success...

I would never use it in an anchoring panel without some sort of backup...but as a panel filler it is very strong and rigid...I keep a block of it on my desk at school to show students how strong it is...I can stand on a 2" diameter puck I made with just the left over glue in the bottom of a container mixed with some water...

it is an excellent filler for a panel that has a deteriorated core...
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Old 08-06-2017, 09:24 AM
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Sticky - as in when it is first applied - not after cure.
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Old 08-06-2017, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by fish_stix View Post
Polyester resin is NOT WATERPROOF! Ever wonder why transoms rot, stringers rot, 10s of thousands of boats have had hull blisters? It's because water will penetrate polyester resin and pretty quickly. That's why you use a barrier coat on boats that live in the water permanently. Epoxy resin is almost 100% waterproof but still passes miniscule amounts of water vapor in testing. Vinylester resin is between poly and epoxy in water absorption. Many of you will say the rot is caused by not coating the wood with polyester resin; BS! Ever try to lay fiberglass on wood without coating it with resin? Most boat manufacturers lay down the resin with a chopper gun; do you think they mask off the wood parts so they don't get covered with resin? Wake up, do some reading and try to learn a little.
Most transoms i've seen fail and most decks are from water intrusion through screw holes. Not saying it's impossible but unlikely based on what ive seen.

Originally Posted by commuter boats View Post
I could show you so many examples of wood and polyester getting along just fine after 40 years, screw holes and poor quality workmanship is the biggest problem with stringers and transoms,and a big part of the blister problem is about the quality of the polyester resin not the fact that it's a polyester but I needn't engage in an argument with you so have a good day and I disagree with you.
Gerald
X2

Originally Posted by OReely View Post
I don't know why some people can't express their opinions without venom. If you have info you wish to share, you can do it without calling people stupid (see Commuter's response for an example of how to convey a contrary opinion in a polite manner).

As for using Gorilla Glue as a repair, I can see it for the smaller repairs or in areas that aren't subjected to a lot of loading. Gorilla Glue is a moisture cure foaming urethane. Urethane foams are sticky as hell but not particularly strong. Shear forces can easily cause the foam to fail. I think it's a great idea to fix a small area but, as the OP suggested, I wouldn't recommend it in a large area. I'd also be wary of using it in an area that gets a lot of stress like the mounting area for a seat pedestal. When expanded, Gorilla Glue is only about 2-4 lb density and could be crushed by point loading.
If you read back to the "drive by" generalization type post its very annoying.

"Do it right!" "It will fail"

Saying those things is what a forum is about but saying them without anything to back up the statement is just trolling.

I've used it with great lasting results, it's a quick fix, I wouldn't use it on large areas(not because it's not strong), and I think it performs better than epoxy used the same way(which is a common way to fix this sort of thing.

If I came here saying. Dont waste your time with fiberglass work or here's the perfect quick fix for all your rot problems then I get it. BUT I feel my description about how, why and the dangers of using this stuff is pretty clear if someone takes the time to read before they post.

Originally Posted by OReely View Post
Sticky - as in when it is first applied - not after cure.
Isn't that what you want? I mean it creates a great bond and holds it for years to everything including things that are water logged.

Is it perfect to use how I posted? Hell no. Perfect or near perfect would be replacing the core with a composite and laying it back up but lets be real for a second in that very few people love their boats that much.
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Old 08-06-2017, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by MrWesson View Post
Reading comprehension doesn't seem to be your forte? just a guess based on your lack of punctuation and run on nonsense.

I said bondo will absorb water and to coat it with resin.

Poly resin porous? So you're saying that the resin isn't waterproof.. Hrmm

I know the core is freaking hollow that's why you might want to inject to glue to fill the void.

Once the glue dries and argument could be made that it's better than plywood.. Ya know since using wood as a coring was part of the problem to begin with.


i'm excellent at reading comprehension - much better @ repairs


you're proving your experience/knowledge level,polyester resin is far from being waterproof - I've stated that before.clearly,you're unaware of that important fact.having knowledge/skills,is clearly important,it's referred to as "knowing your materials and how to use them properly",i suggest you learn a lot more,before typing - it will avoid you stating incorrect information


using "bondo" also proves your skill level.


your attempt at "repairing" a rotted core,it reminds me of a print ad Honda had,years ago.the ad was a picture of a chair,one leg was broken and a stick was tied to it,caption said"sure it's fixed,would you sit in it" ?


only one way to repair an area where the core is compromised - drilling holes and filling it with ANY product,is FAR from a repair.
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