Notices

Decision time - Resin

Old 02-05-2020, 07:30 AM
  #1  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,489
Likes: 0
Received 1,621 Likes on 818 Posts
Default Decision time - Resin

I believe I have reached the point of analysis paralysis. I am ready to order materials to skin the Coosa transom from the inside, raise the stringers a couple of inches, replace the deck with Carbon Core, build a bracket with Coosa as the core, make new bulkheads/console, repair cut-outs in the hull and fill in the cap in places for my Seafari. The glass will be 1708. The question then is what resin?

As I understand it from plenty of online research and no actual experience, polyester resin is the standard boat builders use because it is strong and stiff and cheap. It, however, lacks bonding strength for new parts to old parts compared to epoxy resin. Epoxy resin, on the other hand, is very strong, more flexible/less brittle, bonds well to existing parts and is most expensive. Vinylester resin is a sort of compromise between poly and epoxy, but more similar to poly and priced between the two.

For its bonding strength, I am strongly leaning towards using epoxy for the transom, stringer, deck, etc. work I need to do. The bracket could be done with poly since it will be a separate part, but any reason not to just use epoxy since I will be using epoxy for everything else? Same for the deck since bonding to the hull isn't as critical strength-wise compared to the transom and stringers?

Or am I overthinking bonding strength? Will poly provide plenty of strength for the inside skin of the transom to the hull, raised stringer section to existing stringers, bulkheads to hull and deck to hull? If epoxy will be a noticeably superior product for these applications I will use it, but if it makes little to no difference I will use poly.

Then the follow up question, if epoxy really should be used is, what brand? Some are way more expensive than others and I figure I am going to need 30 gallons. It makes a difference if I use Raka at $47 per gallon or U.S. Composites house brand at $40 compared to Total Boat at $100 or West Systems that I won't even comment on. Any recommendations or alternatives I am not aware of?

Hopefully, temperatures will be improving soon and I want to be ready with the materials now that I have my boat shed in place. Thanks all.
Old 02-05-2020, 08:06 AM
  #2  
HTJ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Baytown, TX
Posts: 12,118
Received 3,590 Likes on 2,218 Posts
Default

Poly works great as a layup medium, not so much as a glue....that said many boat repairs/mods are carried out with poly that really should be done with epoxy and the boat/owner lift happily ever after. In your particular case you are substantially vested with the carbon and coosa...let it be all it can be with the right resin

US Composites slow is the gold standard, I wouldn't look beyond this were I you.
Old 02-05-2020, 08:14 AM
  #3  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: plimoth ma
Posts: 309
Received 75 Likes on 42 Posts
Default

I used total boat when I did the transom work on our boat last year. Was half the price of west system and simple to mix with one to one pumps with preset ratios.
Old 02-05-2020, 10:46 AM
  #4  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 419
Received 107 Likes on 71 Posts
Default

Keep in mind that anything done with epoxy should be painted not gel coated
Old 02-05-2020, 11:34 AM
  #5  
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes on 10 Posts
Default Epoxy for repairs

Total boat has worked as well for me as West, West/Gougeon/Epoxyworks (all the same company) however has the best instructions. MANDATORY BEFORE BGINING REPAIRS. I started some years ago using TB slow to allow more time for error repair. Trialed West fast and TB fast, saw no difference. Stayed with TB due to size of repairs vs $. 20 year duration on my crushed hull wave runner and 5 on my 21 foot dual console transom, engine well and deck. Runner was painted with krylon fusion believe it or not, still intact, boat with wet edge.
Old 02-05-2020, 02:02 PM
  #6  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Pensacola, FL
Posts: 5,497
Received 367 Likes on 241 Posts
Default

I have the same basic understanding of resin that you do. Build with new with poly and patch / fix with epoxy. I built a coffin box with vinyl ester and it came out OK.

I used US Composites and was happy with their products.

Am I reading this right? You are planning to build a bracket and a console with no actual experience? I would re-evaluate that after knocking out some of the other projects like the deck / repairs. I have a little experience and that was enough to know that I would buy a premade console and bracket and NOT try and fab something myself.
Old 02-05-2020, 03:12 PM
  #7  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 999
Received 197 Likes on 111 Posts
Default

I like the work times of epoxy for the weekend warrior. When I did my Mako it was all in the 3:1 Epoxy from FGCI. I would have had a lot more waste with poly/vinyl doing all the work by myself down here in Fl.
Old 02-05-2020, 03:26 PM
  #8  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,191
Likes: 0
Received 573 Likes on 366 Posts
Default

Epoxy all the way. Stronger and also it is waterproof. Gelcoat will stick to it. Lots of tests showing that.
I like no blush epoxy as you don't have to wash the blush off to apply the next coat.
Progressive epoxy.com is where I buy mine. I would check with some of the builders on here if you are buying 30 gallons.
Old 02-05-2020, 03:56 PM
  #9  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,489
Likes: 0
Received 1,621 Likes on 818 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by jgren View Post
I used total boat when I did the transom work on our boat last year. Was half the price of west system and simple to mix with one to one pumps with preset ratios.
I will give Jamestown Distributors a call tomorrow to see if they discount for 30 gallons. Driving to RI to pick it up would be much easier than trying to ship 300 pounds of resin/hardener.

Originally Posted by Fishingwell View Post
Keep in mind that anything done with epoxy should be painted not gel coated
I have heard this before, but I believe some of the newer epoxies and gelcoats do work together. I will certainly test before doing a large area.

Originally Posted by HTJ View Post
Poly works great as a layup medium, not so much as a glue....that said many boat repairs/mods are carried out with poly that really should be done with epoxy and the boat/owner lift happily ever after. In your particular case you are substantially vested with the carbon and coosa...let it be all it can be with the right resin

US Composites slow is the gold standard, I wouldn't look beyond this were I you.
U.S. Composites will be getting a call as well to what it would cost to ship to MA.

Originally Posted by Lamer View Post
Total boat has worked as well for me as West, West/Gougeon/Epoxyworks (all the same company) however has the best instructions. MANDATORY BEFORE BGINING REPAIRS. I started some years ago using TB slow to allow more time for error repair. Trialed West fast and TB fast, saw no difference. Stayed with TB due to size of repairs vs $. 20 year duration on my crushed hull wave runner and 5 on my 21 foot dual console transom, engine well and deck. Runner was painted with krylon fusion believe it or not, still intact, boat with wet edge.
Thaks for another vote for Total Boat. I have been enjoying Boatworks Today Youtube videos and he seems to like the TB stuff.

Originally Posted by DreamWeaver21 View Post
I have the same basic understanding of resin that you do. Build with new with poly and patch / fix with epoxy. I built a coffin box with vinyl ester and it came out OK.

I used US Composites and was happy with their products.

Am I reading this right? You are planning to build a bracket and a console with no actual experience? I would re-evaluate that after knocking out some of the other projects like the deck / repairs. I have a little experience and that was enough to know that I would buy a premade console and bracket and NOT try and fab something myself.
Another vote for US Composites I see. I am of the idea anything is worth trying. Worst thing is it fails and you go on to plan B. Plan B is buying an aluminum bracket, but I am going to give making one out of Coosa and glass first. I enjoy biting off more than I can chew and seeing if I can get through it.

Originally Posted by blindmullet View Post
I like the work times of epoxy for the weekend warrior. When I did my Mako it was all in the 3:1 Epoxy from FGCI. I would have had a lot more waste with poly/vinyl doing all the work by myself down here in Fl.
Not familiar with FGCI, but will check them out. I make my own rods so having some experience with epoxy should help.

Originally Posted by muskrattown View Post
Epoxy all the way. Stronger and also it is waterproof. Gelcoat will stick to it. Lots of tests showing that.
I like no blush epoxy as you don't have to wash the blush off to apply the next coat.
Progressive epoxy.com is where I buy mine. I would check with some of the builders on here if you are buying 30 gallons.
Lots of good points to reinforce my beliefs about epoxy. Plus I will not have to deal with measuring MEKP. I tried going through Progressive's website. Man that looks like a 12 year old did it in 2002. I think I found a price of $2,400 for 30 gallons. That is a hard no if so, but I will give them a call tomorrow as well. Going to NH would be easy too.

Lots of good info, gentlemen. Thank you.
Old 02-05-2020, 04:38 PM
  #10  
HTJ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Baytown, TX
Posts: 12,118
Received 3,590 Likes on 2,218 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Locke N Load View Post
I think I found a price of $2,400 for 30 gallons.
$1170 for 30 gallons

Epoxy : Epoxy Resins and Hardeners

Something not mentioned is working time - advantage epoxy and not by a small margin either.
Old 02-05-2020, 04:47 PM
  #11  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,703
Received 442 Likes on 296 Posts
Default

I like working with epoxy and knowing I’ll get the best bond on my structural items on the hull. I used vinylester to build my leaning post, other parts and to laminate the deck that was then tabbed in with epoxy. Check out Raka epoxy. It’s my go to now, before that it was Ebond 1285.
Old 02-05-2020, 08:40 PM
  #12  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 8,851
Received 1,277 Likes on 763 Posts
Default

Raka or US composites here. I've never built anything with esters, so not much to compare to. My understandings the same as yours, esters for new epoxy for re work. All my "new" stuff I used leftovers for though.
Likes:
Old 02-06-2020, 06:21 AM
  #13  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 958
Received 358 Likes on 205 Posts
Default

I second, probably third or fourth, for Raka. It’s less expensive, thin so it sets out well, doesn’t blush and offers a range of cure time for hardners. The 2-1 mix makes measuring easy too.

I would definitely wait to make the call on building a bracket, possibly the console too, until you complete your transom and stringer work, after months, possibly more, doing that work, 3K for a bracket that is ready to go may not seem as high as it does now. Many of these build threads taper off and die. Sometimes because life intrudes and sometimes because the builder took on too much. I remember reading two build threads where the thread just died after the poster started a building bracket. It could be that these builder finished up, and are out enjoying their finished boats, but that’s not a bet I would take.

Im not trying to be at all discouraging. I look forward to following your build thread, but I can say that these projects always take more time and money than planned. When I started my Aquasport rebuild, I estimated that it would take a year. Splash was three years later. Trading money for time is a good deal if it gets you out on your boat sooner.
Old 02-06-2020, 06:43 AM
  #14  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 419
Received 107 Likes on 71 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by mshugg View Post
.

Im not trying to be at all discouraging. I look forward to following your build thread, but I can say that these projects always take more time and money than planned. When I started my Aquasport rebuild, I estimated that it would take a year. Splash was three years later. Trading money for time is a good deal if it gets you out on your boat sooner.
Good advice there, we all think we understand it but when it gets going what was supposed to be a fun project can become stressful because it can consume the two things you can’t have enough, time and money. That’s about where I am on a relatively simple rebuild that I’m bent on finishing by June.
Old 02-06-2020, 06:51 AM
  #15  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 2,045
Likes: 0
Received 315 Likes on 184 Posts
Default

Double the time and triple the money. On my project I did calculate every dollar I spent. Not because I was on a budget, but more so because I was curious.

You will spend a lot of money on stuff that never makes it into the boat. Paint brushes, mixing cups, paint trays, rollers, etc. Buy all that stuff from US Composites in bulk, because the quick trips to home depot or lowes add up. Usually $40-50 for a few things.

I like epoxy from Raka or US Composites. I have used both, but I mostly use Raka now because I find it to be a little thinner which makes wetting out glass quicker. I like poly for small repairs like patching old holes in the console. I can mix up a quick batch and have it dry in less than an hour and ready to be faired out. There are advantages to both. Epoxy is just easier because you can't mix it too hot. The ratio is the ratio and you just follow that. But longer cure times can happen depending on the hardener.

This forum is pretty obsessed with Epoxy, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with Poly when it is used right. I might go with poly for my next rebuild. Might even use wood too.
Old 02-06-2020, 07:32 AM
  #16  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,489
Likes: 0
Received 1,621 Likes on 818 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by 305seahunter View Post
Double the time and triple the money. On my project I did calculate every dollar I spent. Not because I was on a budget, but more so because I was curious.

You will spend a lot of money on stuff that never makes it into the boat. Paint brushes, mixing cups, paint trays, rollers, etc. Buy all that stuff from US Composites in bulk, because the quick trips to home depot or lowes add up. Usually $40-50 for a few things.

I like epoxy from Raka or US Composites. I have used both, but I mostly use Raka now because I find it to be a little thinner which makes wetting out glass quicker. I like poly for small repairs like patching old holes in the console. I can mix up a quick batch and have it dry in less than an hour and ready to be faired out. There are advantages to both. Epoxy is just easier because you can't mix it too hot. The ratio is the ratio and you just follow that. But longer cure times can happen depending on the hardener.

This forum is pretty obsessed with Epoxy, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with Poly when it is used right. I might go with poly for my next rebuild. Might even use wood too.
I was with you right up to the last sentence. What do folks think about using poly to build parts and then the bonding to existing parts with epoxy? Example would be the deck. Laminate the plastic honeycomb panels with poly outside the boat and then adhere it to the hull sides with a layer of cloth and epoxy and epoxy putty to the stringers. The bracket will be made in a female mold with gelcoat so that could be all poly. The transom would be all epoxy so each layer could grab the hull sides and bottom. Same with the stringer raising, epoxy for the bonding strength to the existing stringers. The cap would be epoxy for bonding to the existing cap. All holes in the hull will be done with epoxy. The only other part would be the bulkheads separating the cuddy cabin area and deck. Port side is just a panel so honeycomb and poly and then epoxy final layer to adhere could work. The starboard is side is where all the action is. Steering, controls, MFD, VHF, etc. I don't see any reason why the poly with epoxy final layer plan would not work as well. It will just be more work developing the core structure and shape and then glassing it.

The next thought process then is the glass type. 1708 is great for many applications, but would 17oz. straight biax be better for some applications? Less resin required, but can be harder to work with and form straight layers. Stronger layer to layer than 1708 when made to the same thickness. Say 5 layers of 1700 verse 3 layers of 1708. More glass and less resin in the layup. For the poly parts I could use straight CSM for corners and bends to make smoother transitions. Decisions, decisions.
Likes:
Old 02-06-2020, 07:49 AM
  #17  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Largo/Belleair
Posts: 1,098
Received 146 Likes on 93 Posts
Default

I am going epoxy throughout my whole build. One thing not mentioned is the very strong fumes with the poly and vinyl resins. RAKA.com epoxy has very little odor if anything at all.
Old 02-07-2020, 08:12 AM
  #18  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 711
Received 95 Likes on 65 Posts
Default

Raka hands down
Likes:
Old 02-07-2020, 09:17 AM
  #19  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 524
Received 83 Likes on 47 Posts
Default

I used Raka also and really liked it.
Old 02-07-2020, 02:23 PM
  #20  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,489
Likes: 0
Received 1,621 Likes on 818 Posts
Default

I have some samples coming from US Composites. 17oz. and 1708 cloth and some polyester and epoxy resin to play around with. Should help me decide based upon all the info I have received.

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.