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Why do we accept poor quality?

Old 03-17-2019, 07:58 AM
  #21  
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I fully understand the OPs post. We read a fair number of complaints on this forum. The complaints are not limited to price point boats either. All boats have moved well into the premium price category without any accompanying improvement in overall quality based on my observations. I can assure you if someone bought a new Contender or Regulator and had some cosmetic issues that the masses here would largely excuse it as understandable and acceptable. Remember the Sailfish Transom thread? A large number of posters excused that as no big deal.

The escalation in the cost of boats is far outstripping the increases in wages, parts and raw materials. Remember when oil was $120/ barrel and we used that as an excuse for the runaway cost of boats. We saw no slowing in the increase of the cost of bats when oil prices retreated.

We are doing this to ourselves. If we quit excusing substandard quality and stopped buying products that are increasing in price at twice the rate of inflation we'd see some meaningful changes. But we aren't and we won't.
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Old 03-17-2019, 08:04 AM
  #22  
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For the vast majority of builders, ISO would be virtually impossible to achieve or maintain without nearly doubling the cost of manufacture. The only ones who can afford it are the largest corporate conglomerate divisions who have a hugely top heavy office staff already. The few that do it now are mainly using it as a tool to sell into CE (Euro) countries who restrict imports using the ISO standards as an excuse to protect their markets.

Those few boat builders that do have ISO have not materially reduced their warranty rework either, that's the kool aid talking. Many still have horrible warranty rates, now they just have a lot more paperwork to document it. I've been through the ISO certification process with two fortune 500 companies as an engineering manager so I'm speaking from real world experience. The cost to produce went up significantly but the quality didnt.
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Old 03-17-2019, 08:05 AM
  #23  
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Is it is believed that boat manufacturer's are making a killing in the boat building business or are their profits fair and reasonable? Anyone care to take a guess?
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Old 03-17-2019, 08:11 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
The escalation in the cost of boats is far outstripping the increases in wages, parts and raw materials. Remember when oil was $120/ barrel and we used that as an excuse for the runaway cost of boats. We saw no slowing in the increase of the cost of bats when oil prices retreated.
Petro based materials definitely spiked, along with add on shipping surcharges. Some of the fuel surcharges have lowered but we're still seeing 10-20% raw material cost increases annually on those same resins, cores and fibers. They never went back down either!
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Old 03-17-2019, 08:23 AM
  #25  
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My Parker 1801 is almost four year old. I bought it new from Dare Marina, a local dealer I have known for decades. I don't know what problems it had when it arrived at the dealer, but when I took delivery it had ZERO problems. I have since worn out a live well pump, but that's been it except for routine maintenance.

I had to jump in since we've heard a lot about Parker QC lately. :>) I'm a marine surveyor and see a lot of boats. I choose the Parker for a reason, and I wasn't disappointed!
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Old 03-17-2019, 10:39 AM
  #26  
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Low Volume
Specialized equipment
Lack of alternatives
Limited Competition
Multiple companies on one platform



These are all factors in the marine industry. For example, If I was a dealership selling a new 18ft CC with a single 115hp outboard and the corner of the antiventilation plate broke off or the engine plastic engine cowing got a one inch crack in you are completely screwed as both of those cost thousands and there is no easy answer.
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Old 03-17-2019, 11:59 AM
  #27  
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World cat, key west and Parker are not known as world class boat builders so I will give you guys a pass as you must have gone in with lower expectations. I don't care about the lower production numbers, but I paid top dollar and don't think I should have to play with the boat and figure out the defects.
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Old 03-17-2019, 12:20 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Saltydawg15 View Post
World cat, key west and Parker are not known as world class boat builders .
Oh hell, you have gone and done it now............standby for incoming.


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Old 03-17-2019, 12:21 PM
  #29  
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Proper quality assurance and quality control is much more than a set of standards or documented processes. Itís a culture and mindset in an organisation that drives them to the very source of any potential defects in their products or processes, so they can stop the defect at its origin.

Thatís the concept that is so elusive to many companies, even ones that believe because they are ISO9000 compliant that they will magically start improving quality.

Itís so much more than a guy with a clipboard (or even worse - a new owner) poring over the finished product looking for mistakes. If youíre looking for defects at that point, the biggest problem is that youíve already incurred all the costs of manufacturing a defective product. What do you do when you find a mistake?

How is this relevant to boats? To a large extent, boatbuilding is still a backyard industry. Barriers to entry are low, itís very labour intensive, volume is low and relative to say, car manufacturing, there is a lot of customisation. All of those aspects donít lend themselves well to good quality control.

Now thatís not to say it canít be done. Iíd guess that the well known custom sportfish builders produce relatively defect free boats, but they are sort of brute forcing it with an open (owners) checkbook. Other smaller volume builders probably rely on one or two individuals to oversee quality, which becomes a problem when volume increases.

As already mentioned, I doubt that most consumers of boats are willing to pay the premium for good quality control. So itís not really a question of whether we accept poor quality, but more that we are OK with the quality we get for the price we are prepared to pay.
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Old 03-17-2019, 02:41 PM
  #30  
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I think another very large factor is the economy. Meaning, higher production demands, waiting lists, etc. that the Pres has brought about abruptly, so prep time to get ready was practically nil.

HUMAN behavior dictates take advantage while the iron is hot, so expected flaws in mfg comes with it.

That salesman response will become more and more prevalent in near future, especially with Yamaha IMO, large volume brings large defects, human nature.
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Old 03-17-2019, 05:44 PM
  #31  
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I'm a KW owner...I didn't pay 6 figures for my boat...I admittedly have never been on a Regulator...but understand that it's got to be something else because of the limitless praise that exists about them. I will say that approaching my third season; I've had zero issues with the boat. TTop pipe work is as heavy - if not heavier as any other boat in my marina, inside of my hatches are finished, Gemlux hardware...& it's got positive foam floatation. I may have got lucky...but QC appears to have been spot on for my particular boat.
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Old 03-17-2019, 06:10 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Saltydawg15 View Post
World cat, key west and Parker are not known as world class boat builders so I will give you guys a pass as you must have gone in with lower expectations. I don't care about the lower production numbers, but I paid top dollar and don't think I should have to play with the boat and figure out the defects.
I beg your pardon. It is pretty insulting to say we have low expectations. I have been boating for all my life which is over 70 years and have had several boats even a new sailboat of 32 ft. I have been a manufacturing manager for 38 years and have even qualified my company for ISO 9001. I am not some hillbilly that thinks if it floats it is a boat. If my boat has any defects I need a microscope to find them.

Perhaps you are one of those customers that nothing is ever right and the company wishes you had bought from someone else.
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Old 03-17-2019, 06:38 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Saltydawg15 View Post
just received a new boat and the sales guy tells me, look it over for a few days and then call us with whatever you need fixed. This is my second new boat in the last year and a half and the same thing with the last. I have to be their quality control why as boaters do we accept this? When I buy anything else much less the most expensive thing next to my house I don't have to go through it and determine all the faults.

My prior two boats before these these two were used and I will not buy another new boat because going used was much better because the other owner (QC) already fixed everything.

i purposely didn't mention the manufacturer because I don't think it matters, they're all the same in my book.
Worldcat, Parker, and Key West..... but they're all the same? In your book?
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Old 03-17-2019, 07:28 PM
  #34  
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Ok Its a problem world wide and is not confined to just the US I have stood with a foot n both places management and with the guys on the floor doing the work making and assembly and even the initial launch and test drive !
I personally have spent all my life messing with boats and boating Inboards and out boards and spent may hours following boat racing and had boxes of photos of all and anything that took my fancy at the time !
So this is where the industry is falling down badly INEXSPERIANCE AT ALL LEVELS !most guys never even seen one of the boats they are making in the water and don't have a clue of stresses and strains and what part of the boat takes the pounding banging and get damaged and where need to be strengthened and made thick !
Its just a job thats it !!Having a foot in both doors I implemented trips on boats that they had made and saw first hand what is involved from the workshop to the first splash !Then all the procedure's of checking for leaks every where he climbing onto the fly bridge and backing out and slowly motoring all the time checking all and everything then throttles down and away !They each had a turn from dead stop to full speed and getting the feel of turning stopping and backing etc etc When the van returned each of the guys were beaming from ear to ear and chattering 19 to the dozen like a bunch of chimps !!
During my initiation of being the newbie I learned what was needed and levels of skills of each person then i had a starting point and basic level of training that was needed and where to start ! Getting people enthusiastic and wanting to learn more is a major up hill battle and during the process making workers responsible for what they doing and signing work sheets was clincher that sealed the deal that if there was any kind of fault or problem there name was on that job and one of the reasons I never let guy work alone so they checked each others work and never left the job till it was finished !In 6 months attitude's changed dramatically and the guys became family orientated and helped each other . ABSENTEE and having days off completely stopped , quality improved out of sight and repairs of any sort was a non event even guys I other department commented on the whole change in every ones attitude's and workmanship we were producing ! !
So thats my attitude to work and what I expect its a ongoing mission all and everyplace I work in what ever country I was in ! There's no job I haven't done so I take no prisoners and bull shit is for the garden .
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:45 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by 6104696 View Post
When you have a new house built, the builder tells you to run through the house and make a punch list. Building a boat is much more akin to building a house than to building a car. A house, like a boat, is a low volume project that is built from the outside in (build the shell first, then fill it, plumb it, wire it, finish it), largely with manual labor. Cars are high volume assembly-line items that are built from the inside out (shell goes on last) with pre-assembled and pre-finished sub assemblies, with a lot of automation.

There is usually not enough volume, and too much customization in boats to allow for such automation and pretested subassemblies (I am aware that some manufacturers might do some of the above to some extent, but it is the exception not the rule, and they still have to deal with much more manual labor than cars).

Do we "accept" poor quality? I am not sure what that means. Should new boat buyers go on strike and stop buying boats until all builders automate and improve? Kinda tough to go boating that way. Do we go to the Supreme Court with a lawsuit every time there is a warranty item? Run to social media and start a bash thread? None of the above really works for most people...

YMMV.
not all cars are mass assembled yet have world class assembly... nice generalization. Boats certainly are complex but the issue really lies with a lack of some builders having adequate or even good processes that lead to great results but instead rely on humans, who we all know can make mistakes, to do everything they are supposed to do and manage with no support or process to ensure the est output.
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by bills106 View Post
For the vast majority of builders, ISO would be virtually impossible to achieve or maintain without nearly doubling the cost of manufacture. The only ones who can afford it are the largest corporate conglomerate divisions who have a hugely top heavy office staff already. The few that do it now are mainly using it as a tool to sell into CE (Euro) countries who restrict imports using the ISO standards as an excuse to protect their markets.

Those few boat builders that do have ISO have not materially reduced their warranty rework either, that's the kool aid talking. Many still have horrible warranty rates, now they just have a lot more paperwork to document it. I've been through the ISO certification process with two fortune 500 companies as an engineering manager so I'm speaking from real world experience. The cost to produce went up significantly but the quality didnt.
disgree
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Old 03-18-2019, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by vyper340 View Post

not all cars are mass assembled yet have world class assembly... nice generalization.
yes.....and what are the prices of these "not mass assembled" cars, relative to their mass-produced counterparts that drive the same roads and get to all the same destinations, with comparable or superior reliability?

and....have you researched the maintenance requirements on a Bugatti?

LOL.....
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Old 03-18-2019, 04:56 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Saltydawg15 View Post
World cat, key west and Parker are not known as world class boat builders so I will give you guys a pass as you must have gone in with lower expectations. I don't care about the lower production numbers, but I paid top dollar and don't think I should have to play with the boat and figure out the defects.
Disagree about Parker. I am a marine surveyor and look at LOTS of boats. I own a Parker and looked at lots of them before I bought. They are world class boats. I went in with very high expectations and I wasn't disappointed.
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Old 03-18-2019, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Saltydawg15 View Post
just received a new boat and the sales guy tells me, look it over for a few days and then call us with whatever you need fixed. This is my second new boat in the last year and a half and the same thing with the last. I have to be their quality control why as boaters do we accept this? When I buy anything else much less the most expensive thing next to my house I don't have to go through it and determine all the faults.

My prior two boats before these these two were used and I will not buy another new boat because going used was much better because the other owner (QC) already fixed everything.
i purposely didn't mention the manufacturer because I don't think it matters, they're all the same in my book.


I bought a new boat in Nov 2010. It is a 2011 model. I have not fixed anything I did not damage personally by not being carefull ( I banged a 12# anchor to the starboard inner gunwhale moving it in heavy seas from stern to bow-nasty scratch - gelcoat dude fixed it like new) . It looks nicer than it was when delivered. The F250 has run great since the boat was delivered to me Dec of 2011. Nothing needs fixing. It cruises at 35 great. You need to raise your expectations and avoid the upper lower tier sales bullshit. Check what real owner's say about their boats, ask them about what it was like when it was delivered. Ask them if anything was wrong at delivery. Don't fall in love with brand names, don't listen to salesmen or believe ads. Do your own careful research. Fight your own prejudices and insecurities. Have and open mind..

Manufacturing quality starts with owner's, managers and employees that care about what and how they are building a product. It is a culture in which all members are involved. They are all involved in the why and where does an error ocurr and how do we prevent it from recurring. Pointing fingers at the end consumer does not make a better quality product. They had nothing to do with the build.

Last edited by solarfry; 03-18-2019 at 05:32 PM.
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Old 03-18-2019, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bills106 View Post
For the vast majority of builders, ISO would be virtually impossible to achieve or maintain without nearly doubling the cost of manufacture. The only ones who can afford it are the largest corporate conglomerate divisions who have a hugely top heavy office staff already. The few that do it now are mainly using it as a tool to sell into CE (Euro) countries who restrict imports using the ISO standards as an excuse to protect their markets.

Those few boat builders that do have ISO have not materially reduced their warranty rework either, that's the kool aid talking. Many still have horrible warranty rates, now they just have a lot more paperwork to document it. I've been through the ISO certification process with two fortune 500 companies as an engineering manager so I'm speaking from real world experience. The cost to produce went up significantly but the quality didnt.
you obviously don't know the ISO standards, the cost is not much to set up and much less to maintain. We have been certified since 1998.
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