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Paddlers And The Navigation Rules

Old 03-15-2019, 03:14 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by autobaun70 View Post
Here is an example that popped up near the top of a search for "kayak right of way" on google. It is a prime example of the misinformation that many paddlers read, and take as factual. While the author of the article does appear to have general knowledge of how to not get killed, such things should never be put into text. Especially not as the opening line. If anything, point # 3 should be their lead off.

Paddle Education ? Nautical Rules of the Road

This is why you should pump your head tank out as you pass them. throw chum at them. hit them with old squid.
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Old 03-15-2019, 03:37 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by Go Boating View Post
All this reminds me of similar comments I've heard from drivers about bicycles on the roadways.
absolutely. Those of us who pay to play have zero obligation to move at the pace of the self ricious self propelled crowd. We absolutely canít needlessly endanger them, but they must also participate in keeping themselves out of harms way and maintaining the flow of traffic. When you are the slowest one present the onos is on you to allow those who are faster to proceed past in due time without interference. I would prefer to stay at speed, but understand if I canít. If that happens, you too may need to adjust.
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Old 03-15-2019, 05:07 PM
  #103  
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I am not sure about federal law trumping states and counties, particularly in establishing no wake zones and that is what they would do to protect a rowing event. There is certainly no shortage of no wake zones in Florida and that is just over an animal, not even people. Counties could quite easily set aside wide swaths of inland water ways for rowing events or even a permanent rower only area. It might be best to just play along and not force the issue. In my river the locals do try to get along with paddlers, voluntarily, so as not to get the heavy hand of government involved. It would just be the stroke of a government pen that "no waked" the whole river. In fact I live on the only tributary into Estero Bay that is not "no wake" in some manner. We are "normal safe" and you can't even say that about the ICW and other channels in the bay. It is 25. The rest of the bay itself is 25 in the winter and no wake in the summer. That is all state or county law.
With all of that said, in the summer, with the whole bay to paddle around in as a no wake zone, some of these paddle heads insist on paddling in the channel and get mad if you don't slow to pass them.
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Old 03-15-2019, 05:44 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by autobaun70 View Post


absolutely. Those of us who pay to play have zero obligation to move at the pace of the self ricious self propelled crowd. We absolutely canít needlessly endanger them, but they must also participate in keeping themselves out of harms way and maintaining the flow of traffic. When you are the slowest one present the onos is on you to allow those who are faster to proceed past in due time without interference. I would prefer to stay at speed, but understand if I canít. If that happens, you too may need to adjust.
I might suggest that Rule 13 takes a different view.

Rule 13 - Overtaking Name:  ret-arrow-generic-grey.gif
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(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules 4-18, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by NedLloyd View Post


I might suggest that Rule 13 takes a different view.

Rule 13 - Overtaking Attachment 1096936

(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules 4-18, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.
ďkeep out of the wayĒ being the pertinent language.

Note that it it does not say ďnot disturb.Ē
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:33 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by NedLloyd View Post


I might suggest that Rule 13 takes a different view.

Rule 13 - Overtaking Attachment 1096936

(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules 4-18, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.
Lol you lost this argument
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by autobaun70 View Post


absolutely. Those of us who pay to play have zero obligation to move at the pace of the self ricious self propelled crowd. We absolutely canít needlessly endanger them, but they must also participate in keeping themselves out of harms way and maintaining the flow of traffic. When you are the slowest one present the onos is on you to allow those who are faster to proceed past in due time without interference. I would prefer to stay at speed, but understand if I canít. If that happens, you too may need to adjust.
You have worded your statement in a way that (at this time) it appears you would be making reference to an overtaking situation , so I am addressing it as such.


I might suggest that Rule 13 clearly states that the vessel being over taken (slower) is under no obligation to make any adjustments, and that the entire obligation is on the overtaking (faster) vessel.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:56 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by NedLloyd View Post


You have worded your statement in a way that (at this time) it appears you would be making reference to an overtaking situation , so I am addressing it as such.


I might suggest that Rule 13 clearly states that the vessel being over taken (slower) is under no obligation to make any adjustments, and that the entire obligation is on the overtaking (faster) vessel.
you are making a large assumption there. There is absolutely nothing in the text of the rule that states the overtaken vessel is exempt from touching the controls. It would appear they are free to maintain course and speed. It does not state or imply that they are protected from encountering appropriately sized evidence of another vessels presence, in which case they may want to adjust their own vessel for an ideal outcome (not getting wet or spilling their coffee).
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Old 03-16-2019, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by autobaun70 View Post


you are making a large assumption there. There is absolutely nothing in the text of the rule that states the overtaken vessel is exempt from touching the controls. It would appear they are free to maintain course and speed. It does not state or imply that they are protected from encountering appropriately sized evidence of another vessels presence, in which case they may want to adjust their own vessel for an ideal outcome (not getting wet or spilling their coffee).
The Rules (17) burden the stand on vessel with maintaining course and speed.

I am trying to understand the tangent we have drifted off on here. It sounds like we might be touching on two different issues. I don't know anything about the racing shells you encounter. Are they operating on a lake with a lot of motor boat traffic and complaining about motor boat wakes? If so are the normal motor boat wakes a danger to their safety?

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Old 03-16-2019, 05:37 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by USCG Safe Boating D8 View Post
The Rules (17) burden the stand on vessel with maintaining course and speed.

I am trying to understand the tangent we have drifted off on here. It sounds like we might be touching on two different issues. I don't know anything about the racing shells you encounter. Are they operating on a lake with a lot of motor boat traffic and complaining about motor boat wakes? If so are the normal motor boat wakes a danger to their safety?
thats basically the gist. Large lake, and in that several mile long section of lake is a collegiate sailing club, water ski club docks, rowing tream docks, 2 public ramps, and a marina. The rowing coach considers any and all wakes, even at a great distance, to be a danger, and expects that vast large area to be no wake whenever rowers are practicing.

I admidly know very little about racing shells, but canít grasp that a wake from a planing hull hundreds of feet away could be any danger to them at all, assuming they are seaworthy vessels.

Where this applies to this thread is that I canít find any special provision in the federal regs that apply specifically to shells any differently than any other type of vessel. Is there something you are aware of I am missing. State law is also absent of anything.
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Old 03-16-2019, 06:05 AM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by autobaun70 View Post


thats basically the gist. Large lake, and in that several mile long section of lake is a collegiate sailing club, water ski club docks, rowing tream docks, 2 public ramps, and a marina. The rowing coach considers any and all wakes, even at a great distance, to be a danger, and expects that vast large area to be no wake whenever rowers are practicing.

I admidly know very little about racing shells, but canít grasp that a wake from a planing hull hundreds of feet away could be any danger to them at all, assuming they are seaworthy vessels.

Where this applies to this thread is that I canít find any special provision in the federal regs that apply specifically to shells any differently than any other type of vessel. Is there something you are aware of I am missing. State law is also absent of anything.
Part of the intent of this thread was to show that vessels under oars are singled out but one time in the Navigation Rules and that is relative to lighting. We are simply "vessels" under the Navigation Rules with all the attendant responsibilities. I should note that exclusive state waters may not be covered by the Navigation Rules or that there may be special rules that apply there. You may want to have this discussion with your local authorities or take time to discuss it with the rowing teams or groups leaders. There are also likely NGOs that have some presence there. For example, The US Power Squadron may be active in the area and willing to help. I have a peer that covers that area that may be able to help as well.
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Old 03-16-2019, 06:58 AM
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Paul, I for one greatly appreciate these thought provoking threads of yours and am finding them quite insiteful. It was not until you pointed it it that I even realized the number of Rules that written around power driven vessels, and the distinction to be made there. Well worth being aware of....
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Old 03-16-2019, 07:55 AM
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I agree with what NedLloyd says.
And I am thankful for the thread, as there are some rules that require discussion for clarification and it doesn't sound that clear/evident.

And many thanks to most people involved in this conversation. It has remained civilized, something that has become a very expensive commodity.
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Old 03-16-2019, 09:17 AM
  #114  
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Has there ever been a case where a paddler was sued for violating a navigation rule and causing a power boat to hit a shoal or something trying to avoid a collision?
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Old 03-16-2019, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by gfretwell View Post
Has there ever been a case where a paddler was sued for violating a navigation rule and causing a power boat to hit a shoal or something trying to avoid a collision?
I suppose I might ask, what Rule would a paddler (self propelled boat) be violating?

under ďRule 2Ē I really canít think of a situation where at least a good bit of the responsibility would not be apportioned to the power boat. And I can think of a number of Rules that the power boat may be in violation of in order to even find himself in that situation.

Maybe Paul can provide more clarity.
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Old 03-16-2019, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by gfretwell View Post
Has there ever been a case where a paddler was sued for violating a navigation rule and causing a power boat to hit a shoal or something trying to avoid a collision?
I am not aware of any such case.
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Old 03-16-2019, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by NedLloyd View Post


I suppose I might ask, what Rule would a paddler (self propelled boat) be violating?

under ďRule 2Ē I really canít think of a situation where at least a good bit of the responsibility would not be apportioned to the power boat. And I can think of a number of Rules that the power boat may be in violation of in order to even find himself in that situation.

Maybe Paul can provide more clarity.

Something interesting happened last week at work. I have been investing some time and energy into Navigation Rules education and enforcement over the past two weeks. I work in a Federal building where there are a number of federal attorneys. Out of the blue I got an email from a representative of the Federal Bar Association asking if I could sit in on one of their continuing education sessions on investigating maritime accidents. I have investigated accidents in some sense of the word but have not been a certified CG investigator. I and a CG investigator are going to participate in their CE session. I have done a good bit of research into it in the past and you are absolutely correct about apportionment. If maritime accidents go to litigation, there will almost certainly be an apportionment of fault. I am hoping at the CE session I can pick the brains of some of the Admiralty Attorneys present. Should be fascinating.

I am going to launch a general Navigation Rules thread in a few weeks, and we can broaden the scope of the discussion away from paddle boat specific Rules.
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Old 03-16-2019, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by NedLloyd View Post
Paul, I for one greatly appreciate these thought provoking threads of yours and am finding them quite insiteful. It was not until you pointed it it that I even realized the number of Rules that written around power driven vessels, and the distinction to be made there. Well worth being aware of....
To be completely honest, I am learning as we go along too. Each time I crack open the Rules book on my desk to make sure I am dispensing the right information, I am reinforcing my knowledge. Heck, I can't even remember what it was, but I typed something out a few days ago and posted it. I read my post again and it didn't feel quite right. Back to the book. I had to make a little edit. Something to do with channels. Oh well. I fixed it.
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Old 03-16-2019, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by NedLloyd View Post


I suppose I might ask, what Rule would a paddler (self propelled boat) be violating?

under ďRule 2Ē I really canít think of a situation where at least a good bit of the responsibility would not be apportioned to the power boat. And I can think of a number of Rules that the power boat may be in violation of in order to even find himself in that situation.

Maybe Paul can provide more clarity.
If a rower has to follow the nav rules I can think of a number of crossing situations in narrow channels that would apply. To start with a kayaker crossing a channel from the power boater's starboard side is the give way vessel but they still think they have the right of way. .
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Old 03-16-2019, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by gfretwell View Post
If a rower has to follow the nav rules I can think of a number of crossing situations in narrow channels that would apply. To start with a kayaker crossing a channel from the power boater's starboard side is the give way vessel but they still think they have the right of way. .
As Paul has pointed out above, Rule 14 for Head On Situations, and Rule 15 for Crossing Situations apply specifically to Power Driven Vessels, so these Rules do not apply when encountering canoes, kayaks, row boats. SUPs, dorys, rowing shells or any other non powered craft.
In these situations I believe Rule 2 would apply.

Rule 2 - Responsibility Name:  ret-arrow-generic-grey.gif
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(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master, or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

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