Notices
Like Tree50Likes

Paddlers And The Navigation Rules

Old 03-13-2019, 08:44 AM
  #21  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Perth WA
Posts: 1,832
Default

rule 1: for power boaters when it comes to "human powered watercraft".
slow down to almost stop, power up just slightly ,trowel slow enough to make the biggest wake you can. its funny watching them trying to paddle over the wake.

OP making rules for "human powered watercraft" is futile , "the majority" are ignorant ,self indulge pricks. that think they own the waterways with rights of way.

just one recent example: the other day i was playing in a "secluded area" with my little 15 foot toy boat (135 hp motor) doing tail stands , circles , just general hooning and mucking about.
mr colorful with his kayak decides that he wanted to come paddling directly though my play area and abuse me for not being cautious of his presence and quoting that i am required to give him right of way, WTF, at that time i wish i had a jet boat he would have been hosed right of that thing.

i 100% agree that rules should be made and enforced in regards to the way operators of these craft conduct themselves, there should also be required to keep out of the way of powercraft , and not assume right of way in any and all situation.

LATE EDIT: for the record , i was well aware of the clowns presents at all times !.

good luck trying to make rules and expect them to be abided by..
72barracuda likes this.

Last edited by 1breakinit; 03-13-2019 at 09:02 AM.
1breakinit is offline  
Old 03-13-2019, 09:02 AM
  #22  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: SoCal
Posts: 150
Default

Originally Posted by USCG Safe Boating D8 View Post
I am going to tackle that issue. I see it too in Orange Beach when I vacation there with my motor boat. There is only one of me and there are hundreds of rental facilities, so I have to develop a strategy where I can employ others to effect my plan. I wish I could get all of the states to incorporate the Navigation Rules by reference. Legally they would adopt the rules EXACTLY as written. That would give state officers much more horsepower in dealing with some of these touchy navigation rules issues.
This happened here last fall, and honestly shocked it doesn't happen more frequently.

https://argonautnews.com/kayaker-kil...arina-del-rey/
hbouldin1216 is offline  
Old 03-13-2019, 09:05 AM
  #23  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Perth WA
Posts: 1,832
Default

Originally Posted by fireisland1 View Post
sorry wrong.

You can always maneuver even if it means all engine stop. You can be surrounded by those costco boaters. but you can't swat them like flies. if you drift into shallow waters to avoid collision, then that's what you have to do. You can start the maritime law suite later
there is a time and place for ignorance and arrogance , the waterways are not one of them .
1breakinit is offline  
Old 03-13-2019, 09:27 AM
  #24  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 485
Default

Originally Posted by fireisland1 View Post
You can always maneuver even if it means all engine stop.
not when you draft 3' at idle and you're trying to run through a 2' channel full of kooks!
chevyrulz is offline  
Old 03-13-2019, 09:35 AM
  #25  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 7,059
Default

What do the cops say about your blue light. The CG and maritime rules may not talk about blue lights but state laws do.
gfretwell is offline  
Old 03-13-2019, 10:08 AM
  #26  
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 90
Default

Question.

Last year I was running out of the anchorage while in the channel at about 25 mph in a 22 CC more than 1,000 feet from shore. Perfectly legal since I passed the sign that read "Resume Safe Operation." Just then the local HS rowing team decides to cut through the channel out from the behind the moored sail boats.

As soon as I saw the tip of the row boat I throttled down sending my two passengers flying forward. They also noticed right away but the row boat was so long that the rowers in the front stopped rowing or braked while the rowers in the back kept rowing.

There were sailboats moored left and right that blocked their viz and hid them from me. The channel is was probably 150 feet wide. They were also moving fairly fast at least 15 mph by my guess.

We both stopped within talking distance to each and they just gave me dirty looks.

The question is who would have been negligent if there was an accident??? Or partial negligence in who's favor?







.
Ralph500 is offline  
Old 03-13-2019, 10:12 AM
  #27  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 6,789
Default

Originally Posted by 1breakinit View Post
at that time i wish i had a jet boat he would have been hosed right of that thing.
Have you never seen anyone tilt their engine so the prop only has one blade in the water and the amount of spray you can generate with a 5 second blast on the throttle? Of course I'm far too mature to do that and I guess you would be too
72barracuda likes this.
Clinker is offline  
Old 03-13-2019, 10:55 AM
  #28  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 376
Default

Originally Posted by gofastsandman View Post


i'm sure you folks will write a succinct quide to
common sense safety and courtesy for folks just
getting wet so to speak.

I know I get about 30 seconds into my safety speech before

I see them drifting.

I start with the PDF/ ditch bag and then the radio.
I joke sometimes that my profession is a boating safety marketing. Safety really is a tough sell.
USCG Safe Boating D8 is offline  
Old 03-13-2019, 11:02 AM
  #29  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 376
Default

Originally Posted by gfretwell View Post
What do the cops say about your blue light. The CG and maritime rules may not talk about blue lights but state laws do.
I have never seen where LA precludes the use of a steady blue led light in a maritime environment. I have even talked with some of my buds at Wildlife and Fisheries who said that it was not illegal. A flashing blue light would be a different story. If I learn that my steady blue light is illegal, I will certainly stop. As it stands right now though it is the only available light that I am confident that will not be mistaken for any other navigation light.
USCG Safe Boating D8 is offline  
Old 03-13-2019, 11:07 AM
  #30  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 376
Default

Originally Posted by Ralph500 View Post
Question.

Last year I was running out of the anchorage while in the channel at about 25 mph in a 22 CC more than 1,000 feet from shore. Perfectly legal since I passed the sign that read "Resume Safe Operation." Just then the local HS rowing team decides to cut through the channel out from the behind the moored sail boats.

As soon as I saw the tip of the row boat I throttled down sending my two passengers flying forward. They also noticed right away but the row boat was so long that the rowers in the front stopped rowing or braked while the rowers in the back kept rowing.

There were sailboats moored left and right that blocked their viz and hid them from me. The channel is was probably 150 feet wide. They were also moving fairly fast at least 15 mph by my guess.

We both stopped within talking distance to each and they just gave me dirty looks.

The question is who would have been negligent if there was an accident??? Or partial negligence in who's favor?

.
Let me ask you this question for the sake of discussion. When you made your determination that 25 MPH was a safe speed in that environment, did you take into account that another vessel may be coming from behind the moored sailboats?

corkfish and NedLloyd like this.
USCG Safe Boating D8 is offline  
Old 03-13-2019, 11:12 AM
  #31  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 105
Default

I have a fishing kayak that I use a good bit in Maryland. I mostly fish the Susquehanna below the last dam. I also owned several different power boats. There are lots of laws but common sense seems to be the best guide. 99.9% of the time that I am fishing in my kayak I will be in water that 99.9% of power boats cant get into. When I am in water (usually to and from the launch) where power boats are around I really don't worry about the law. I worry about staying alive. I will stay out of the way of power boats. I would rather be alive than right.
hbouldin1216 likes this.
Backdoc01 is offline  
Old 03-13-2019, 11:19 AM
  #32  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,919
Default

Originally Posted by fireisland1 View Post
sorry wrong.

You can always maneuver even if it means all engine stop. You can be surrounded by those costco boaters. but you can't swat them like flies. if you drift into shallow waters to avoid collision, then that's what you have to do. You can start the maritime law suite later
whats wrong??

no you cannot always maneuver
mystery is offline  
Old 03-13-2019, 11:23 AM
  #33  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,919
Default

Originally Posted by Ralph500 View Post
Question.

Last year I was running out of the anchorage while in the channel at about 25 mph in a 22 CC more than 1,000 feet from shore. Perfectly legal since I passed the sign that read "Resume Safe Operation." Just then the local HS rowing team decides to cut through the channel out from the behind the moored sail boats.

As soon as I saw the tip of the row boat I throttled down sending my two passengers flying forward. They also noticed right away but the row boat was so long that the rowers in the front stopped rowing or braked while the rowers in the back kept rowing.

There were sailboats moored left and right that blocked their viz and hid them from me. The channel is was probably 150 feet wide. They were also moving fairly fast at least 15 mph by my guess.

We both stopped within talking distance to each and they just gave me dirty looks.

The question is who would have been negligent if there was an accident??? Or partial negligence in who's favor?

.
first, rowers are the worst. worse than kayakers, in my experience. i was docked near one of the most prestigious rowing clubs. they are total assholes, think they own the waters. they are worse than the kayakers because they have motor powered boats and think they can speed in channels marked 5mph/no wake and throw huge wakes. i actually was thrown off a dock once and injured.

second, how far were you from the moorings? 1,000 feet as well? were the boats in the moorings being rocked by your wake?

row boats should have spotters or someone watching, not just rowing blindly. i wouldn't stop so fast to injure my own passengers. maybe would loudly say hang on and then throttle down once i knew they were prepared for it. abrupt throttle down / up is how people get their teeth knocked out, injured, etc.

i always to try to account for the possibility there is a boat in a blind spot but you can't always get it perfect. on my recent 3000 mile trip, i successfully throttled down and up hundreds of times for passing boats, docks, etc but there were two times i missed someone. one was a small camouflage fishing boat up in some marsh, second was a small police boat coming around a corner cutting through a shallow area (out of channel) at speed in a blind spot. made sure to watch both boats after my wake hit to make sure everyone was OK. i dont think i could've done anything differently. if i slowed down i would've thrown an even larger wake.
mystery is offline  
Old 03-13-2019, 11:24 AM
  #34  
Senior MemberCaptains Club MemberPLEDGER
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 9,825
Default

Originally Posted by USCG Safe Boating D8 View Post
I am going to tackle that issue. I see it too in Orange Beach when I vacation there with my motor boat. There is only one of me and there are hundreds of rental facilities, so I have to develop a strategy where I can employ others to effect my plan. I wish I could get all of the states to incorporate the Navigation Rules by reference. Legally they would adopt the rules EXACTLY as written. That would give state officers much more horsepower in dealing with some of these touchy navigation rules issues.
You are doing the work of God tackling this one. IMO the issue is largely that the rental places don't have a uniform, easy to convey/understand "short list" to go over with their customers. The points covered in the quick walk though provided by the rental companies should specifically cover interactions with power vessels, especially in tight quarters. As it is now the message given is from the point of view of a fellow kayaker, rather than a balanced overall how the water works on a big picture basis.

Beyond the rental folks, the other bigger issue with paddlers is so many of them choose to use launch sites as their home base when they go out for the day. Unlike boaters, they never really go anywhere. They show up at the ramp, may or may not tie up the whole show launching their plastic flotilla, and then seem to never get further than a few hundred feet from the launch. Mostly because they have cheap ass kayaks and paddles and can't fathom going any further. They continuously come back to the launch and very well may tie up the ramp over and over again going to the car for snacks. Then get pissy when someone calls them out for tying up a trailer spot, but thats where they want to park because it's close to the ramp/shoreline. All the while they barely get their kayaks out of the way while they are screwing off on land, and wander around like they are lost. For this crowd there needs to be clear message conveyed that boat launches are just that, launches, not hang out spots. Launch and leave, and take your crap with you.
autobaun70 is offline  
Old 03-13-2019, 11:38 AM
  #35  
Senior MemberCaptains Club MemberPLEDGER
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 9,825
Default

Originally Posted by mystery View Post
first, rowers are the worst. worse than kayakers, in my experience. i was docked near one of the most prestigious rowing clubs. they are total assholes, think they own the waters. they are worse than the kayakers because they have motor powered boats and think they can speed in channels marked 5mph/no wake and throw huge wakes. i actually was thrown off a dock once and injured.

second, how far were you from the moorings? 1,000 feet as well? were the boats in the moorings being rocked by your wake?

row boats should have spotters or someone watching, not just rowing blindly. i wouldn't stop so fast to injure my own passengers. maybe would loudly say hang on and then throttle down once i knew they were prepared for it. abrupt throttle down / up is how people get their teeth knocked out, injured, etc.

i always to try to account for the possibility there is a boat in a blind spot but you can't always get it perfect. on my recent 3000 mile trip, i successfully throttled down and up hundreds of times for passing boats, docks, etc but there were two times i missed someone. one was a small camouflage fishing boat up in some marsh, second was a small police boat coming around a corner cutting through a shallow area (out of channel) at speed in a blind spot. made sure to watch both boats after my wake hit to make sure everyone was OK. i dont think i could've done anything differently. if i slowed down i would've thrown an even larger wake.
I hate crew teams. Not sure who told them they were special or had special rights to the water, but that guy needs his ass beaten with an oar. When I was at Clemson I had my folks boat there during the fall and spring. Closest ramp to campus was in the part of the lake where the crew practices. One of the main channels in the upper lake. According to the Rossie O'Donnel looking coach with the bull horn, the entire section of lake is no wake when they are practicing. I've scoured the rules of navigation, and can't find anything to that effect, but that was her version. She called DNR on us no telling how many times because we refused to spend our entire outing at idle. We would pop up on plane and quickly get around them with minimum wake (18' stepped hull boat, so hardly any wake). That wasn't good enough for her. DNR never wrote us a ticket though, so I'm guessing she knew a lot less about the rules of the road than she thought.
autobaun70 is offline  
Old 03-13-2019, 12:00 PM
  #36  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 376
Default

Originally Posted by autobaun70 View Post
You are doing the work of God tackling this one. IMO the issue is largely that the rental places don't have a uniform, easy to convey/understand "short list" to go over with their customers. The points covered in the quick walk though provided by the rental companies should specifically cover interactions with power vessels, especially in tight quarters. As it is now the message given is from the point of view of a fellow kayaker, rather than a balanced overall how the water works on a big picture basis.

Beyond the rental folks, the other bigger issue with paddlers is so many of them choose to use launch sites as their home base when they go out for the day. Unlike boaters, they never really go anywhere. They show up at the ramp, may or may not tie up the whole show launching their plastic flotilla, and then seem to never get further than a few hundred feet from the launch. Mostly because they have cheap ass kayaks and paddles and can't fathom going any further. They continuously come back to the launch and very well may tie up the ramp over and over again going to the car for snacks. Then get pissy when someone calls them out for tying up a trailer spot, but thats where they want to park because it's close to the ramp/shoreline. All the while they barely get their kayaks out of the way while they are screwing off on land, and wander around like they are lost. For this crowd there needs to be clear message conveyed that boat launches are just that, launches, not hang out spots. Launch and leave, and take your crap with you.
You raise a few interesting points. Let me ask you this question. Do you have first hand experience at a kayak rental place? I have only been to one. I used it twice and they went over nothing relative to safety other than making sure we had PFDs. My perception is that this is the norm, but I need to visit a few more. It would be up to the states to adopt any laws on the what paddle craft livery businesses are required to do prior to renting out a vessel. With that said, we can certainly provide quick and easy to follow literature and encourage best practices in businesses.

Launches are a completely different issue altogether. I don't see launches presenting any significant human safety concerns. Courtesy, understanding and awareness issues arise alarmingly frequently. I am much faster launching my motor boat than I am my kayaks. I avoid back down launches to the extent possible, but in this area, the options are few and far between. I don't trailer a loaded kayak from my garage to the ramp. I transport it in the back of my truck. If I put all my rods, tackle and gear in it while it's in the truck, I can't manage it by myself. I use as little of the backdown area as I can when I launch, but I am just going to be there a bit longer than I am in my motorboat. If I can park reasonably closely, I will toss the kayak out of the truck. Moor it out of the way and make a few trips loading the gear. To your point though, yes kayakers can be oblivious to their surroundings. As can motor boaters. Ramps can really bring it out. Beyond my boat launches, I see a lot of launch activity at the ramp adjacent to the dog park I frequent. I have seen some heated exchanges. There's even a regular group of people that hang out at one of the gazeebos, drink a few cold ones and enjoy the spectacle. If I were a divorce attorney, I'd advertise at boat ramps!

More and more launches are incorporating kayak specific facilities, and I think that is the way forward. I have always thought an excise tax should be hung on human powered craft and placed into the Sport Fish Restoration Trust Fund. That would have the paddlers contributing a share more proportionate with their involvement. As a kayaker, I'd be delighted to kick into the fund.

autobaun70 and WeeKilt like this.
USCG Safe Boating D8 is offline  
Old 03-13-2019, 12:06 PM
  #37  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 376
Default

Originally Posted by hbouldin1216 View Post
This happened here last fall, and honestly shocked it doesn't happen more frequently.

https://argonautnews.com/kayaker-kil...arina-del-rey/

I read that right after it occurred. It's hard to get follow details on these incidents. Rarely are there enough details to arrive at informed conclusions.

Plucking this from the article are there any navigation rules violations that stand out?

We don’t have any evidence of a crime, or that the people in the boat were operating recklessly,” Walker said. “So far it looks like a traffic accident.”

According to television news reports, the occupants of the boat were a couple in their 60s who didn’t realize what happened until nearby boaters alerted them to the crash.

USCG Safe Boating D8 is offline  
Old 03-13-2019, 12:14 PM
  #38  
Senior MemberCaptains Club MemberPLEDGER
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 9,825
Default

I have rented a kayak once on the coast of SC. Safety briefing was a joke given by a guy that basically appeared to be a stoned surfer with dreadlocks. Not a thing was mentioned about staying clear of boaters.

I agree with you 100% on there being launch areas away from the ramp for kayakers. Getting to the point where it is almost a necessity in some places. I generally see a mix of users like yourself, and then the rest are largely families that show up with 4-6 people and 2 kayaks that they take turns using. No issue with a kayaker taking a bit longer to get launched and out of the way if they aren't just screwing off. Move at a reasonable pace and all is good. Not much different than an old guy with a jon boat honestly. It's the folks that show up and make the launch a home base for the day that are the most problematic. Some launches areas are not capable of handling that. Many are basically parks where they can easily host all day recreation, and happen to have boat ramps. Others are a parking lot and a ramp, with no usable shoreline other than the ramps. At facilities like that, nobody has any business using it as a hang out spot. Launch and leave, and return when you are done. The two scenarios need to be differentiated and local rules made accordingly. There are some facilities where signage needs to go up advising that using the place as a home base for the day is inappropriate and disallowed.
autobaun70 is offline  
Old 03-13-2019, 12:21 PM
  #39  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 376
Default

Originally Posted by autobaun70 View Post
I have rented a kayak once on the coast of SC. Safety briefing was a joke given by a guy that basically appeared to be a stoned surfer with dreadlocks. Not a thing was mentioned about staying clear of boaters.

I agree with you 100% on there being launch areas away from the ramp for kayakers. Getting to the point where it is almost a necessity in some places. I generally see a mix of users like yourself, and then the rest are largely families that show up with 4-6 people and 2 kayaks that they take turns using. No issue with a kayaker taking a bit longer to get launched and out of the way if they aren't just screwing off. Move at a reasonable pace and all is good. Not much different than an old guy with a jon boat honestly. It's the folks that show up and make the launch a home base for the day that are the most problematic. Some launches areas are not capable of handling that. Many are basically parks where they can easily host all day recreation, and happen to have boat ramps. Others are a parking lot and a ramp, with no usable shoreline other than the ramps. At facilities like that, nobody has any business using it as a hang out spot. Launch and leave, and return when you are done. The two scenarios need to be differentiated and local rules made accordingly. There are some facilities where signage needs to go up advising that using the place as a home base for the day is inappropriate and disallowed.

We need to commission a volunteer service of Launch Marshals to keep everyone straight! More seriously, as users it's up to us to educate other users who don't understand or aren't courteous enough to ensure harmony.
autobaun70 likes this.
USCG Safe Boating D8 is offline  
Old 03-13-2019, 12:27 PM
  #40  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 206
Default

Someone else asked , but no answer, so I ask again.
Is it Legal to use a blue light on the water? I was pulled and boarded about three years ago at night while idling through a no-wake zone- the reason given was the interior (under gunwale lights) were blue and therefore illegal to be on while underway. Officer was very clear it was the color of the lights that were the offense.
This was in the great state of Maryland and a MD DNR officer's statements.
gonnabe is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread