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50 Miles Offshore in a 20' a Bad Idea?

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50 Miles Offshore in a 20' a Bad Idea?

Old 10-04-2017, 09:28 AM
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In law, negligence is based on what a reasonable person would do in the same circumstance. The action you take is proportional to the likelihood of harm, and the severity of that harm. So, if you are handling a vial of nitroglycerin, you have to be more careful than handling a vial of water. Not that the chances of dropping the vial is different for either substance, but the likelihood and severity of the harm is much greater with nitro. so, the reasonable person takes more care when dealing with nitro.

Same with 50 miles offshore. The likelihood of a breakdown is the same as 5 ' offshore, but the likelihood of a bad result is exponentially greater, so you have to take more care in going 50 miles offshore. Whether than means redundancy of twins to lessen the likelihood of being stranded. to better communication and safety equipment, or more careful operation or whatever, because if you sink 50 miles offshore, its a much different ending than sinking 5' offshore.

So, is a 20' boat as safe as a 50' boat when 50 miles offshore. Not for me it isn't, all other things being equal, which they never are.
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Old 10-04-2017, 09:31 AM
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A "how far can I go out" thread where 1/2 the folks say you need a 75' Yellowfin with quads and a kicker and a 42' Freeman buddy boat or you will surely die.

Meanwhile, the other half says you can easily take your stand-up paddle board 125 miles out, and if you don't think you can, you're a land-loving p*ssy.

Never would have seen that coming.
Must be a THT first.
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Old 10-04-2017, 09:35 AM
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Can you swim?
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Old 10-04-2017, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Bullboxer View Post
This is retarded. A 20' boat can get swamped by waves a 50' boat can handle.
See you fail to pay any attention to the statistics and what I said. Given a 50' boat floating in the middle of the ocean and 20' I'm sure the 50' would have a better chance of staying afloat (if both are made of the exact same design just different size). However, the statistics show that a seasoned boater (hence why I said if you know what you are doing) is just as a safe as someone in a 50' boat. You may feel safer in the 50' but you aren't because you do more in it than someone in a 20', when they are seasoned. So not retarded, supported by facts, people in 50' boats die at the same rate as people in 20' boats (the statistics for below 20' are different but again that gets complicated).

The OP asked about going out 50-80 miles in a 20' boat. The response from those of us with 20' boats appears to be, we do it all the time without issue and we are all seasoned boaters. Every boat has limitations, if you are someone who can't determine what those are you are in for trouble. In a 20' boat going out on a clear day with max 2' seas predicted is my limit. I won't go in any other circumstance. I'll do about a 10 mile trip if 3' predicted at any point during the day. I do not go off shore with >= 4' seas predicted at any point during the day. I can't argue with those that say his engine and hull sound too old, I would want to see both in person to make some determination like that.
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Last edited by HOmer72; 10-04-2017 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 10-04-2017, 10:02 AM
  #125  
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we took my 25 mako out to the humps off of marathon a couple years ago, before i repowered, on a day when all the charter boats stayed in and caught a few nice blackfin tuna. So on the way back my sons and I are feeling proud for having toughed it out and stopped to drink a beer and take a leak about 15 miles off.My son calls out he sees something and a lone dude in a 14' carolina skiff comes right by us heading back to shore! I wouldnt recommend it but it can be done. even with a tiller!
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Old 10-04-2017, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by manitunc View Post
In law, negligence is based on what a reasonable person would do in the same circumstance. The action you take is proportional to the likelihood of harm, and the severity of that harm. So, if you are handling a vial of nitroglycerin, you have to be more careful than handling a vial of water. Not that the chances of dropping the vial is different for either substance, but the likelihood and severity of the harm is much greater with nitro. so, the reasonable person takes more care when dealing with nitro.

Same with 50 miles offshore. The likelihood of a breakdown is the same as 5 ' offshore, but the likelihood of a bad result is exponentially greater, so you have to take more care in going 50 miles offshore. Whether than means redundancy of twins to lessen the likelihood of being stranded. to better communication and safety equipment, or more careful operation or whatever, because if you sink 50 miles offshore, its a much different ending than sinking 5' offshore.

So, is a 20' boat as safe as a 50' boat when 50 miles offshore. Not for me it isn't, all other things being equal, which they never are.
Likelihood of a break down increases with time thats why service intervals of a marine engine is measured in hours. A 3 hour ride out increases this likelihood.
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Old 10-04-2017, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by HOmer72 View Post
The people in this thread don't care about scientific study. They have somehow used some ridiculous "time used" theory to discount the statistic that boating is safer than driving. The fact remains that the odds of dying from boating are less than from driving, yet every day you drive. Yes you do it far more often but that doesn't change the fact that driving poses a greater risk to your life than boating. I didn't want to get into all the breakdown but people would rather come up with their redneck math to somehow make boating a far more dangerous activity.

I didn't include the statistics about new boaters because getting into any specifics about the actual studies starts to become very complicated, I mentioned it because the vast majority of the people on this board are experienced boaters so don't fall into the category of boating in general, and it was just a piece of information I thought you might find interesting. Death from boat failure doesn't even register, it's almost all operator error. Hence the mentioning new boaters. Where as in cars it is far less operator error than with boating (i.e. you have less control over the outcome).

In the end all that matters is that given 100,000 people you are more likely to die from driving than boating. Other than putting on a safety belt what do you do?

So to get back to the original post. You are as safe as someone in a $1 million dollar Hydrasports 50' Center console as long as you know what you are doing. Possibly get a kicker on a separate tank and have 2 engines that actually make a difference. (I still find it entertaining that the one cracked hull upside down boat in this thread is a 26+ boat with twin engines).
You seem to lament that people in this thread don't care about "scientific study"; yet have offered no scientific study to support your absurd notion that driving cars is more dangerous than boating. Make sure your scientific study:

Number of registered boats in the US
Number of registered cars in the US
Number of days in the year boat owners operate their vessels
Number of days in the year auto owners operate their vehicles

Then, you can actually INTERPRET the data, instead of just spouting off some drivel about deaths/100,000.

I'll give yo a head start with the data; here are the answers to the first 3 above

Registered Boats - 11.86MM
Registered Autos - 261.8MM
Number of days avg. boat owner operates his/her vessel - 9.2

So, lets see a scientific interpretation of the data...I'll even allow your "The fact remains that the odds of dying from boating are less than from driving, yet every day you drive" statement in as fact, so now you have all the variables...number of days/yr auto owners operate their vehicles = 365.

Here are some obvious conclusions:

There are 22x more cars on the road than boats in the water
Cars are operated 40x per year more than boats.

Share with the group how you interpret these numbers...keeping in mind "scientific study" is more than just presenting arbitrary data...it's about interpreting data and forming logical conclusions...


https://www.statista.com/statistics/...els-in-the-us/

https://hedgescompany.com/automotive...-and-marketing

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ays-in-the-us/
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Old 10-04-2017, 10:17 AM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by manitunc View Post

Same with 50 miles offshore. The likelihood of a breakdown is the same as 5 ' offshore....
Actually it posses half the likelihood of 50 miles as you traverse the 5 mile mark twice.
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Old 10-04-2017, 10:29 AM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by HOmer72 View Post
I can't argue with those that say his engine and hull sound too old, I would want to see both in person to make some determination like that.
I spent the last 3 years going offshore with my wife and kids in a 1996 hull with 1996 motors - the single most reliable outboards I have ever owned or operated.

I just replaced it with a 1998 hull with a 1998 motor and I expect the same/similar results.

The OP, like myself, is a mech and incurable tinkerer type - we are not dependent on the 20 something minimum wage guy at the dealer to add the right amount of oil or to wire a bilge pump correctly. I would trust the OP's motor implicitly. Smokers on a good decarb regiment with well maintained cooling and fuel systems are about as reliable as reliable gets.
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Old 10-04-2017, 10:49 AM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by jfbetz View Post
You seem to lament that people in this thread don't care about "scientific study"; yet have offered no scientific study to support your absurd notion that driving cars is more dangerous than boating. Make sure your scientific study:

Number of registered boats in the US
Number of registered cars in the US
Number of days in the year boat owners operate their vessels
Number of days in the year auto owners operate their vehicles

Then, you can actually INTERPRET the data, instead of just spouting off some drivel about deaths/100,000.

I'll give yo a head start with the data; here are the answers to the first 3 above

Registered Boats - 11.86MM
Registered Autos - 261.8MM
Number of days avg. boat owner operates his/her vessel - 9.2

So, lets see a scientific interpretation of the data...I'll even allow your "The fact remains that the odds of dying from boating are less than from driving, yet every day you drive" statement in as fact, so now you have all the variables...number of days/yr auto owners operate their vehicles = 365.

Here are some obvious conclusions:

There are 22x more cars on the road than boats in the water
Cars are operated 40x per year more than boats.

Share with the group how you interpret these numbers...keeping in mind "scientific study" is more than just presenting arbitrary data...it's about interpreting data and forming logical conclusions...


https://www.statista.com/statistics/...els-in-the-us/

https://hedgescompany.com/automotive...-and-marketing

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ays-in-the-us/
'

You clearly don't get it. Your numbers of hours driving, how many cars are around, blah blah blah. It doesn't matter. The rate of death for a boater is less than for a driver, period. That number takes into account all the variables. If you want to get specific you can argue that it is far safer in a life raft in the pool than it is driving 100 mph drunk in a Yugo. The reason I use the rate per 100,000 is because it takes into account all your variables and in the end you are far safer boating than driving. If you are saying each individual trip on a boat is more dangerous than each individual car trip, possibly, however you drive a butt load more therefore you take far more chances and therefore increase the number of opportunities to have an accident.

Odds are tricky. For instance flipping a coin, if I flip a coin 9 times and get heads all 9 times what are the odds of getting a tails on the next flip? 50%. Intuitively you would think it's almost a guarantee but it is still 50% each flip. So I'm avoiding odds talk and talking rate. What is the rate of death per trip on a boat due to boat failure. Good luck figuring that out.

I don't provide the data because I'm not gathering it all again for people who simply lack the IQ to understand how statistics work. I did it before and it clearly held no sway. Again those of you that think you are safer because you have a bigger boat and 2 engines continue to think that all you want, it doesn't make it true. You can go faster, hold more gear, have more fishing room, bigger gas tanks, more comfort, etc. but safer, the data doesn't show that.

Last edited by HOmer72; 10-04-2017 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 10-04-2017, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by HOmer72 View Post
See you fail to pay any attention to the statistics and what I said. Given a 50' boat floating in the middle of the ocean and 20' I'm sure the 50' would have a better chance of staying afloat (if both are made of the exact same design just different size). However, the statistics show that a seasoned boater (hence why I said if you know what you are doing) is just as a safe as someone in a 50' boat. You may feel safer in the 50' but you aren't because you do more in it than someone in a 20', when they are seasoned. So not retarded, supported by facts, people in 50' boats die at the same rate as people in 20' boats (the statistics for below 20' are different but again that gets complicated).

The OP asked about going out 50-80 miles in a 20' boat. The response from those of us with 20' boats appears to be, we do it all the time without issue and we are all seasoned boaters. Every boat has limitations, if you are someone who can't determine what those are you are in for trouble. In a 20' boat going out on a clear day with max 2' seas predicted is my limit. I won't go in any other circumstance. I'll do about a 10 mile trip if 3' predicted at any point during the day. I do not go off shore with >= 4' seas predicted at any point during the day. I can't argue with those that say his engine and hull sound too old, I would want to see both in person to make some determination like that.
Extremely retarded. You are trying to operate in a vaccum. Nature and mechanical equipment don't work that way. Given both boats in the same conditions in a flat ocean and same age of equipment, yes, it is basically the same. But nature doesn't work that way. 2' forecasts can turn into 10' waves quickly in pop up storms. Good luck to you when that happens. If it hasn't yet, it is just a matter of time. Weather predictions are not 100% accurate. They are guesstimates. This guy posed his question by if it was okay, listed his equipment, and stated he has no GPS. It is stupid to go that far out in the circumstances he stated. A smaller boat is not going to be able to handle the same seas as a larger boat. Those are just facts. You can't isolate the weather and pretend it is not going to be a factor. You have to account for that. Also, distance does matter as well. Speed of vessel can help you outrun storms. Dual engine boats can run home on one and get you through conditions a tiller can't. It sounds like you have never had anything bad happen offshore.
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Old 10-04-2017, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by jfbetz View Post
I suppose you could design a set of circumstances whereby a rickety old, poorly equipped 30-footer is less safe than a well equipped, well maintained 20-footer, but thatís not the circumstances the OP presented.

I would certainly feel more comfortable in Bluewaterpirates rig, than some much larger boats; a bit more than a bay boat, meticulously maintained with an efficient engine to match, electronics on top of electronics, a back up plan, a boat that wonít sink, and some good experience.

But other than that, I donít need to fish to put food on the table. And outside of a larger rig, with twins...Iíll get my rockfish closer to shore, and my Tuna and Mahi at the fresh fish market...

Peace
Don't back peddle now! That crazy azz Bluewaterpirate will have your hiney treading water 50 miles offshore in a school of great whites. I would switch to canned tuna and have Amazon deliver it to your door as that ride to the fish market could get pretty sketchy.
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Old 10-04-2017, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by HOmer72 View Post
'

You clearly don't get it. Your numbers of hours driving, how many cars are around, blah blah blah. It doesn't matter. The rate of death for a boater is less than for a driver, period. That number takes into account all the variables. If you want to get specific you can argue that it is far safer in a life raft in the pool than it is driving 100 mph drunk in a Yugo. The reason I use the rate per 100,000 is because it takes into account all your variables and in the end you are far safer boating than driving. If you are saying each individual trip on a boat is more dangerous than each individual car trip, possibly, however you drive a butt load more therefore you take far more chances and therefore increase the number of opportunities to have an accident.

Odds are tricky. For instance flipping a coin, if I flip a coin 9 times and get heads all 9 times what are the odds of getting a tails on the next flip? 50%. Intuitively you would think it's almost a guarantee but it is still 50% each flip. So I'm avoiding odds talk and talking rate. What is the rate of death per trip on a boat due to boat failure. Good luck figuring that out.

I don't provide the data because I'm not gathering it all again for people who simply lack the IQ to understand how statistics work. I did it before and it clearly held no sway. Again those of you that think you are safer because you have a bigger boat and 2 engines continue to think that all you want, it doesn't make it true. You can go faster, hold more gear, have more fishing room, bigger gas tanks, more comfort, etc. but safer, the data doesn't show that.

Not sure why, but I keep thinking of Forrest Gump. But thank you for clearing that up...all of your tricky odds, coin flipping, odds talk and rate, inflating the life raft in the pool thingy, driving Yugos...all makes sense now. And all of your phantom data...all spot on. I'll have a 25' whaler with twins for sale shortly...and looking for a less expensive smaller rig. Thank you again...
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Old 10-04-2017, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Bullboxer View Post
Extremely retarded. You are trying to operate in a vaccum. Nature and mechanical equipment don't work that way. Given both boats in the same conditions in a flat ocean and same age of equipment, yes, it is basically the same. But nature doesn't work that way. 2' forecasts can turn into 10' waves quickly in pop up storms. Good luck to you when that happens. If it hasn't yet, it is just a matter of time. Weather predictions are not 100% accurate. They are guesstimates. This guy posed his question by if it was okay, listed his equipment, and stated he has no GPS. It is stupid to go that far out in the circumstances he stated. A smaller boat is not going to be able to handle the same seas as a larger boat. Those are just facts. You can't isolate the weather and pretend it is not going to be a factor. You have to account for that. Also, distance does matter as well. Speed of vessel can help you outrun storms. Dual engine boats can run home on one and get you through conditions a tiller can't. It sounds like you have never had anything bad happen offshore.
Maybe you should learn to spell vacuum before you use such big words

Just because something appears to make sense doesn't mean that it is true. You make statements about x can handle conditions better than y with zero evidence of such. You say 2' can pop up to 10', never seen it in 40 years, 2' to 6' largest change I've ever witnessed and I was 50 feet from shore when I got caught in it coming around the tip of Dauphin Island. Almost swamped the boat. I should have headed out further around the tip. Again, the studies show that those with 20' boats are just as safe as those in 50' (ok I'm not sure on the upper limit), whether it be because of boat size or because of knowing the limits of their boats. The accidents happen at the same rate on these vessels.
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Old 10-04-2017, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by jfbetz View Post
Not sure why, but I keep thinking of Forrest Gump. But thank you for clearing that up...all of your tricky odds, coin flipping, odds talk and rate, inflating the life raft in the pool thingy, driving Yugos...all makes sense now. And all of your phantom data...all spot on. I'll have a 25' whaler with twins for sale shortly...and looking for a less expensive smaller rig. Thank you again...
If you own it for safety reasons, you are welcome. If you own it because it allows for more comfortable fishing, faster speeds in larger seas, more range, etc. Then I would keep your current boat.

You know I think you people with larger boats think we are calling a 20' boat and a 50' boat equivalent, that isn't the case. What I am saying is the safety record of the two is equivalent. Why this is the case I can't tell you, but the data indicates that those of us with 20' boats pay attention to our limitations at the same rate as those with 50' boats. The OP asked if 80 miles is past a limitation of a 20' boat and I say no, not on a clear well planned out day.

Last edited by HOmer72; 10-04-2017 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 10-04-2017, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by kmoose View Post
Don't back peddle now! That crazy azz Bluewaterpirate will have your hiney treading water 50 miles offshore in a school of great whites. I would switch to canned tuna and have Amazon deliver it to your door as that ride to the fish market could get pretty sketchy.
Canned tuna is no Bueno...got to add too much mayo, and that makes me fat. Prefer my tuna raw, in little strips, draped over rice with some wasabi and soy.

On a side note, I have water-ski'd 5 miles out off the coast of ocean city, md in an old 17' Chapparal. The ocean can be very inviting at times. By the time we headed back in, weather had changed; getting through the inlet was a bit more than I cared for; , especially when you are responsible for others. took a wave over the stern; pushed the bottom cowling of the outboard below the water line. Now that I'm older, and like Al Bundy...married with children, I don't need that type of headache 50 miles out...
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Old 10-04-2017, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by HOmer72 View Post
Maybe you should learn to spell vacuum before you use such big words

Just because something appears to make sense doesn't mean that it is true. You make statements about x can handle conditions better than y with zero evidence of such. You say 2' can pop up to 10', never seen it in 40 years, 2' to 6' largest change I've ever witnessed and I was 50 feet from shore when I got caught in it coming around the tip of Dauphin Island. Almost swamped the boat. I should have headed out further around the tip. Again, the studies show that those with 20' boats are just as safe as those in 50' (ok I'm not sure on the upper limit), whether it be because of boat size or because of knowing the limits of their boats. The accidents happen at the same rate on these vessels.
oh, the old "I caught a spelling mistake on a forum so that makes me superior" comment. Gotta love those.

It is true. You have some inferiority complex because you have a single engine boat and feel put down when people say what you are doing is stupid. Funny that in 40 years of boating you haven't seen that in the gulf since I have almost every summer and I fish from Louisiana to PCB regularly year round. If you don't think a 50' center console can handle waves a 20' boat can't, let's send you out one weekend in a tournament when some of the nor-techs and other big center consoles are fishing and have you stay out there and see how well you do before you get swamped and start taking on water that your single bilge pump can't get out with more water coming in. You are trying to cherry pick points to support the fact that you have a small boat and fish offshore and don't see an inherit danger in it when other people clearly do. We aren't even talking about the number of engines, redundancy of radio's, number of bilge pumps of GPH capacity of them, etc. You are trying to argue that a 20' boat is as safe as a 50' boat based on a set of circumstances you are creating and it simply is not true.

My evidence is my own eyeballs. I know this based on first hand experience of being out in the gulf on my old 21' regulator that could not handle the same sea conditions as my larger grady white (which I bought after that trip) and making it back barely from a horrific storm that much larger boats around me handled a lot easier than I did. I also know that from breaking down coming back in from the triple rig off of Dauphin Island with a single and being pushed into the mouth of mobile bay before someone stopped to help with sea tow on the way and getting rocked across Dixie Bar into the mouth of the bay. If you can't understand how a large center console can handle larger seas than a smaller center console you are a moron. Plain and simple.
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Old 10-04-2017, 11:43 AM
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It wouldn't be suicidal but it isn't smart either. Your fuel isn't enough if you hit bad weather. Everything could go right and you could be fine. But is that the scenario you plan for? VHF is line of sight, is there always going to be boats that would help you or relay message within 15 miles? One battery? If your battery craps out, no radio, no engine, 80 miles from home.
Find a fishing buddy with a bigger boat or go with a buddy boat at a minimum. Have a handheld VHF, and lots of safety equipment. Lots of people have done it but it doesn't mean its wise.
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Old 10-04-2017, 12:07 PM
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Since the guy that says you are as safe in a 20' boat as you are in a 50' boat, I'll place these statistics here since he loves statistics so much. Enjoy the capsizing and flooding/ swamping especially.
Attached Images   

Last edited by Bullboxer; 10-04-2017 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 10-04-2017, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by quonniediver View Post
It wouldn't be suicidal but it isn't smart either. Your fuel isn't enough if you hit bad weather. Everything could go right and you could be fine. But is that the scenario you plan for? VHF is line of sight, is there always going to be boats that would help you or relay message within 15 miles? One battery? If your battery craps out, no radio, no engine, 80 miles from home.
Find a fishing buddy with a bigger boat or go with a buddy boat at a minimum. Have a handheld VHF, and lots of safety equipment. Lots of people have done it but it doesn't mean its wise.
Now 80 miles. Wtf that is suicidal. No way you or anyone else runs out 80 miles in that 20 something year old 20ft rig. Crazy talk. Get real.
50 miles is dumb as hell. That cant be real. No one would do that without realizing the great danger. I certainly would not brag about it.
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