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I challenged the Evinrude Plane Truth Challenge

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I challenged the Evinrude Plane Truth Challenge

Old 04-26-2017, 06:30 AM
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this is going to be a loong thread...
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:31 AM
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There is no relevant difference in gear ratio if they are achieving the same rpm when run as twins. you have to consider not only the lower unit gear ratio but the prop pitch to determine the ultimate gear ratio. a 1.87 with a 17" prop is close to a 2.17 with a 19" prop. So, 17p on Yamaha, 19p on Evinrude, run both full throttle and get 5600 rpm you have the proper prop for each in that twin set up. now, one engine wont start, so you have to get home on the other. thats what this test tell you. the yamaha doesnt have enough low end torque to spin up the prop to get on plane.

what this proves is that the Yamaha 200 is a pretty weak 200, which we all kind of knew anyway. Not a bad engine, just not strong for its rated power.
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by captbone View Post
This is also part of the cleaver distraction. You focus on the 15 inch props not being normally run as twin. But the test clearly focuses on the engines being run as singles where as they would never run 18/19pitch props when running one. Evinrude would void your warranty for lugging their engine like that. You should not/could not run the engine home like that. They do so in the test to simply show the torque which is due to the huge difference in gear ratios mainly.

I am not disputing that a 2 stroke produces more torque but this test is unfair due to the gear ratio advantage and propping. They try to pretend they give the Yamaha an advantage by reducing prop size but they did not go far enough.
To go far enough would mean that they would have had to hang a Yamaha 150 on the transom, and not the 200. One Yam 4 stroke 150 on a 6,500 lb boat? Good luck.
You are correct though.. This is demonstration of torque. Nothing more.
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:35 AM
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yawwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnn
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Whaler27 View Post
Your are right, neither motor was propped correctly as a single. Why would you prop a twin motor as a single on a boat with twins?

What the test demonstrates is that if you lost one motor of your twins for whatever reason, that in the case of the Yamaha's max speed home is 9 to 10 MPH and in the case of the Evinrude max speed home is 27 MPH. The test just demonstrates the difference in the torque and power curve of the two motor types. You could put an Optimax 150 or a Yamaha HPDI 150 on the transom next to the F200 and you'd get similar results.
This!
BWP
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:51 AM
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This has the look and feel of an Evinrude sponsored test. It is a torque demonstration, and the torque curve of a 2S is known to be fatter than a 4S. It doesn't show that the Yam 200 is a weak 200...since the Yam never gets the opportunity to get anywhere near it's rated HP (which occurs somewhere above 5K rpms, I am sure).

So it proves what most already knew, that a 2S has more low end torque than a 4S. I wonder how a similar test using other 2S engines against the 4S Yam....for example an Optimax, or an older Johnson, or even a Yamaha 2S, would end up?

The testers and Evinrude had to know that this test would show the 2S to be torquier.....
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:52 AM
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Both the Tidewater 252 and the Sea Hunt 25 Gamefish will plane and run with only 1 Yamaha F150 in the water.

I don't know about other brands but I have driven both of those boats.

Last edited by THT Mod 11; 04-26-2017 at 10:03 AM. Reason: removed insulting comment
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by 6104696 View Post

The testers and Evinrude had to know that this test would show the 2S to be torquier.....
The facility looks like the Ralph Evinrude Testing Center in Stuart, FL.
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by captbone View Post
You will never see this test against the 200hp Suzuki with their 2.50 gear ratio. I think you will agree the result would be very different.

Gear ratio plays a very important part. Propping is not linear to gear ratio. A lower gear ratio has more leeway compared to a taller ratio which this test exploits.

I have said my 2 cents. Agree to disagree.
I'm going to agree to disagree. Gear ratios cannot makeup for a lack of torque at the power head without giving up something else. There is no free lunch. If gear ratios could solve all lack of torque problems, Ford & Chevy would be putting Honda Civic motors under the hood and using a transmission to fix the lack of torque problem.
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:10 AM
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this is great, it shows you that if you blow a lower unit you are idling to the hill with the yamaha and if you have an evinrude your planning off and heading to hill.
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by BassnBays View Post
We went as low as an 18" pitch with the Yamaha, anything lower in pitch would have allowed the Yamaha to hit the rev limiter while running both engines out to the test area.
I think the point is, that neither engine was set up to run in a single application (the basis for the comparison), in which case neither engine's performance is being optimized and naturally the lower gear ratio motor is heavily favored.

Idle out if over revving is a concern.
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:12 AM
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Yamaha wins the beauty contest.
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by manitunc View Post
There is no relevant difference in gear ratio if they are achieving the same rpm when run as twins. you have to consider not only the lower unit gear ratio but the prop pitch to determine the ultimate gear ratio. a 1.87 with a 17" prop is close to a 2.17 with a 19" prop. So, 17p on Yamaha, 19p on Evinrude, run both full throttle and get 5600 rpm you have the proper prop for each in that twin set up. now, one engine wont start, so you have to get home on the other. thats what this test tell you. the yamaha doesnt have enough low end torque to spin up the prop to get on plane.

what this proves is that the Yamaha 200 is a pretty weak 200, which we all kind of knew anyway. Not a bad engine, just not strong for its rated power.
Actually for them to be propped to an equal top end speed the g2 needs a 20-21 pitch. this has been argued extensively in the past. go try the numbers on your favorite slip calculator.

as for the rest. yes a 2 stroke makes more torque at low rpm. duh.
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed'sMarineSuperstor View Post

Both the Tidewater 252 and the Sea Hunt 25 Gamefish will plane and run with only 1 Yamaha F150 in the water.

I don't know about other brands but I have driven both of those boats.

Post #36 Nailed it......

Last edited by THT Mod 11; 04-26-2017 at 10:05 AM. Reason: removed comment about an edited reply
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Whaler27 View Post
I'm going to agree to disagree. Gear ratios cannot makeup for a lack of torque at the power head without giving up something else. There is no free lunch. If gear ratios could solve all lack of torque problems, Ford & Chevy would be putting Honda Civic motors under the hood and using a transmission to fix the lack of torque problem.
There certainly are tradeoffs. Top speed, responsiveness, hole shot can be a few of them. Gear ratios can make up for a lack of torque but the issue then becomes rotation speed. This test was focusing solely on torque alone hence why it was designed around positives of the Evinrude with the lower gear ratio. You will very rarely see a Suzuki on a bassboat because the lower ratio becomes a big handicap.

With a low enough gear ratio you make 600lb of torque come from a 5hp Briggs and Stratton but it would be at less then 50rpm. Early ships over 100ft long sometimes had 300hp total but the torque was massive due to the gear ratio. To use your Ford and Chevy example, a new F250 could have more HP compared to a Peterbilt 359 but in a showcase of torque gear ratio makes all the difference.
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Whaler27 View Post
I'm going to agree to disagree. Gear ratios cannot makeup for a lack of torque at the power head without giving up something else. There is no free lunch. If gear ratios could solve all lack of torque problems, Ford & Chevy would be putting Honda Civic motors under the hood and using a transmission to fix the lack of torque problem.

Cars do exactly that. for the express purpose of staying near the rpm of that particular engines peak power production.

in something like an i4 outboard lower gear ratios help out the engine in an area of the rpm band where it has low torque and by the time it is at high rpm where they have more torque , it is easier for it to swing the larger pitch props the higher gear ratio requires.
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by BassnBays View Post
My years as a Boating Editor have allowed me to test every major brand of outboard motor from 25 to 350 horsepower, so naturally when I saw the original Evinrude Plane Truth Challenge; I had a lot of questions. Basically, was the test fair? After speaking with Evinrude, they allowed me to conduct my own test on the same boat they used in the first Plane Truth Challenge video. We ran different styles and pitches of props, even swapped the engines to either side of the transom. Check out my results:

https://youtu.be/VwVlAClS9Bg
This is an independent video funded and filmed by Evinrude??? The flow, editing, phrasing and even the fonts used are the almost identical to the other evinrude "challenge" videos . . . almost like you used the same production company
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by BigShrimpin View Post
These tests show pretty clearly that the Evinrude has more torque at lower RPM's, but who powers a 25ft 6200lb boat with a single 150 or 200 and a 19pitch prop? (that's just stooooooopid) I wouldn't expect either one to plane. I guess the test was suppose to simulate what might happen if one engine breaks down????

either way the g2 is impressive. The mercury 150 four stroke actually has more torque than the ETEC 150 up to 2500rpm.



Originally Posted by Classic25 View Post
You missed the both engines operating section.. 15" would have the Yamaha way under propped
WHY would you prop a boat for twins and then test the performance of a single engine?
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Old 04-26-2017, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by BigShrimpin View Post
I don't believe this in an independent video. The flow, editing, phrasing and even the fonts used are the almost identical to the other evinrude "challenge" videos . . . almost like you used the same production company
I have no idea who Evinrude used to produce the original video, I never asked. This new video was shot and edited by the crew at BoatTEST.com. They have all of the camera equipment and editing capabilities that I don't have. Plus, if you're ever seen any boat test done by BoatTEST.com, they call it like it is. Their tests aren't swayed by advertising dollars.
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Old 04-26-2017, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by captbone View Post
There certainly are tradeoffs. Top speed, responsiveness, hole shot can be a few of them. Gear ratios can make up for a lack of torque but the issue then becomes rotation speed. This test was focusing solely on torque alone hence why it was designed around positives of the Evinrude with the lower gear ratio. You will very rarely see a Suzuki on a bassboat because the lower ratio becomes a big handicap.

With a low enough gear ratio you make 600lb of torque come from a 5hp Briggs and Stratton but it would be at less then 50rpm. Early ships over 100ft long sometimes had 300hp total but the torque was massive due to the gear ratio. To use your Ford and Chevy example, a new F250 could have more HP compared to a Peterbilt 359 but in a showcase of torque gear ratio makes all the difference.
A gear ratio can never make up for a torque deficit at the crank shaft. If I have 100 lb ft at 3000 RPM at the crank shaft of a first motor and 80 lb ft at 3000 RPM at crank of a second motor, I can set gear ratios that produce the same torque at the prop shaft but the RPM will be different. The gear box doesn't make torque. No such thing as a free lunch.

Evinrude has been running these side by side tests for the last 15 years or so. First between the 3.3L V6 F225 (2:1 ratio) and the 3.3L V6 Ficht 225 (1.85:1 ratio), then the E-TEC 225 G1 (1.85:1) against the F225 (2:1 ratio) and then the E-TEC 150 G1 (1.85:1 ratio) against the F150 (2:1 ratio). The results in all of those tests were the same, the Yamaha struggled to put the boat on plane. The ratio advantage the Yamaha had didn't help. This is just more of the same.
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