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The new compmillennia 39 cat

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Old 04-23-2015, 11:32 AM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by Coquille View Post
I'd like a quote on a 39 with the 200 yamahas.
You could click on "Otseg" and send an email with your needs and use. Ray had very specific requirements and this new boat is built exactly to his specification. In general I thought he ticked most of the boxes, however we have a great deal of flexibility in ongoing builds.
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Old 04-24-2015, 01:16 PM
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Its interesting how this boat has evolved. The journey started with the guy who did all of our Egret advertising and wanted a 27 cat with twin 250 ETEC's to replace his 30' Cobra Cat lost to a hurricane. With twin saltwater 250 Yamaha's the Cobra would run 89 mph, with the T top. The length of boat he wanted was constrained by his dock. Naysayers will say its not a rough water boat but Dan Upton who introduced both Fountain and Donzi to build tournament fishing boats told me he had a Cobra Cat race pass the SKA fleet in the Gulf in the roughest conditions he had every fished. The problem the Cobra had was construction related and was evident when Dan re-passed the cobra coming back in. The Cobra was dragging one engine in the water behind the boat attached to the transom which ripped off. :-)

I sketched up the new boat. Fortunately my art department had the right color crayon for Bahama waters.

I am still wondering how the boat we are now building stretched 12 feet longer and three feet wider.
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Old 04-25-2015, 05:58 AM
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Pictured are structural hull bulkheads under the bag but not infused. Console coming together and the cockpit sole getting laid out on the vacuum mold. The white composite part behind is the raised deck with storage hatches to the hull and free wheeling reel windlass. Its a bit mind boggling the deck area of the new boat. The last two photos are the cockpit sole from Jassbys 27' "828" being infused and fitted to the hull.

The entire 27' Compmillennia 828 catamaran would fit inside of the cockpit of the new 39 "1188" with room to walk around it. I was joking with Ray that the entire review of the Solid Gold dancers could lay out across the casting deck. Now I think you could fit the Rockettes aft behind the console too!
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Old 04-25-2015, 06:08 AM
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I would love to find one of those Cobra Cat CC's. Unfortunately most of them are beat and battered.

Avalon
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Old 04-25-2015, 07:14 AM
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Pretty much a major project to refit if you find one. At best you might call the original construction a wee bit "agricultural" compared to what we have available today. They were fast though, I spent a lot of time analyzing them and the frontal area was very small. from the side profile it looks like a bullet and the console was narrow. Notice the angle of the wind screen. Aero becomes a pretty big deal at those speeds.
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Old 04-25-2015, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Otseg View Post
Pretty much a major project to refit if you find one. At best you might call the original construction a wee bit "agricultural" compared to what we have available today. They were fast though, I spent a lot of time analyzing them and the frontal area was very small. from the side profile it looks like a bullet and the console was narrow. Notice the angle of the wind screen. Aero becomes a pretty big deal at those speeds.
everywhere you look...glossy resin, huh jim...
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Old 04-25-2015, 08:22 AM
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11,750 pounds how? Bare hull, deck & console? Complete boat minus power? As a turn-key boat, or?
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Old 04-25-2015, 11:50 AM
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We determined the weight of the boat by calculating all of the laminate plus the engines, equpiment, fuel etc. The 39 is 10% longer than when that number was calculated so I am paying particular attention to every detail.

Another way to estimate the displacement is by applying the laws of similitude which say for a like design, the displacement increases by the cube of the length.

So a 39 foot "1188" model, divided by 27 foot "828" tells us that the new boat is 1.44 times longer than the 27. 1.44 cubed tells us that the displacement of the 39 will be a multiple of 2.98 more than the 27.

This is the weigh ticket of the 27 after a sea trial, and we did have motors installed! :-)

So 2.98 times 3540 lbs predicts the new boat will weigh 10,549 lbs.

Quite a lot of items are not three times heavier, like the engines which are 1.4 times heavier, and some things like the fuel system, twice as heavy, because we have more than twice the fuel capacity of the 27. Because Ray is a boat racer at heart, he has suffered and humored my groans when he talks about a place for 12 dive tanks etc. etc, but I understand we are not building a race boat and boys like their toys. While I truly enjoy building race boats I have to admit we are challenged and having alot of fun building this one.
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Old 04-25-2015, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by avalonandl View Post
I would love to find one of those Cobra Cat CC's. Unfortunately most of them are beat and battered.

Avalon
Got one down the canal from me with Yamaha 300s. Looks to be in great shape. But not for sale.
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Old 04-25-2015, 02:35 PM
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This mold / Table which is 20' x 80' is also Heated 165 degrees for their infusion - vacuum bagging - pre peg projects I expect it warms lunch while in use too.
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Old 04-25-2015, 07:19 PM
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how is the table made? I want to make something similar for making a deck for a couple projects.
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Old 04-26-2015, 07:31 AM
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It has a steel ladder frame with ten 8' x 20' foot zones leveled on the shop concrete floor, which supports 2 x 3" crenulated steel panels over 3" of Rock wool insulation. Then 1/2" PEX tubing serpentines the entire surface on 4 inch centers with 10 independently controlled zones. Then 3 " of concrete was poured over the tubing and screed using a pair of laser leveled rails running the 80' direction. We then sand blasted the surface and made an epoxy grout which was spread with a steel sweeper blade running on the tracks, to make the surface true. Then the surface was flow coated with epoxy/sanded five times to gain vacuum integrity and fairness. The PEX tubing distributes the heat from a 200,000 BTU re circulating boiler with a process controller.

By using the laser level, the table is flat. Using a water level the table would follow the curvature of the earth. Really.

General Dynamics has a vacuum mold from the DDG 1000 destroyer build, that was used to make panels as large as 60' x 120', but generally We don't suffer from Mold Envy.

A plywood deck framed with 1 x 12 spruce and covered with particle board or mdf will be sufficient for your needs. You can Formica it for a nice surface and vacuum integrity if you wish.

Last edited by Otseg; 04-26-2015 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 04-26-2015, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Otseg View Post
It has a steel ladder frame with ten 8' x 20' foot zones leveled on the shop concrete floor, which supports 2 x 3" crenulated steel panels over 3" of Rock wool insulation. Then 1/2" PEX tubing serpentines the entire surface on 4 inch centers with 10 independently controlled zones. Then 3 " of concrete was poured over the tubing and screed using a pair of laser leveled rails running the 80' direction. We then sand blasted the surface and made an epoxy grout which was spread with a steel sweeper blade running on the tracks, to make the surface true. Then the surface was flow coated with epoxy/sanded five times to gain vacuum integrity and fairness. The PEX tubing distributes the heat from a 200,000 BTU re circulating boiler with a process controller.

By using the laser level, the table is flat. Using a water level the table would follow the curvature of the earth. Really.

General Dynamics has a vacuum mold from the DDG 1000 destroyer build, that was used to make panels as large as 60' x 120', but generally We don't suffer from Mold Envy.

A plywood deck framed with 1 x 12 spruce and covered with particle board or mdf will be sufficient for your needs. You can Formica it for a nice surface and vacuum integrity if you wish.
That's kinda of what I was thinking. Whats the best way to attach the formica?
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Old 04-26-2015, 02:14 PM
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Contact cement. The really smelly solvent based kind. The grade of laminate you want is "thick" horizontal grade. Horizontal grade is tougher, designed for countertops, horizontal surfaces. The trick is to get a perfect glue spread, because thick spots will make the laminate wavy.

A bit of trivia.

"Mica" was the original laminate made by Westinghouse. Some of the guys split off and started a new company "Formica"

The name was derived from Formally and Mica.......Formica

We call that "In your face" nowadays.
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Old 04-26-2015, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Otseg View Post
Contact cement. The really smelly solvent based kind. The grade of laminate you want is "thick" horizontal grade. Horizontal grade is tougher, designed for countertops, horizontal surfaces. The trick is to get a perfect glue spread, because thick spots will make the laminate wavy.

A bit of trivia.

"Mica" was the original laminate made by Westinghouse. Some of the guys split off and started a new company "Formica"

The name was derived from Formally and Mica.......Formica

We call that "In your face" nowadays.
haha awesome thanks. Now I just need to figure out a jig for making my hatch molds....
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Old 04-27-2015, 04:46 AM
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Before the Internet, Sex and Boat Building were learned through word of mouth, book learning, trial and error, and mentoring from someone older and experienced if you hoped to become skilled some day. Now you can Google it and its on Youtube. Hatch and gutters for table molding is pretty basic if you want to email me your goal I can point you in the right direction.

That Paramount is a classic. They were built in a small warehouse West of I-95 in Dania near the FLL airport by Darryl Chancey. We became friends when I was doing some plug work for him and he was a Prince of a guy. We put many hours on a 21 with a carbureted Merc 200. One of my employees kids left a garden hose running in the boat and sunk it at the dock. Those 21 hatch gutters were not of my making!
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Old 04-27-2015, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Otseg View Post
Before the Internet, Sex and Boat Building were learned through word of mouth, book learning, trial and error, and mentoring from someone older and experienced if you hoped to become skilled some day. Now you can Google it and its on Youtube. Hatch and gutters for table molding is pretty basic if you want to email me your goal I can point you in the right direction.

That Paramount is a classic. They were built in a small warehouse West of I-95 in Dania near the FLL airport by Darryl Chancey. We became friends when I was doing some plug work for him and he was a Prince of a guy. We put many hours on a 21 with a carbureted Merc 200. One of my employees kids left a garden hose running in the boat and sunk it at the dock. Those 21 hatch gutters were not of my making!
Lol i love listening to all the old stories from back in the day and I think its awesome how pretty much everyone who had anything to do with boat building all knew each other back in the day. If you don't mind pointing a young gun whose eager to learn this art form in the right direction I would be unbelievably grateful. Its funny in some ways guys seems to guard these tips and tricks like they do their fishing spots haha I also really don't like how 90% of people in the repair business make repairs the same way these boats were built back in the 80's not using modern techniques or materials. That's what I want to change. The miles on Darryls old chopper gun must be VERY high lol
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Old 04-27-2015, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Otseg View Post
By using the laser level, the table is flat. Using a water level the table would follow the curvature of the earth. Really.
I really appreciate that you post details of this type of construction, which is a few leaps beyond most production boats. Please continue...

The radius of the earth is just under 4000 miles, or nearly 21 million feet. I calculate the camber over the 80' table to be about 5 ten-thousandths of an inch, for a flatness tolerance of half of that value, which is a good bit less than the thickness of one human hair. Is any other process within your shop accurate to within 2 or 3 orders of magnitude of that difference?

Along similar lines, the table heats the laminate from underneath as it is infused and cures. What kind of warpage do you see in a cured part from the temperature gradient from bottom to top? If you laid up a sandwich panel of the entire table size, how flat would it be when cured and the vacuum released?

Last edited by Matt Gent; 04-27-2015 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 04-27-2015, 11:43 AM
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Since its been 35 years since I had to navigate celestially and I was not that good reducing a sight back then. Regardless, Its not for me to argue your math. But........

When I was in Jr.High School my father was on the school board and being a graduate civil engineer and a surveyor for the Pennsylvania Railroad before the war he was tasked with contracting for the new school natatorium and pool. If he was building a pool he wanted a "fast pool" , meaning good for setting records. One of the criteria is that the gutter curbs are within 1/4" of the pool's water level to take away the resurgent bounce from the swimmers. The waves swimmers make roll into the gutter and keep the water calmer, ie; faster. All well, until they filled the pool and the curb at one end was above the other. The curbs were perfectly straight as the builder and my surveyor Dad confirmed using an engineering level. Yo Dad, the water is level, meaning level to the curvature of the earth. Fast pools for dummies is to fill the pool, mark the water height and set the curb tile following the curvature of the water.

When we are building a big boat you can get into trouble if you use a laser level and don't keep it at one end or another to establish your heights and keep it there. Setting up to build a 120' hull mold we experienced that thing exactly. To prove it to myself I set up our $10,000 laser level adjacent to one end of the building (180 ft) and shot the opposite wall. Then set up near the far wall and shot back. Marks did not line up by a significant measure. I want to say more than a 1/4", it was a long time ago. Maybe the world is flatter now. Does it matter for a 39 footer? Not at all. Who knows it could be faster!

You may make light of measuring to the width of a human hair, but a good boat builder will often work to to plus or minus a RCH. The Red ones being the finest guage.

I have not seen evidence of a differential cure on our table. In part because of the re circulating water and mass of the concrete. To date we have never seen a runaway exotherm, even with a laminate a 1/4" thick under 2 inch foam core. We also have a number of 12' x 50' insulating blankets covering the parts and a minimum of a 15 hr post cure. I think the heat for cure normalizes through out the part in that time.

Absolutely flat is a fleeting thing. The 2 3/8" glass/epoxy/H-80 cored bhds we made for a ship project in Abu Dhabi and erected on the vessel in the water dockside were perfectly flat once a day. In the morning they curved one way, and in the afternoon they curved the other way. We were bonding them together at night.

Last edited by Otseg; 04-27-2015 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 04-27-2015, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt Gent View Post
I really appreciate that you post details of this type of construction, which is a few leaps beyond most production boats. Please continue...

The radius of the earth is just under 4000 miles, or nearly 21 million feet. I calculate the camber over the 80' table to be about 5 ten-thousandths of an inch, for a flatness tolerance of half of that value, which is a good bit less than the thickness of one human hair. Is any other process within your shop accurate to within 2 or 3 orders of magnitude of that difference?

Along similar lines, the table heats the laminate from underneath as it is infused and cures. What kind of warpage do you see in a cured part from the temperature gradient from bottom to top? If you laid up a sandwich panel of the entire table size, how flat would it be when cured and the vacuum released?
more along the lines of 1/8" of an inch at 80ft.

So, in 5280ft/8inch drop = 5280ft/8" = 660ft for a 1" drop. So, 660ft/80ft give you a multiple of 8.25. Then 1" / 8.25 = .1212 of an inch. which is about 1/8ths of an inch.
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