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Wow.. Thw HMS Bounty went down overnight

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Wow.. Thw HMS Bounty went down overnight

Old 11-01-2012, 06:48 AM
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Having spent 31 years in the Navy and participated in a number of hurricane emergency sorties I can tell your from experience we never sailed into harms way. We would always move eastward to a point well seaward of Bermuda then when clear of the storm move south coming in behind it as it moved north. It appears the captain was trying to use the storm to exit it as fast as possible. He was on the west side using the storms wind pattern SW to S to SE to exit the storm in the southern quadrent as taught. Now how and why he got into extremis is open for discussion.

The other will card in this scenario is the gulf stream and its northward movement in this location. The waves would have been opposing it so the seas would have been very confused and large. I spent a lot of time in this operating area and have seen some wild and crazy stuff.

It's just a sad day for all.
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by SN00KERED View Post
Nobody is saying he's a victim; only that you don't need to be crass to be critical. I think fly hit it on the head with his quote about pilots. Very relevant. Every captain, even recreational captains, can relate to it. We do the best we can. I'm interested in learning from this tragedy, but not witnessing these people get assassinated on an internet forum.

But, in the end, I suppose nothing I say is going to make you and the others any classier in the way you speak about people you don't know, over events the facts of which you don't possess. I can only guess that it makes you guys feel better, or smarter or tougher to talk that way about people. So be it.
Yeah, that's it. It makes people "feel better, smarter, or tougher". Sorry buddy, that's just how some people talk. It has nothing to do with feeling better blah blah blah, it's just how we are. You're not one of them, that's cool. Others are, and that's cool too. Fact is, I don't think you wrote what you wrote to feel "better or smarter" than others, I think you were just speaking how you speak, but it'd be REAL easy for me to say the same about what you wrote, right?

To the plane analogy. It doesn't hold water. Ask Fly if he'd pilot a replica of the Wright Flyer, along with a underexperienced crew (if the plane could accommodate), into what forecasters were calling the largest storm ever to hit the US in 100 years, all so he could get to his next paid destination. Now we're talking apples to apples, but something tells my Fly, and his years of experience, wouldn't risk the lives of his crew on such an obviously foolish flight.
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:50 AM
  #103  
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From another thread.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/novasco...a-during-storm

This guy seems to know what he's talking about, and he said it's a "black and white" decision.
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:02 AM
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Im almost thinking the owners maybe had a part in this decision. You know they wanted this boat to make the next destination. They have not offered a lot of help publicly to the people that tried to save their ship. The only interest they have showed is that they are going to try and salvage the ship.
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:23 AM
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Default the Bounty tragedy . . .

FLY6584, Ranger88, Marketic:

I agree with each of you.

A tragedy certainly, but "Monday morning" quarterbacking the disaster will do nothing unless we can learn all of the circumstances leading to the captain's decision(s).

Years ago, I crewed on a 68' staysail schooner from Long Beach, CA to the Sea of Cortez in Mexico. We were anchored in Cabo San Lucas, BC and a strong chubasco (Mexican hurricane) blew in; caught us and about thirty other vessels at anchor.

Our skipper decided to "ride out" the storm in the anchorage. We put out three anchors: two 80# danforths and a 65# CQR. Each had over 100' of 1/2" BBB chain, 3/4" anchor line (800'/500'/500'). Had a seasoned crew of 8.

I learned the effects inertia has upon a full keeled, (we drew 8') wood-hulled vessel struggling against three anchor lines in 90 knots of wind. At the early stages of the storm (around 9pm) and 50 knots of wind we watched as other (unmanned) boats (ranging from 38' to 70') started to drift by us dragging their anchors towards the beach.

Around midnight, wind had increased to about 70 - 80 knots, wind was screaming so loud we had to shout even BELOW decks to be heard. We had just started our main engine to relieve the strain on our anchors; three of us went topside in safety harnesses, life jackets & full wetsuits attempting to steer the boat upwind towards our anchors. The main anchor line parted (the CQR) when a 30' swell broke on top of us.

Around 3am, our bilge started to fill with seawater when the combined effect of the swells, the anchors and everything else forced some of the caulking out of the hull seams near the bow. Despite this, somehow we made it through the night. In retrospect, all of us agreed that we should not have attempted to stay in the anchorage. Not only did the storm place an incredible strain on the crew and the boat, but while we were attempting to keep from straining the fittings on our boat, we had to literally "dodge" other boats which were dragging their anchors and drifting onto us . . . something we had overlooked in our pre-storm discussions. Twenty two boats were total losses on the beach. Six people died on the other boats.

From the pictures on this thread, I noticed the Bounty appeared to be "bare-poled" (no sails appeared to be set). I would have expected to see a "storm mainstaysail" set to give her steerageway running before a rear quartering tailwind. Nevertheless, if she was running before a following sea even at six knots there would be considerable strain on the hull seams. If they also lost their main engines, manual bailing to keep her afloat would have been almost impossible.

Thanks for your posts everyone. This is truly a tragedy. Let's wait to get all the details (or as many as we can) before we start pillorying the captain.

FLY, you are absolutely correct about command decisions and their inherent responsibilities.

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Old 11-01-2012, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by yachtjim View Post
I wonder who will get the contract to make a replica of the replica of the bounty for the movie that will no doubt be soon to follow. Sad story for sure.
Would one even be made? I don't recall a movie being made about the loss of the Pride of Baltimore. Two books for will certianly be written. One by an armchair quarterback and another by an actual participant that will be to set the record straight after the first one.
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by jzima View Post
From another thread.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/novasco...a-during-storm

This guy seems to know what he's talking about, and he said it's a "black and white" decision.
He pretty much sums it up. No reason to go. For those that aren't aware the bounty replica was powered by two John Deere 375 hp engines. Length on deck was 120' The 180' length would be including the bowsprit. Draft was only 13' Not a large ship by any means. Even after departing they still could have ducked into a river off of the Chesapeake and been fine.

More info here : http://www.tallshipbounty.org/the-ship/statistics.php

Part of the reason the Navy puts to sea when a storm is approaching is so they don't get trapped in the harbor. Also most of their ships can run much faster than the hurricane will travel. There are plenty of large ships that remain tied up in the harbor during hurricanes and are usually fine.

I blame the owner and captain. Most likely the captain's experience worked against him. The ship had been through relatively rough seas before with no problem. It looked like the storm was going to stay at category one and as long as he skirted it they wouldn't be going through seas much worse than they had seen before. In this case they caught the brunt of it at the wrong place.

Bad gamble to take. Sad for the needless loss of life.
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by aubv View Post
Considering the enormous size of this storm and it's predicted path there where really only 2 choices, find safe harbor or sail ESE, then turn south and then SW staying well to the east, as the storm moved north and then west. I equat this to a small boat dealing with regular ferry routes. While passing in front of a ferry, even at a very safe distance you want to be in the projected path for the shortest period of time but only in a manor that should a problem arise, action can be taken to avoid being run over. Those actions might include using enough speed to have momentum carry your boat out of the path of an on coming ferry and a radio to warn the Ferry capt. of a problem. Kind of tough to drift out of the path of a 900 mile diameter storm and i'm not sure what VHF channel is used to hail hurricanes. So since no such options existed, I don't understand the Captain picking a path in front of a hurricane. In the case of a ferry, there is always another choice pass behind it.
there were several other choices. dont leave harbor, go up river or in a bay etc. he chose the worst one.
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:44 AM
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I keep hearing "duck into Chesapeake bay but the reality is that if they didn't take the Delaware bay exit and go 100 miles out of their way into the north bay the next entrance into the Chesapeake is Hampton Roads. At that point I would have ducked into Norfolk and see if the navy would let them use one of those big piers they tie up carriers to. That little boat would be on the lee side of the wind in there since the piers are at least 30 feet high.
A beeline to Norfolk from Connecticut would have been a far wiser choice for them, particularly if they had just left a day or two earlier. Hole up there and wait for the storm to clear.
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by gfretwell View Post
I keep hearing "duck into Chesapeake bay but the reality is that if they didn't take the Delaware bay exit and go 100 miles out of their way into the north bay the next entrance into the Chesapeake is Hampton Roads. At that point I would have ducked into Norfolk and see if the navy would let them use one of those big piers they tie up carriers to. That little boat would be on the lee side of the wind in there since the piers are at least 30 feet high.
A beeline to Norfolk from Connecticut would have been a far wiser choice for them, particularly if they had just left a day or two earlier. Hole up there and wait for the storm to clear.
I think most people meant "duck into the Chesapeake" as going into the bay near Hampton roads/Norfolk. Not through the C&D canal. Once in the bay there were hundreds of places they could have tied up without incident including Hampton Roads. It wasn't predicted to be as much of a wind event down there so they really didn't need to find anything extraordinary. We get thunderstorms that strong on a fairly regular basis. Bottom line though is that they shouldn't have left in the first place.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:58 AM
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It is interesting to see History repeat itself. My father did one of the last Windjammer cruises aboard the Fantome. They met a similar fate in 98 in Hurricane Mitch. Instead of canceling they started a cruise and dropped passengers then tried to hide from the storm but did not get far enough. there is a book about it titled The Ship and the Storm.
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:25 PM
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We the living have the right to speak ill of the dead, since we can and they can't speak back.

I'll withold judgement until the official inquiry brings out all of the factors leading up to this tragic event.

Reminds me of a very similar event which occurred in my family some years back, had there been a THT then I wonder what would have been said of Captain Lars?

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/199...ing-ship-trine
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:45 PM
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Just looking at their track and extrapolating that to a direct course to Norfolk, they would be at the dock while the storm was still south of the 30th parallel, 400 miles away.
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jzima View Post
Yeah, that's it. It makes people "feel better, smarter, or tougher". Sorry buddy, that's just how some people talk. It has nothing to do with feeling better blah blah blah, it's just how we are. You're not one of them, that's cool. Others are, and that's cool too. Fact is, I don't think you wrote what you wrote to feel "better or smarter" than others, I think you were just speaking how you speak, but it'd be REAL easy for me to say the same about what you wrote, right?

To the plane analogy. It doesn't hold water. Ask Fly if he'd pilot a replica of the Wright Flyer, along with a underexperienced crew (if the plane could accommodate), into what forecasters were calling the largest storm ever to hit the US in 100 years, all so he could get to his next paid destination. Now we're talking apples to apples, but something tells my Fly, and his years of experience, wouldn't risk the lives of his crew on such an obviously foolish flight.
It sounds like you feel very proud and proper to wrap your views about people involved in something tragic in asinine insults. That's entirely your right. Go for it. It doesn't make what you say decent or any less tasteless. That's the only point I was trying to make. I'm sorry if it hurt your feelings. Feel free to call me whatever you'd like.

And by the way, you may very well be right in your view that the captain made a very serious blunder in the decisions he made. I've been very interested in hearing the different views on the options he had and how it could have been handled. Productive stuff. The name calling -- not so much.

I think it's all tragic no matter what way you cut it. My prayers go out to all of them. Mother Nature was already completely unforgiving and cruel to them. I just don't feel the need to pile on.
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SN00KERED View Post
It sounds like you feel very proud and proper to wrap your views about people involved in something tragic in asinine insults. That's entirely your right. Go for it. It doesn't make what you say decent or any less tasteless. That's the only point I was trying to make. I'm sorry if it hurt your feelings. Feel free to call me whatever you'd like.

And by the way, you may very well be right in your view that the captain made a very serious blunder in the decisions he made. I've been very interested in hearing the different views on the options he had and how it could have been handled. Productive stuff. The name calling -- not so much.

I think it's all tragic no matter what way you cut it. My prayers go out to all of them. Mother Nature was already completely unforgiving and cruel to them. I just don't feel the need to pile on.
Calling a stupid decision stupid isn't an asinine insult, it's reality. Nothing you said hurt my feelings, I just found the hypocrisy of your post a bit funny is all.

There are lots of types of people in this world. Some like hockey. Some like football. Some like cricket. That doesn't make any sport better than another though. It's all about personal preferences. You prefer to be what you consider 'decent and tasteful'. That's cool man. I just disagree with you. I don't think it's decent to not hold a dead guy whose stupid decision cost someone else their life accountable. If I hear someone ate a bunch of cyanide after reading that it would kill them, but they wanted to disprove the label, I'm gonna call that a stupid decision. I don't need to wait to hear what other factors were involved in it, and the fact that he's dead, doesn't make the decision any less stupid.

So you go right ahead and wait to hear all the details about a guy who decided to take a wooden boat into a 900 mile wide hurricane. Eventually you'll come to the same conclusion. It was a stupid decision. Take your time though, and enjoy the cricket match.
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:40 PM
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We chase hurricanes..

at 10:47 on interview

#!

Man was a nut.
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:50 PM
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Not quite verbatim but .. "stay down in the southeast quadrant, when it stops you stop, you don't want to get in front of it."
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Old 11-02-2012, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by aubv View Post
Not quite verbatim but .. "stay down in the southeast quadrant, when it stops you stop, you don't want to get in front of it."
Which makes his path according to the screen capture from their FB page all that more difficult to understand. If you look at where they were on the 27th and then again on the 28th, it looks like there was SOMETHING that made him decide to make the westerly turn in front of the storm.
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Old 11-02-2012, 05:31 AM
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I've been a captain for a while and "When in doubt, Chicken Out" meaning don't do it. The captain had to have some doubt about making it with a Hurricane out there. Sad story, as is all the destruction Sandy caused on land.
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Old 11-02-2012, 05:38 AM
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Wow, just wow! At first I thought he was just joking but after watching it a couple times I believe he was serious. Chasing hurricanes? MAYBE in a boat designed for the conditions (if it's even possible) and built a little more sturdy but certainly not an underpowered sailboat! Unfortunately he's not the first nor likely the last to pay the ultimate price for a lack of respect for Mother Ocean and her power. They announced the calcellation of the search for him this morning. R.I.P. Capt.
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