Notices

How long can I go without service

Old 05-12-2011, 10:21 AM
  #21  
aln
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: West America
Posts: 3,642
Default

Here is the chart from Suzuki. You can make your own second guesses.
Attached Images  
aln is offline  
Old 05-12-2011, 10:44 AM
  #22  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,430
Default

Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
i dont care who you are...that is just plain funny...i'd share that with the customers ive had with sludged up engines but they might believe it and try to sue me....

the load on a boat engine is incredible compared to that of an automobile...lets do some simple math to help the slower among us...we put 200 hp on a 1500 pound boat and it tops out on a good day at 50 mph...we put 200 hp in a 2300 pound car and it hits the governor at 118 mph before it runs out of steam....what can we conclude from this information that might lead us to believe that the oil might be under a little bit of a strain trying to keep things cool and well lubricated in one of our engines?...

the load of a boat is greater not because of a weight difference, its because it doesn't ride on bearings....

im sorry, but maybe you should learn more about oil and what it is and how it works before you talk about sludge, this is not a quaker state commercial...

sludge is caused by carbon build up and deposits from the fuel, not the oil.... and fyi oil does not turn into sludge when it is not mixed with other contaminants...
nexxxt214 is offline  
Old 05-12-2011, 10:49 AM
  #23  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,430
Default

Originally Posted by Nativetroy1 View Post
Just because oil doesn't break down for 15000 miles doesnt mean it's not contaminated with fuel, carbon, water, metal from normal engine wear. Once the filter is running in bypass then you keep wending that through the motor. I'd check the oil, and use it over the weekend then get it serviced.
yes it does. thats exactly what it means... especially after i said with NO contamination...

and the only point you made was that if dont change your oil filter you will have an issue, nothing about oil....

normal wear on a motor does not create metal, if you have metal in your oil, you have a problem....

fuel should not mix with oil, unless there is an issue...

water? so you HAVE to have a blown head gasket and even then it would be coolant, not water...

Lastly, carbon build up comes from fuel deposits, not oil... if you dont have any issues with the motor, you can run the oil for a long time with ZERO issues...
nexxxt214 is offline  
Old 05-12-2011, 10:51 AM
  #24  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: South Florida
Posts: 9,140
Default

Check the oil and use the boat. Unless for some reason the oil is unusually low/high or is pitch black, go enjoy your weekend.

I maintain my engine by the book, but the lower unit lube and gear oil both look brand new when I drain them. I would not let an extra 10 hours of use ruin a nice weekend.
Flot is offline  
Old 05-12-2011, 11:06 AM
  #25  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Shinnecock
Posts: 332
Default

Sorry guys but I'm with nexxxt214 on this one. Car and boat engines are not comparable BUT the recommendations from the manufacturer can be compared. Changing the oil every 3,000 miles on a car is absolutely unnecessary and yet it is recommended. Why? In my opinion, the only reason is to make money. The same thing applies to boat engines. A 100 hour service is fine at 200 hours easy.
chefrish is offline  
Old 05-12-2011, 11:13 AM
  #26  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
THT sponsor
 
triumphrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Masaryktown, Fla.
Posts: 17,185
Default

Originally Posted by TrickyRick View Post
So nobody has made a comment about the impeller? I thought that was a major component changed out at the 100 hr check? From what I read the impeller replacement is about the only thing on a 100 hr check it is difficult to do yourself. Am I wrong or should it last 200-300-400 hours too?

When I bought my rig over two years ago I tore both of the motors down for extensive service. I had a hell of a time removing the lower units. Once off, there was no indication that the impellers had ever been changed. The woodruff keys were literally welded to the driveshaft. I was of the impresiion that I was doing the first impeller/waterpump service. At the time, the F115's were 7 yrs old and had 340 hrs on them. They were still pumping fine and had a good piss stream. You can draw your own conclusions......

Many posts here of folks not pulling these LU's for up to 300 hrs.

What would make an Etec so special that it can take 3 yrs or 300 hrs before first major service??
triumphrick is offline  
Old 05-12-2011, 11:20 AM
  #27  
aln
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: West America
Posts: 3,642
Default

Originally Posted by nexxxt214 View Post
the load of a boat is greater not because of a weight difference, its because it doesn't ride on bearings....

im sorry, but maybe you should learn more about oil and what it is and how it works before you talk about sludge, this is not a quaker state commercial...

sludge is caused by carbon build up and deposits from the fuel, not the oil.... and fyi oil does not turn into sludge when it is not mixed with other contaminants...
I think what nexxxt214 was alluding to was the duty cycle of a car engine vs a boat engine. In the case of the boat it is significantly higher than a car for a variety of reasons. The difference in stichion is among them.
aln is offline  
Old 05-12-2011, 11:25 AM
  #28  
aln
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: West America
Posts: 3,642
Default

Originally Posted by nexxxt214 View Post
yes it does. thats exactly what it means... especially after i said with NO contamination...

and the only point you made was that if dont change your oil filter you will have an issue, nothing about oil....

normal wear on a motor does not create metal, if you have metal in your oil, you have a problem....

fuel should not mix with oil, unless there is an issue...

water? so you HAVE to have a blown head gasket and even then it would be coolant, not water...

Lastly, carbon build up comes from fuel deposits, not oil... if you dont have any issues with the motor, you can run the oil for a long time with ZERO issues...
There will be contamination as there is piston blowby into the crankcase that is captured and returned to the intake to be reburned. Otherwise you would create a high pressure area in the crankcase that would quickly cause all sorts of problems In a new engine it is slight, in an older motor it increases substantially and contaminates the crankcase oil with unburned volatiles that ruin the lubricity of the oil.
aln is offline  
Old 05-12-2011, 11:27 AM
  #29  
aln
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: West America
Posts: 3,642
Default

Originally Posted by chefrish View Post
Sorry guys but I'm with nexxxt214 on this one. Car and boat engines are not comparable BUT the recommendations from the manufacturer can be compared. Changing the oil every 3,000 miles on a car is absolutely unnecessary and yet it is recommended. Why? In my opinion, the only reason is to make money. The same thing applies to boat engines. A 100 hour service is fine at 200 hours easy.
I believe this. I also believe it is in the interests of both oil producers and IC motor producers to recommend oil changes sooner rather than later. It's like the sun coming up in the east and water flows downhill.
aln is offline  
Old 05-12-2011, 11:43 AM
  #30  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,430
Default

Originally Posted by aln View Post
There will be contamination as there is piston blowby into the crankcase that is captured and returned to the intake to be reburned. Otherwise you would create a high pressure area in the crankcase that would quickly cause all sorts of problems In a new engine it is slight, in an older motor it increases substantially and contaminates the crankcase oil with unburned volatiles that ruin the lubricity of the oil.
i agree to a certain extent. once a ring seats fully, its done, something has to give for it to move...the only way for deposits to enter the crankcase from on top of the piston would be that there was too large of a clearance or the cyl wall has to be scorned otherwise it would exit out of the head...

"blow by" has nothing nothing to do with the rings or crankcase-
the term has to do with the amount of air thats getting around the valves, and the standard is that less then 5% blow by means your head is "ok"

when older cars burn oil or have contamination its due to small failures that are on major parts...most of the time if a car is burning oil, it means that there is an oil leak in the head of the motor, or that there is a spun bearing
nexxxt214 is offline  
Old 05-12-2011, 12:14 PM
  #31  
aln
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: West America
Posts: 3,642
Default

We basically agree. If oil is not subject to water intrusion, particulate or volatile migration past the rings or overheated, it will last a very long time. In a gearcase, this is often the scenario, in an IC engine, it is less likely.
aln is offline  
Old 05-12-2011, 02:38 PM
  #32  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: englewood, florida
Posts: 5,329
Default

Originally Posted by nexxxt214 View Post
the load of a boat is greater not because of a weight difference, its because it doesn't ride on bearings....

im sorry, but maybe you should learn more about oil and what it is and how it works before you talk about sludge, this is not a quaker state commercial...

sludge is caused by carbon build up and deposits from the fuel, not the oil.... and fyi oil does not turn into sludge when it is not mixed with other contaminants...
wow...this is going to be work...

i wasnt comparing weight and you are correct...the load is because one rides on wheels and bearings while the other has to push water out of the way...the comparison was similar horsepower and what the vehicles were capable of to demonstrate the difference in strain on a marine engine compared to an automobile engine...a comparison you brought up...

well put about sludge...in case you werent paying attention to yourself while you were enjoying typing your witty response the contaminants are exactly what the oil is being subject to in use all the time...and even during non-use...everything you mentioned is by-products of combustion and ends up in the oil due to blow-by and cylinder wall deposits along with heat and moisture intrusion again from combustion and condensation...thus creating those interesting deposits in our engines called varnish and sludge...there are also acids created that can etch parts during static periods...parts like bearings (including rollers and races when used) and other surfaces...its a complicated mess of possible problems that are easily preventable with regular maintenance...

as for learning about oil and how it works i am college educated in that along with over 30 years in the automotive service field...i am guessing you have me trumped somewhere because you are pretty confident...regardless of education i bring quite a bit of experience to the table as an engine rebuilding specialist (along with transmission and diferentials) for my first 16 years in the business...with some fleets who would trust nobody but me with their engines...you gain quite a bit of insight into lubricants and cause and effect when youre inside engines everyday...but you know that already....

so fire away..and i dont do commercials...you have to be biased for that...i believe there are a lot of good products out there...just not a lot of people smart enough to know their limitations and using less than good judgement when making recommendations...but i do agree with the old fram ads...you can pay me now or pay me later...

your court...

Last edited by bladenbullet; 05-12-2011 at 02:53 PM.
bladenbullet is offline  
Old 05-12-2011, 02:51 PM
  #33  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: englewood, florida
Posts: 5,329
Default

Originally Posted by nexxxt214 View Post
i agree to a certain extent. once a ring seats fully, its done, something has to give for it to move...the only way for deposits to enter the crankcase from on top of the piston would be that there was too large of a clearance or the cyl wall has to be scorned otherwise it would exit out of the head...

"blow by" has nothing nothing to do with the rings or crankcase-the term has to do with the amount of air thats getting around the valves, and the standard is that less then 5% blow by means your head is "ok"

when older cars burn oil or have contamination its due to small failures that are on major parts...most of the time if a car is burning oil, it means that there is an oil leak in the head of the motor, or that there is a spun bearing
blow-by has everything to do with the rings and is a fact of life in an engine...the rings never fully seal a cylinder and piston but do a damned fine job considering what is expected of them...they also have those pesky little gaps at their ends that allow gases carrying contaminants to scoot by and end up in the oil...part of the oils job is to suspend these contaminants and allow larger solids to be captured in the filter while surrounding the smaller particles and chemicals and trying to render them harmless until the oil additives that accomplish this are overcome by numbers or broken down to the point where they cannot be as effective as necessary...the the contaminants begin leaving deposits in the engine and or working their way into expensive parts and compromising the lubriactaion they receive...

your valve discussion and leakage testing is just that...leakage...not blow-by...blow-by is what gets past the rings...leakage is the inability of rings, valves and gaskets to seal the combustion chamber...the imperfect sealing of the rings is where the allowable amount of leakage comes from...as the other components are a pretty positive seal....

burning oil is not caused by spun bearings...they have no bearing (sorry...no pun intended) on oil useage at all...the rings, cylinder condition and valve seals in a 4 stroke engine control oil useage...even a perfectly running engine with no hard part mechanical problems can have oil burning concerns if the breather system is not operating properly or valve seals have been compromised...there does not have to be a mechanical failure to burn oil...
bladenbullet is offline  
Old 05-12-2011, 02:57 PM
  #34  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: englewood, florida
Posts: 5,329
Default

Originally Posted by chefrish View Post
Sorry guys but I'm with nexxxt214 on this one. Car and boat engines are not comparable BUT the recommendations from the manufacturer can be compared. Changing the oil every 3,000 miles on a car is absolutely unnecessary and yet it is recommended. Why? In my opinion, the only reason is to make money. The same thing applies to boat engines. A 100 hour service is fine at 200 hours easy.
car manufacturers stopped recommending 3000 mile intervals years ago...the industry standard now is 7500-15000 miles depending on manufacturer and types of oil used...many have oil monitoring systems that use either complicated algorythms or actual visual systems to determine when oil should be changed depending on the type of use or actual degredation the oil is subject to...

awful lot of experts using failed logic and less than accurate information here...
bladenbullet is offline  
Old 05-12-2011, 03:05 PM
  #35  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: englewood, florida
Posts: 5,329
Default

for the non-believers in the blow-by subject heres an experiment for you...or ask someone you know who does rebuild engines...they will probably be familiar with this...

take a 4 stroke cylinder head and invert it...pour a liquid into the combustion chamber to fill it and observe it (valves shut)...the liquid will remain in the combustion chamber pretty much indefinately as the valves do a real good job of sealing...

now pour a liquid into the cylinder on top of the piston...let me know what happens to it...becuase everything ive learned over quite a few years is being challenges here by some people with some very inaccurate information and no interest in the longevity of the engine they are making recommendations for and i'm sure they arent gouing to pony up and help out anyone who takes those recommendations and experiences a failure....

i'm pretty sure you know the answer already...i'm just hoping the mental exercise will stimulate the thought processes enough to realize a lot of what you have written is wrong and isnt helpful in this thread...but it may have seemed to e a good way to throw an insult at me...which i gladly accept...because it just reinforces my point when its all settled and done...
bladenbullet is offline  
Old 05-12-2011, 03:14 PM
  #36  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: englewood, florida
Posts: 5,329
Default

regarding the manufacturers creating maintenance intervals that are over the top...lets analyze that for a moment...

lets say you build a product that ou know will be subjected to its fair amount of abuse, be expected to outlast just about every other product that is produced that actually does something, and cost thousands of dollars to repair or replace when something goes wrong with it...and youre expected to stand behind it for longer than any other product with or without moving parts that normally sits on a shelf in a climate controlled atmosphere most of the time or only ows the lawn once a week for a half hour...

hmmmmmmmmm....

what kind of research are you going to do and what kind of recommendations are you going to make that will work for everyone...protecting their investment, your product and your reputation...?

another hmmmmmm....

easy to talk dirty about someone with more resonsibility than you....we're not talking about handing out another egg mcmuffin if the first one isnt done right or tastes bad or replacing a chinese widget with a new one...we're talking about a major expense and possible even more major inconvenience or possibly life threatening consequence...

lets ponder that for a while and think about how you would feel if your customers didnt take your advice....and ive seen my share of that..along with the outcomes...

but you know more than i do about it and ive been told i need to go back to school and study....

thanks for the advice....tha t was advice right?...just like the advice youre offerering this guy....

well played...
bladenbullet is offline  
Old 05-12-2011, 03:22 PM
  #37  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 158
Default

Recommended service intervals are just that... Recommended. So there's no point in arguing about your opinion. And I'm sure that though an outboard is not a auto engine, you could change the intervals based on use. Look at most trucks. 100k for trans fluid intervals. But go tow your boat every weekend and then expect a extended service plan to cover it at say 75k when it burns up. Suddenly you find yourself listed under severe duty use.... So like I said, check the oil and get on the water. All my other points, which I apparently I'm wrong on, have been explained. There isnt a perfectly clean running engine yet....
Nativetroy1 is offline  
Old 05-12-2011, 03:48 PM
  #38  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 558
Default

Originally Posted by JyamahaR View Post
I purchased a new 250 yamaha four stroke in august last year and now have 360 hours. I have been getting it service every 100 hours but my service center cant get me in for another week. Right now Im at 132 hours since my last service. How much more can I go before I should be worried. I wanted to use the boat a few times over the weekend?
Thanks
Jake
just check the oil and use it for another week until your service
Top_Cat is offline  
Old 05-12-2011, 03:57 PM
  #39  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,430
Default

Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
for the non-believers in the blow-by subject heres an experiment for you...or ask someone you know who does rebuild engines...they will probably be familiar with this...

take a 4 stroke cylinder head and invert it...pour a liquid into the combustion chamber to fill it and observe it (valves shut)...the liquid will remain in the combustion chamber pretty much indefinately as the valves do a real good job of sealing...

now pour a liquid into the cylinder on top of the piston...let me know what happens to it...becuase everything ive learned over quite a few years is being challenges here by some people with some very inaccurate information and no interest in the longevity of the engine they are making recommendations for and i'm sure they arent gouing to pony up and help out anyone who takes those recommendations and experiences a failure....

i'm pretty sure you know the answer already...i'm just hoping the mental exercise will stimulate the thought processes enough to realize a lot of what you have written is wrong and isnt helpful in this thread...but it may have seemed to e a good way to throw an insult at me...which i gladly accept...because it just reinforces my point when its all settled and done...

man, much of what you said is 100% about you

blow by has to do with the amount of air coming out of the intake side of the head....
JUST THE WAY THAT THE TERM IS USED...................

you can wear out your rings but blow by has to do with the amount of air that is leaking out of the head. no question about it. its how you can tell weather you have a head issue or pisting/ring issue without breaking down the motor....

you seem to know a lot about motors, but your terminology is wrong....plain and simple....

but you can go change your oil in your boat at every 100 hours on the dot, because your going to damage the motor otherwise...
nexxxt214 is offline  
Old 05-12-2011, 04:12 PM
  #40  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,430
Default

Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
blow-by has everything to do with the rings and is a fact of life in an engine...the rings never fully seal a cylinder and piston but do a damned fine job considering what is expected of them...they also have those pesky little gaps at their ends that allow gases carrying contaminants to scoot by and end up in the oil...part of the oils job is to suspend these contaminants and allow larger solids to be captured in the filter while surrounding the smaller particles and chemicals and trying to render them harmless until the oil additives that accomplish this are overcome by numbers or broken down to the point where they cannot be as effective as necessary...the the contaminants begin leaving deposits in the engine and or working their way into expensive parts and compromising the lubriactaion they receive...

your valve discussion and leakage testing is just that...leakage...not blow-by...blow-by is what gets past the rings...leakage is the inability of rings, valves and gaskets to seal the combustion chamber...the imperfect sealing of the rings is where the allowable amount of leakage comes from...as the other components are a pretty positive seal....

burning oil is not caused by spun bearings...they have no bearing (sorry...no pun intended) on oil useage at all...the rings, cylinder condition and valve seals in a 4 stroke engine control oil useage...even a perfectly running engine with no hard part mechanical problems can have oil burning concerns if the breather system is not operating properly or valve seals have been compromised...there does not have to be a mechanical failure to burn oil...
ok, your wrong about oil burn and spun bearings.... any way you want to look at it... you can have massive amounts of oil burn from a spun rod bearing... even though there is no bearing per say, the clamp spins around the crank causes heat, burns the oil up, creating crankcase pressure...
on four strokes and cars, yes most of the problems come from the head, but i consider a valve seal part of a mechanic part and there fore mechanical failure, i would say a catesprophic failure would be breaking a rod, spinning a bearing, having valve clap....
i wouldnt call a distributor problem a mechanical failure...

and your 100% wrong about what is the biggest reason for what determines the longevity of the motor.... its the TUNE... when you buy a porsche, honda, ferrari, ford... you have such a crap tune its not even funny... why? because even though you can hope to manufacture all motors the exact same, they are all different, because of these clearances you refer to they all need to be tuned individually to run perfect...

example.... i built a race car in 2003, 4 cyl, 803 whp.... on the same dyno 7 years later and just about 215,000 miles, 802whp... same rpm, same power band, same psi...same turbo, but brand new.... motor was essentially the same as when i built it compression wise, blow by wise.... this car ran 451whp on 15 psi daily driving on 93 oct, beat the shit out of the car.... why did it last that long?

i perfected a street tune for the way i drove the car, that didnt send too much fuel into the cyl at any time, avg 34mpg city....this was a car that ran leaded c16 almost every weekend for years, so talk about deposits in my fuel....

but to end this.... your right.... you win....
nexxxt214 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread