The Hull Truth - Boating and Fishing Forum

Go Back   >
Search


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-21-2009, 06:09 AM   #81
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 3,719
Default

two questions regarding the survey:

1. how full was the tank at the time of the survey?
2. Did you fill up the tank after the survey

If yes to #2, then that is why fumes were not detected at the time of the survey. Once underway ...the rocking motion of the boat caused the fuel to leak.

Still does not excuse the surveyor from missing the corroded tank if it was viewable from an access hatch.
Shin-Dig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 06:16 AM   #82
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Fort Myers Beach, FL, USA
Posts: 2,144
Default

I'm not defending the original surveyor either...

But you only asked for a survey because your insurance company requested it.

If they hadn't done that, it doesn't sound too likely that you would have.

Then the same leak would have occurred, and who would you have to blame?

Last edited by ocnslr; 07-21-2009 at 06:32 AM.
ocnslr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 07:04 AM   #83
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 24
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnslr View Post
I'm not defending the original surveyor either...

But you only asked for a survey because your insurance company requested it.

If they hadn't done that, it doesn't sound too likely that you would have.

Then the same leak would have occurred, and who would you have to blame?
I totally agree with you, but I did pay for the survey, and my expectations were that he was compitent. Yes the tanks were half full and underway this happened... I'm told by the marina and another surveyor that this was visible and should have been caught.. Even the surveyor that origonally did the survey said he does not know how he missed it...
jrat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 07:06 AM   #84
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 3,719
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrat View Post
I totally agree with you, but I did pay for the survey, and my expectations were that he was compitent. Yes the tanks were half full and underway this happened... I'm told by the marina and another surveyor that this was visible and should have been caught.. Even the surveyor that origonally did the survey said he does not know how he missed it...
Ask him for a refund of the survey cost.

Your grounds should be that the insurance company insist that the boat be re-surveyed by a different surveyor because his survey was faulty.
Shin-Dig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 07:25 AM   #85
Admirals ClubCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 6,884
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by makosteve66 View Post
Not trying to beat this to death. But what if 1 month passed between the survey and the incident? 2? 3? at what point would the surveyor NOT be negligent. Ask your insurance company that? It sounds like you had a sudden catastrophic failure of the tank. I may have not been noticeable by an outside visible inspection. Did the insurance company set parameters for the survey? Did they set specific guidelines or parameters for the survey?

To me, it sounds like the beef you have is with the insurance company - and I AM an insurance adjuster
YOu pay insurance companies BUT.... do not kid yourself... THEY ARE NOT ON YOUR SIDE!!!!! NEVER!!!!neither on boats, homes, nothing....

Insurance adjustors ARE THE BEST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN to you on any insurance claim.....
After 2 insurance claims (first without IA and second with IA) I will never call my ins co. again for a claim... I will let my IA do it for me....sit down and relax.. the best money ever spend,

and I'M NOT an INSURANCE ADJUSTOR....

Just my 2 cents
emudryj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 07:32 AM   #86
Admirals Club
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Suffolk, Va.
Posts: 16,152
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

First off just asking if the guy has insurance is not good enough. You need to obtain a Ceritficate Of Insurance by his insurance co. with a current date showing that it was just produced. Don't take an older one that shows he has coverage by his effective and coverages dates because if they fail to pay their premium those dates are useless.
fishingfun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 07:42 AM   #87
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: mashpee
Posts: 145
Default

I think it's funnys someone said " don't put your safety in the hands of a stranger". OK, I'll never fly again, or take a bus or a taxi certainly wouldn't go fishing on someone elses boat!! Definately won't eat out, not going to put my safety in someone elses hands. Never see a Doctor again. We trust people everyday to be professional and do thier job and when they don't it costs us. Anyone in business who doesn't have insurance errors and emissions or something similiar is a joke.
mhff34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 07:47 AM   #88
Admirals Club
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: St. Augustine, FL.
Posts: 1,154
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger88 View Post
Thas the guy, mang...He runs these company. Ease called Baywatch Towing...

z3axv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 08:02 AM   #89
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Palm City, FL
Posts: 320
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrat View Post
Thanks to all who have replied with a posotive outlook, I appreciate it, and will probably take the tow company to court, they had my credit card before they even hooked the boat up, and the told me the rate was 250.00 hr. shure surprised me when the bill came to 8,400.00 thanks again to all of you for your suggestions.
Credit Card, issue a chargeback, call your credit card company.
Capt Armchair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 08:24 AM   #90
Admirals ClubCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 6,884
Default

this is what I think... for what is worth...
There's some important pieces of info missing (like insurance policy, coverage, survey agreement, towing contract, etc...)to do a really educated opinion so I will only do an educated guess...

Can't really say if the surveyor did his job, because we do not know if the damage on the affected area of the tank was visible during survey... If it would had been that obvious, as the second surveyor said, you could had probably seen it before, when changing a bilge pump or something... it's hard not to have to look in the bilge often enough to spot something like this...
The failure may had been sudden but the damage had been going on for a while to get to that point, so either it was not THAT obvious or you probably would have seen it before.

Ins co and tow co.. are taking you for a ride.....
When the told you over the phone about the $250 per hour charge, they may have thought it was another regular tow, but when they realized it was a insurance claim.. they said "let's dig in deeper, since the ins co has deeper pockets"
Ins co, does what all of them do... try to keep you away from your money as much as they can, gambling with your ignorance, lack of information, etc.
So they deny your claim, they sit and wait...

Now you have two problems.... the repair and the tow bill and new survey...
Out of all of those the first survey is the least of your problems. I agree with the idea that it would be on the first surveyor best interest to refund you the fee for the survey.
BUT if the Ins. Co. did not gave you any "approved" list of survey companies and they took your original survey as good, how in hell can they come back saying I want another one??? what warranty do you have that if something else fails after the second survey, they are not going to want a third one????

just my best guess...
emudryj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 09:04 AM   #91
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Watch Hill, RI
Posts: 170
Default

Most marine surveyors are not very good. Much talked about on all the boating forums. My experience with marine surveyors has been very disappointing. My best approach is to use specific technicians for individual parts of the boat. For example, I use a fiberglass repair specialist or manufacturer to inspect the hull and deck. I use an outboard mechanic specializing in the brand of motor being inspected. You get the picture. This gives me the specialized knowledge of all parts of the boat that a generalist marine surveyor can not.

Sorry form your trouble. Better luck next time.
striped bass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 09:07 AM   #92
Admirals Club
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Suffolk, Va.
Posts: 16,152
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

I'd say this thread is an good example of a pic. is worth a thousand words.
fishingfun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2009, 03:19 AM   #93
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 328
Default

did surveyor make you sign wavier before he did his survey ?
jon martini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2009, 05:36 AM   #94
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: The wilds of Michigan
Posts: 752
Default

Whether the surveyor did his job properly, or not, is moot - the only thing he is on the hook for is what you paid him, chump change...
What is in play here is the cost of the tow and who pays for the repairs...
Given that the ins co has thrown you under the bus you need to start playing hard ball...
At this point your only recourse is a scumbag lawyer... I hate their guts but they do have a purpose in situations like this... Shop around and find one that is a true junkyard dog, that every cop and every judge in town would run him down in the road if they could... This the guy/gal you need... And tell that scumbag you want him to make so much noise with formal complaints to the insurance commissioner of your state, filing damage suits for a zillion dollars for emotional distress, and demanding show cause orders and restraining orders from the Federal Court ( Admiralty law ) that you are front page news the next day... The instant that happens everyone will start rethinking their positions knowing they are going to be held up to public scrutiny... And yes, the surveyor will get swept up in this, but that is his problem...

In my local area there is one scumbag I will hire if I ever have a problem... He actually drives a car with bullet resistant glass and armored doors - he says it is to protect him from the cops... His most renowned action was the time the court clerk stood up and started chanting, "Hear ye, hear ye the Honorable Judge xxxx . . . etc. " and the scumbag jumped up, slammed his briefcase down on the table so hard it flew open and shouted, "I object!"... His previously rejected motions for both a delay of trial and a change of venue was allowed after that...

denny-o
denny-o is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2009, 05:45 AM   #95
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: New Port Richey, Florida
Posts: 2,478
Default

Replacing a fuel tank that has corroded due to age has nothing to do with an insurance claim. There is no potential insurance claim here, other than to the extent of towing coverage, if any, under the policy. If there had been fuel leakage into the water insurance would have covered the cleanup-if there was pollution liability coverage included.
tobnpr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2009, 06:24 AM   #96
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: washington d.c.
Posts: 330
Default

i m not sure if it was more painful reading your initial post or many of the replies....

a couple of points and a couple of suggestions -

1. alan roby and/or allied marine surveyors likely have insurance.
2. the insurance company cannot hold you responsible for negligent survey conducted by an accredited surveyor
3. insurance companies typically do not like to willingly pay
4. you need to document EVERYTHING if you havent already. save the tank that was removed. take pictures. write dates/times down. document all phone calls/emails/letters with surveyor and insurance company
5. find a lawyer who handles contract disputes/insurance coverage. you probably dont need a maritime lawyer.
6. call the credit card company and dispute the tow charge
7. pull out your ins policy and READ it....
8. stop whining that you got screwed and take some action. you have multiple avenues of recourse here including getting the insurance company to cover the cost of the tow, arguing that the tow was not salvage since they quoted you a rate and left you on the boat, suing Roby AND Allied Marine Surveyors for negligence, etc.....

do NOT hire the local personal injury attorney or the guy who with bulletproof glass because he gets criminals out of jail. You need to hire the "right" lawyer.

good luck
sclancy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2009, 06:38 AM   #97
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Little River, SC
Posts: 24
Default

Bad story.

Question. Why would anyone leave the dock without Towing Insurance?

The Survey did Not Guarantee anything, it was an inspection.

I agree, you need a Lawyer and go after the towing company.
Mcathcart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2009, 07:00 AM   #98
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location:
Posts: 3,389
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcathcart View Post
Bad story.

Question. Why would anyone leave the dock without Towing Insurance?
Good question, but if it was salvage it may not have helped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcathcart View Post
The Survey did Not Guarantee anything, it was an inspection.
So when you get a physical, have a lawyer review a contract, get a home inspected, get a land survey, etc etc, nobody is liable for screw ups?? Those are "just inspections" also. No?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcathcart View Post
I agree, you need a Lawyer and go after the towing company.
Probably, but I still dont see how his (the OPs) insurance company can get out of this.

Salvage companies always seem to bill a stupid amount and then negotiate a lower settlement (or it goes to court). They dont want his boat, so they are bluffing to some extent I bet.
DrJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2009, 07:31 AM   #99
Admirals Club
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Suffolk, Va.
Posts: 16,152
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by emudryj View Post
this is what I think... for what is worth...
There's some important pieces of info missing (like insurance policy, coverage, survey agreement, towing contract, etc...)to do a really educated opinion so I will only do an educated guess...

Can't really say if the surveyor did his job, because we do not know if the damage on the affected area of the tank was visible during survey... If it would had been that obvious, as the second surveyor said, you could had probably seen it before, when changing a bilge pump or something... it's hard not to have to look in the bilge often enough to spot something like this...
The failure may had been sudden but the damage had been going on for a while to get to that point, so either it was not THAT obvious or you probably would have seen it before.

Ins co and tow co.. are taking you for a ride.....
When the told you over the phone about the $250 per hour charge, they may have thought it was another regular tow, but when they realized it was a insurance claim.. they said "let's dig in deeper, since the ins co has deeper pockets"
Ins co, does what all of them do... try to keep you away from your money as much as they can, gambling with your ignorance, lack of information, etc.
So they deny your claim, they sit and wait...

Now you have two problems.... the repair and the tow bill and new survey...
Out of all of those the first survey is the least of your problems. I agree with the idea that it would be on the first surveyor best interest to refund you the fee for the survey.
BUT if the Ins. Co. did not gave you any "approved" list of survey companies and they took your original survey as good, how in hell can they come back saying I want another one??? what warranty do you have that if something else fails after the second survey, they are not going to want a third one????

just my best guess...
Please explain how a leaking gas tank is an ins. issue? A rusted out gas tank is not covered by ins. so paying a salvage recovery would not be covered by the policy. The only thing there would be if he carried towing under his policy and most only cover up to $1,000 if that.
fishingfun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2009, 08:11 AM   #100
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 7,944
Default

I've pulled numerous tanks out over the years, some old, some not so old. Some have had corrosion visible from the outside, a couple didn't. I don't know of a reliable way to tell how much life a tank has left. I don't think a cursory insurance survey is going to pick up a problem on a tank that wasn't leaking at the time of the inspection.

A pressure test on the tank could have been done, but what would have happened had the tank blown out under the test pressure? Would we be talking about the surveyor's liability for blowing out your perfectly good tank? I mean, after all, it wasn't leaking before the ham fisted surveyor got in there. And if the test came back with positive results (no leaks), would that tell you anything about the tank's integrity longterm?

As for the second inspector saying he would have picked it up, well, that's easy to say when the gas is coming out. Maybe corrosion or whatever would have been noted on the survey, but would he have told you there was going to be a leak in X number of days? And would you have done anything about it? All conjecture after the fact.

The tow bill is another story entirely. I don't know what the laws are but you can bet the tow company does. I hope this goes your way because I think this is a terrible way to treat someone. I don't know how they could call it salvage, especially since you remained on the boat the whole time, but like I said, I don't know the laws. It just seems completely wrong. I could understand an upcharge for a hazardous situation, etc. but even with something like that $8400 seems outrageous.
OReely is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:38 PM.


©2009 TheHullTruth.com

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.9.3.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.