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Part 7 - - - You will not believe today


Part 7 - - - You will not believe today

Old 04-21-2009, 06:33 AM
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[quote=kerno;2282193]The worst of it is that you never really know if they will fix it properly or just toss it back together for sale. If you know the bores are scored and the engine needs pistons and liners, what are the chances that an "in the block" rebuild will last?

1,000 hours of marine use can be roughly compared to about 100,000 miles of HD over the road use (long-haul trucking). My brother purchased a GMC Astro 95 tractor back in 1975, and put over 250,000 miles on its 8V71 before throwing in the towel. The engine was still running strong when he sold that truck in 1978.

Having been involved with Detroit Diesels for almost 32 years, I can vouch for the reliability of a proper in-frame rebuild, as that's all that we did at the company I worked for. Back in the day, our fleet consisted mostly mostly of older (pre 1976) 6V71 city buses, (post 1976) 8V71 transit coaches, and newer (post 1981) 6V92TA tranist and city buses. Our rebuilds were usually good for 150-250K miles, depending on the vehicle's route. Stop and go city driving all but guaranteed the shortest service life, as these engines like steady loads and rpms. Mid-rack fuel setting, good operating temps, and a nice (but not extreme) load on the bottom end, keep them happy and alive for a long time.

Now, someone mentioned non-linered engines. Well, that's not really economically feasible with 3,000 lbs + power plants in larger boats. The cost to rebuild an engine would then go through the roof (or, more precisely, out through the often expensive-to-remove and replace salon aft bulkhead ).

In short, cylinder liners make a mechanic's job easier, and allow boat owners to keep more of their hard-earned cash in their bank-accounts.

Last edited by Fubar512; 04-21-2009 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:43 AM
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Like most that have commented, there are too many great deals out there. It is a boat, meaning if you buy one with 0 issues you at least advert a few. Buying a boat with issues already prevalent just means that many more to deal with, on top of what goes wrong about everytime you use the dam things!

BTW, is the seller picking up your expenses??
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Old 04-21-2009, 07:07 AM
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This MAY be an oppurtunity for some really hard renegotiation. If youproceed, you get a price for the work then renegotiate the selling price. You pay your mechanic to do the work. The selller WILL tell the mechanics to do as little as possible (ie. cheap) to get her up and running. The mechani also knows the boat will be going to another area and he will never see it again even if it breaks down. Right now the boat isnt going anywhere. If the rest of this boat looks as good as you say then this could be a great opportunity to get it at the right price and have the rebuild done with a warranty in your name.
Or...run away
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Old 04-21-2009, 07:13 AM
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Gus, you need some tough love my friend. So far your experience validates that age old saying "bad things happen to good people" ...... it's time to get tough and ugly if you want to actually buy a boat from the nitwits that are trying sell their rides.
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Old 04-21-2009, 07:18 AM
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All DD's - 71's, 92's & 149's were engines with cylinder liners, designed to be overhauled in place - it just isn't feasible in many installations, especially commercial boats, to remove them.
6V-92's at 550hp or less were very good motors, usually giving 2,000 or more hours of service without issue - a little fuel inefficient at anythng but cruise speed, but nothing to avoid.
Seems like the boat suffers from a severe lack of upkeep. Has the other motor been fully inspected with a boroscope?
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Old 04-21-2009, 07:20 AM
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This still maybe the boat for you. Older engines need rebuilds just a fact of life. If you get the boat at a fair price based on its condition why walk away? Do the work the right way now and you will know what you have. Probably be a good education to learn the boat. Yea it may take a season to iron the bugs out but I have always thought it takes a season to learn/set up a boat. Bought my boat used, 18 monthts old with just over 100 hours on it and the first season was most problematic as it took a while to learn the ins and outs of the boat. This is a 22 foot single engine inboard.

Now if I had twin diesels, gen set, ACs wow it would probably take a couple years to learn it all.
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Old 04-21-2009, 07:24 AM
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I would be walking away...Seems like you have violated rule #1 of boat buying..DO NOT FALL IN LOVE WITH THE BOAT..Sounds like way too many varibles that could cost serious bucks to redo if repairs are not done properly.
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Old 04-21-2009, 07:39 AM
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Assuming the rest of the boat checks out ok and you can negotiate the cost of proper rebuilds into the price, there's no reason to walk away yet. I would not want the seller to "fix" what's wrong with the engine(s), as there is way too much incentive for him to bandaid the problems just long enough to make them your problems. If there are really only 300 hrs on the rebuilds, they were either done poorly or there is some major underlying problem. Either way, you don't really want to use his guy.
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Old 04-21-2009, 08:03 AM
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Gus.......followed your threads from day one, feel for ya man! Proposition for you....Years ago a golf instructor finally told me to buy a boat, as golf wouldn't be my bag. Therefore I have for sale a low hour set of golf clubs. Perfect condition (shaft on 7 Iron has been replaced, and is like new) Willing to sell cheap, and I'm only 15 hrs. away from your present location. You can bring Ed and trial them anytime. Probably be a lot less aggravating. No brokers involved!
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Old 04-21-2009, 08:39 AM
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Bruce, I love it!!!!
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:21 AM
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Been there done that. I stuck it out and ended up with a POS boat that looked great, but had severe problems everywhere I turned.

Walk away man, someone is trying to tell you something.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Demeanor View Post

You pay your mechanic to do the work. The selller WILL tell the mechanics to do as little as possible (ie. cheap) to get her up and running. The mechani also knows the boat will be going to another area and he will never see it again even if it breaks down.
That's what it is all about, right there.
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:41 AM
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Default rebuilds

I was told long ago, and relearned through a friend, a rebuild detroit means almost nothing. ONLY if you know the mech that did the work, KNOW the access to the engines, ARE SURE the parts that were put in new/reman'd/etc. then most anyone can claim to have rebuilt their detroit. It could be two cylinder kits and nothing else or it could have been rolled in mains, reman'd heads, rebuilt turbos'/pumps/ kits/ all the way. I know you've been told this before but i would figure in the cost to rebuild both mains in your negotiations (?1500-2500 per hole??) and add 10-15% to cover undiscovered problems. Then you will have reliable power and those 6-92's will last with good maintenance for 8-10 or more average years before you do it again. (AND sound bad ass to the marlin as well).
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Old 04-21-2009, 11:01 AM
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If you have the cash to spend now for two complete rebuilds or a repower, you may be able to do well in this deal. Don't be nice. Come back with an offer low enough to account for the extra work you know about, and you could end up with a layout you like, and reliable power for a long time. For your sake, I hope it ends up with that engine totaled. Then you will have some REAL bargaining power. Good luck!
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Old 04-21-2009, 12:38 PM
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Rebuilding 6V-92's, if done right, including new crank, bearings, liners and accessories (alternators, pumps, heat exchangers, exhaust manifolds & elbow); remanufactured turbos, heads and injectors; are just as good as new - that is a $20-22,000 overhaul per engine.
Gus, my friend, I would accept no less than a 100% overhaul; as band-aids will cost you a lot more over the long haul. Are you sure you really want this old boat?
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Old 04-21-2009, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Reel Obsession View Post

If it were not for bad luck, you would have no luck at all. You have been way to patient with the New Jersey brokers and owners, it's time to make a change. I am standing by waiting for your call so we can head to Florida and look at boats down there and hopefully change your luck!

Me too

Anyway if I could chime in here a minute fellas. In-framing a '92 is no big deal if you can get the pan off without lifting the engine. But if I may add some advise,

While she is open and the kits are being replaced, make sure two things are done; they are both cheap or free.

1) make sure they replace the rods. Reliabuilt rods are cheap, like under 20$ with core. This engine had water in the cylinders. YOU WANT NEW RODS---PERIOD.
2) After the new pistons and pins are fitted to the small end of the rods you must install the oil caps. These are flat disks that are driven into the pin hole with a golf ball or special round end drift. You then must use a mighty-vac and suction cup to vacuum test the seal.

If you fail in either respect the engine will smoke. I guarantee.

I could go on and on but these are two things that many mechanics will brush aside as not relevant. Trust me Gus, they are very relevant.

If done right I would trust that engine to get me home over any other moder diesel.

Oh yeah, pull one rear and one front main cap and check the bearings. Known weak link on big HP '92 series.
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Old 04-21-2009, 01:22 PM
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As others have posted, I would walk away from that boat. It's obviously been neglected. The low hours mean nothing in that situation. I'm sorry you are having so much trouble, and I thank you for sharing. All this talk about what it will take to fix it...why would you want to dive into that? And who knows what the next thing will be after this issue is resolved? No, I'd step away, or offer him about 1/2 of my initial offer just in case he's ready to give it away.

Maybe you should reconsider something like a Carolina Classic 28. They are really big for a 28 and they ride pretty darn well for any conditions up to stuff where I would want a 45+ ft. boat to tackle. I mention it bc there is a clean one FS right there in Pirates Cove. Owned by a full time resident. Has 250's which do not make it a rocket, but many are equipped that way. I think he is asking around 100k, but I know he really wants to sell it.

Last edited by itwonder; 04-23-2009 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 04-21-2009, 01:37 PM
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Well, here is the story from my perspective

#1 problem: We found evidence suggesting that the engine had been severely overheated and that the damage occured last year before the boat was put away for the winter . . . when the head was removed the cylinder was scored and it was obvious that there was serious overheating. . .

#2 problem: We found evidence suggesting that only one of the two engines had been completely overhauled . . . the listing stated that both engines had been completely major overhauled . . . the port engine was overhauled but we do not know how much actually went into it . . . the starboard engine had a new turbo (maybe reconditioned) and some new hoses

#3 problem: We asked for copies of the receipts of the engine overhaul (at least 3 times) that the owner said had been done . . . we never received copies of the receipts

#4 problem: The owner was advised that we were going to use a reputable national firm to do a diesel survey . . . then all of a sudden the owner said that the starboard engine needed a complete engine overhaul . . .

We met with the broker today and explained that we decided not to buy the boat and we fully explained why we came to the decision NOT TO BUY THE BOAT . . . the broker immediately returned my cheque
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Old 04-21-2009, 01:39 PM
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i think you should keep the boat you have, auggie
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Old 04-21-2009, 01:44 PM
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Checked the boat out this morning, had a chance to inspect the inboard bank fire deck and cylinders. The forward piston crown was almost totally free of carbon looking as if it had been steam cleaned, and the cylinder wall was shiny on both "throw" sides of the the liner, with no signs of a cross-hatch left in those areas. That's bad news, as coolant had obviously gotten into that cylinder while it was under load, and had flashed into super-heated steam, literally washing lubricating oil off the cylinder walls, and blasting the carbon out of the chamber and off the piston. There was also a tell tale "steam track" leading from that cylinder to one of the head-stud holes. A cooked liner O-ring was my quick and dirty diagnosis. That engine needs a complete overhaul, It also appeared as it were not recently rebuilt, as the owner had indicated.

Gus walked away, as it wasn't worth the time and aggravation after all that he'd been through.
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