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Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender

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Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender

Old 02-02-2008, 06:45 AM
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Default Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender

The recent post card mailing by World Cat claims they have a better ride and boats.

The cat mono debate goes on and on, and I would like to see World Cat actually back up this claim to end it with a real test guided by some conditions that are pertinent to a boat buyer, namely

Dollar for Dollar which boat will be more comfortable and less costly to operate ?


Glacier Bay went up against Regulator some time back doing this, but the results where more scientific than practical in a marketing sense. The compared a 26 mono against a 26 cat, but left the economics out of the picture.


So if World Cat wants to get Contender owners to buy a World Cat, then prove that the cat's ride is actually better than deep v monohulls on the same day, at the same speed, at the same boat cost, in a side by side tests using instuments to measure the total distance and speed of boat movements going through the sam seas at the same time.

A real Cat v/s Mono challenge would be this, IMO:

Equal boat cost-not length or width

Three side by side runs in 1-2' chop, 3-4' chop, then 5-6' chop

Instrumentation to measure
Beam Sea Rocking- speed and total movement
Following sea performance -speed/movement
Head sea performance- s/m

Fuel burns-range Test - but with each actually loaded out, running at 20, 30 and 40 mph cruise speeds in these seas with engines large enough for each hull to run at 3000 rpms at 30 and 4500-40 rms-mpg -both with professional captains-no throtlle men.

This would actually mean something to me, might end the debate, and the winner would sell more boats.

So World Cat- time to challenge Contender, right?
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Old 02-02-2008, 06:54 AM
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Default Re: Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender

There is no debate they are 2 TOTALLY DIFFERENT BOATS
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Old 02-02-2008, 07:00 AM
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Default Re: Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender

I saw a whole long thread on this on another site. Apparently a former Contender salesman took a Contender owner list and started all this without any approval from WC. The WC folks did not even know about it until it was brought to their attention by an WC owner and friend of the WC builders.
I'll see if I can dig up the thread at some point.
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Old 02-02-2008, 08:44 AM
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Default Re: Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender

They are two different boats....but when they make claims specifically "calling out" the other, the comparisons are on....they are both big water boats, multiple OB's, made to fish, upper tier, not so different in intent....I ran a WC 27te from pompano to nicholstown, bahamas, 150 miles one way, quite a boat....ran 35...1.8 mpg...comfortable ride, bow a bit tender, roomy, well finished...honda's were great....the several monos I've been in, up to 28 ft....all ran like monos...threw lots more spray...the more air they caught the harder the re-entry....once a mono/cat hits 32ft...pretty much even out...at 36 plus ft or more...the mono wins.....hard to identify measureable stats to crown one better overall....all boats ride "great" "smooth" "dry" in all conditions...just ask the owners....all of the above is IMO.....Mick
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Old 02-02-2008, 08:58 AM
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Default Re: Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender

I have no experience fishing or diving from a cat but I know 2 cat owners that went back to mono hull boats. They didn't like the distance from the deck to the water, the no lean turns, and other minor things related to basic layout. I can't remember all the specifics but it seems like there would be a lot more cat companies if they were so superior.

I once saw a cat try over and over to make a ramp approach with a 2-3 knot current passing by. I think the sharp hull sides don't let the water flow under the boat as easily as a mono hull.

There's pro's and con's to everything.
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Old 02-02-2008, 09:20 AM
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Default Re: Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender

Bullshipper,

I'd be interested in this type of comparison myself but I have a question for you - why is same price range part of your criteria? I would think that relative size and use would be more important. If you could quantify the ride quality with accelerometers and the like, then you could later consider cost. I think ride quality is only one of a huge set of criteria people use in a decision about what is the "best boat".

Of course, I think "ride quality" will never be looked at objectively. Emotion plays too big a part.
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Old 02-02-2008, 09:57 AM
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Default Re: Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender

Price was not the challange here it was JUST ride.

Now, on the other hand I will not compare my ride to either of those boats but I will tell ya this , I have had it outside [ no cover except motor ] for over 2 years now and ya know what,


It aint faded, cracked, chipped or have I had to wax it .




Alloy aint it a beautiful thing, www.aluminumalloyboats.com
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Old 02-02-2008, 10:18 AM
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Default Re: Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender

OReely - 2/2/2008 9:20 AM

Bullshipper,

I'd be interested in this type of comparison myself but I have a question for you - why is same price range part of your criteria? I would think that relative size and use would be more important. If you could quantify the ride quality with accelerometers and the like, then you could later consider cost. I think ride quality is only one of a huge set of criteria people use in a decision about what is the "best boat".

Of course, I think "ride quality" will never be looked at objectively. Emotion plays too big a part.
Cats as built, are more expensive to build, and cost more. The 27T that slickter is talking about are easily over $100K and will loose $50K in value in 2-3 years, so its an expensive boat to buy new. And I don't think that the tunnels on the cats will last near as long in total life as a mono hull built right.

Lots of people have targeted Contender and Regulator trying to chip away at their market with much cheaper products and if you compare the Cost of a WC to them, things really get lopsided.


For instance, you can buy a Comptition (old contender 25 open that 28' long with its bracket) or an Angler 26 with 24.5 degrees of deadrise for around $68K, when the smallest world cat 23 (22.5') is around $80K. Or I can buy a 24' Seachaser for $38K, so to me you are really paying a premium for the unubstantiated ride claim.

But there is no way that 1 human can test 2 boats accurately as he cannot be on 2 different boats hitting the same wave at the same time like 2 sets of instruments can.

So lets say that you find that a 23' cat has an equal ride to a 28', but that the 28 mono costs a lot less, has more passenger and weight carrying capacity, more deck space, is easier to put on a trailer, will depreciate less, get equal or better fuel capacity, and may have a lot more fishing amenities than found on most cats offered in the USA.

No brainer, end of debate, and this argument has been made to favor the mono hull by me, a cat fan.

WC makes a "ok" cat IMO, but has been stuck in a rut for years offering hulls that are still non planning heavy gas hogs that sneeze and roll sharply side to side. These boats have a looooong ways to go design wise IMO, and the contender design is so much more perfected, that it makes WC's claim un buyable.

So let's go head to head in a real test, dollar to dollar, and see which boat offers you the most for your budget over 5 years, like all automoibiles are analyized, and that will convince me.

Toyotas cost more to buy initially, but end up being cheaper than others after 5 years, and that is one of the main reasons why people are buying them in droves. And untill WC can make and prove the same argument, cats will continue to be a fraction of the potential market.
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Old 02-02-2008, 10:24 AM
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Default Re: Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender

welder - 2/2/2008 9:57 AM

Price was not the challange here it was JUST ride.

Now, on the other hand I will not compare my ride to either of those boats but I will tell ya this , I have had it outside [ no cover except motor ] for over 2 years now and ya know what,


It aint faded, cracked, chipped or have I had to wax it .




Alloy aint it a beautiful thing, www.aluminumalloyboats.com
That's right Lester, $$$ is always conviently left out of the comparision argument.

But lets say that I could supply you a 24' Alloy cat tank for $62K that got 4 mpg at a 40 mph crise, and got a better ride than your Pacific 23, that was actully documented by a third party, would that tempt you to take a sea trail?
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Old 02-02-2008, 10:38 AM
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Default Re: Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender

First, this won't prove anything. When you go by "seat of the pants", you get varying opinions. When you remove the human subjectivity and replace it with instruments, the same people will say, "Computers don't work because they can't feel like people can". It's a no-win scenario.

The fact is, a World Cat rides softer than a Contender. You really don't need a contest to prove that; you just need to be honest with yourself. Now that doesn't say a thing about how they handle, how they act squirrely in a beam sea or how they have hull slap when trolling slow in the right conditions. You are all grown men and should have learned by now that life is about compromises and so are boats.

I think the cat market is men over 45 years old because we're tired of getting the crap beat out of us. I've never been sore after a day in my cat but I've almost always been sore after a day in my Sea Pro.
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Old 02-02-2008, 10:56 AM
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Default Re: Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender



The fact is, a World Cat rides softer than a Contender. You really don't need a contest to prove that; you just need to be honest with yourself. Now that doesn't say a thing about how they handle, how they act squirrely in a beam sea or how they have hull slap when trolling slow in the right conditions. You are all grown men and should have learned by now that life is about compromises and so are boats.

I think the cat market is men over 45 years old because we're tired of getting the crap beat out of us. I've never been sore after a day in my cat but I've almost always been sore after a day in my Sea Pro.
[/QUOTE]

Copy Kat- my feelings exactly (I just turned 45, so maybe I got tired of being beat up a little earlier than some.) I am not nearly as fatigued after a long day on my WC230 as I am after a similar trip on a 25 ft. monohull.

I spoke to a charter captain recently who has had several Contenders, up to a 36', and also has a WC32 or 33. Asked to compare WC vs. Contender he said, "The simplest way I can put it is this- if you want to get there in 30 minutes, holding on the entire way, then buy the Contender. If you want to sit back, drink a cup of coffee on the way out, and get there in 45 minutes, buy the WC."

One of the boating mags tested for deceleration forces in a mono vs. cat in similar conditions using an accelerometer or similar instrumentation. The cat had lower peak g-forces, but the test was not very thorough, typical of the mainstream boat mags, which are basically ad vehicles.
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Old 02-02-2008, 11:20 AM
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Default Re: Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender

abfish - 2/2/2008 10:56 AM

One of the boating mags tested for deceleration forces in a mono vs. cat in similar conditions using an accelerometer or similar instrumentation. The cat had lower peak g-forces, but the test was not very thorough, typical of the mainstream boat mags, which are basically ad vehicles.
This was a GB26 against a Regulator26, and the only catagory won by the GB was head sea ride, and it was not by much.

It would not have won in a snap roll beam sea test, a following sea test, fuel economy, cruise speed test, no will it take as much weight, or has it sold as many boat.

So to me winning one out of 5 does not make the cat a clear winner.

And a WC33 or Contender36 is not in my budget, and in either, ride quality is not a problem.
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Old 02-02-2008, 11:42 AM
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Default Re: Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender

Bull,

You have somewhat of a vested interest in seeing WC fail, don't you? I mean you are trying to build and sell your own catamaran, right? All of a sudden you went from WC is a high quality boat to WC is an okay boat...sort of suspicious.

As for comparisons, why bother. People should go out and test drive whatever they like and can afford. Marketing is marketing and even the crappiest riding boat will advertis that it rides nice, so why get your panties in a twist about WC saying that ride softer than a Contender? No test by you, a magazine, or the Nobel search team is going to end the debate...too many intangible qualities in the various designs.

Lastly, I've been on several Contenders (and Yellowfins for that matter), and I don't get all the hype. They're okay boats, but there are quite a few boats out there that are better designed and built (and probably nearly as fast if that's your thing).

Personally, I think the whole concept of 35' plus center console boats with 3 and 4 OBs is stupid...if I'm going that big, I'll have diesels, a slower WOT speed, and a heck of a lot better ride than a 38-40' go fast center console. But I also understand that's what some guys want, so that's what they should buy.

Harry
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Old 02-02-2008, 02:25 PM
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Default Re: Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender

It would not have won in a snap roll beam sea test, a following sea test, fuel economy, cruise speed test, no will it take as much weight, or has it sold as many boat.

So to me winning one out of 5 does not make the cat a clear winner.
Bullshipper, are you quoting the Boating mag test results or are these your opinions?


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Old 02-02-2008, 02:52 PM
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Default Re: Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender

Interesting to say the least
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Old 02-02-2008, 03:31 PM
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Default Re: Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender

If you are going to compete the two boats try going through the waves to the port side of the boat in 4-6 or 6-8 and see if you want to jump out of the cat and into the contender. I would. Those boats (cat) are good for going through a head sea, not port or starb. Give that some thinking and try it for your self. I been on a 33t cat and was thinking about buying one since the is a brand new left over in lindenhurst Ny for 139000. Its a 2006 with twin 250 zukes on it. I would not take it for 100000.
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Old 02-02-2008, 03:41 PM
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Default Re: Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender

Bullshipper - 2/2/2008 12:24 PM

welder - 2/2/2008 9:57 AM

Price was not the challange here it was JUST ride.

Now, on the other hand I will not compare my ride to either of those boats but I will tell ya this , I have had it outside [ no cover except motor ] for over 2 years now and ya know what,


It aint faded, cracked, chipped or have I had to wax it .




Alloy aint it a beautiful thing, www.aluminumalloyboats.com
That's right Lester, $$$ is always conviently left out of the comparision argument.

But lets say that I could supply you a 24' Alloy cat tank for $62K that got 4 mpg at a 40 mph crise, and got a better ride than your Pacific 23, that was actully documented by a third party, would that tempt you to take a sea trail?
Bull , you can't do that to me , I'm still in LOVE with my Pacific 23.

But I would sea trail it , then try to figure out how to own 2 boats.

Now what kind of coin are we looking at on like a 27 Contender with some hot twins [ motors ].

Lester
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Old 02-02-2008, 04:10 PM
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Default Re: Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender

Harry Brosofsky - 2/2/2008 11:42 AM

Bull,

You have somewhat of a vested interest in seeing WC fail, don't you? I mean you are trying to build and sell your own catamaran, right? All of a sudden you went from WC is a high quality boat to WC is an okay boat...sort of suspicious.

As for comparisons, why bother. People should go out and test drive whatever they like and can afford. Marketing is marketing and even the crappiest riding boat will advertis that it rides nice, so why get your panties in a twist about WC saying that ride softer than a Contender? No test by you, a magazine, or the Nobel search team is going to end the debate...too many intangible qualities in the various designs.

Lastly, I've been on several Contenders (and Yellowfins for that matter), and I don't get all the hype. They're okay boats, but there are quite a few boats out there that are better designed and built (and probably nearly as fast if that's your thing).

Personally, I think the whole concept of 35' plus center console boats with 3 and 4 OBs is stupid...if I'm going that big, I'll have diesels, a slower WOT speed, and a heck of a lot better ride than a 38-40' go fast center console. But I also understand that's what some guys want, so that's what they should buy.

Harry
Great to hear from you Harry, thanks for chimming in.

I have never produced or sold a cat so any interest I have in this is miniscule. And you owning a WC33 shows you made a wise desicion to go with the queen of their fleet way back, and there are still not many models that can touch your hull.

Besides the 23 and the 33, WC's other sizes are touchy to drive to say the least, but they keep using the same molds and making their claims while other platforms, like the contender, have changed designs to handle heavier motor, add some creature comforts and maintain their quality even after switching factory locations and work forces.

The catamaran compitition is laughable compared to the mono market and I think that they have gotten very lax as they just compete against each other. The cats on the markets have several problems that they do not seem to want to address, or invest in effective solutions. In the 22-30' field these are the things that are wrong, and are solvable.

Fuel economy
Pound per pound in a narrow width, monos get better fuel milage, even though the cat guys started on their premise that there is less resistance in a cat. Now that fuel in the marina has tripled in price, this has become a significant factor in offshore boating, at least where I live. What has GB, WC, Twin Vee done to combat this- have they offered a planning hull bottom to double their milage? Please, ring my doorbell when someone over there wakes up.

Sneezing
With flat motor wells behind the transom, tunnel height is limited to the shaft length on motors, and untill you get up to 225's you are stuck with 25" of shaft. Slope those motor wells down, and you gain 7 inches or more tunnel height and or rienforcement over the span, and when water is not blocking off 100% of the rear of tunnel, sneezing is eliminated.

Increasing tunnel height also reduces turbulence in the tunnel which improves gas economy and leaves a cleaner wake for trolling. But what do they say about this- oh we have the vector hull that lifts the hulls on a foam cloud to get a more comfortable ride- oh bull, out and out bull marketing lingo as as this just burns more gas to create foam on a low boat, and puts the motors dangerously close to injesting water being forced out of the funnel tunnel to keep the boat lower to the water.

Height over the water
Jeez, if you want something low to the water, how about making swim platforms platforms, ,inventing the step, buying a ladder, adding a foot to your gaff or even adding side doors for loading gear at the dock or fish and people where they do not have to contend with propellers?

The brackets pushed farther back also let you raise your motors, creating less drag, again, stuff that has been done for years with monos.

Cabin placement
Having brackets give you over hanging weight in the rear that will lift the bow. Tell me, who in the US offers a sportcabin cat where you can sit up front for good visibility and have a huge rear deack for fishing like on a Parker? What is the point of having a soft riding bow if you don't get to sit farther forward?

Following Sea Ride
Having a planning hull with a higher tunnel allows you to balance the boat more like a mono with more weight aft. This keeps the nose up and keeps the cat from taking green water over the bow, even at slow spped.
What do they suggest? -- huge permatrims to produce lift running the engines at inefficient angles that again, just burn more fuel-same ol same ol right?

Head Sea Ride
Planning hulls need to put their nose down to get a better ride. This requires moving the motors a little off center so that you can mount trim tabs. Ah trim tabs, novel concept.

Snap roll
The only way to overcome this is more beam, and here cats shine as they don't push more water with more beam like a monohull. But has anyone offered a 12'-14' beam that can be delivered once to a marina and kept in the water or on a lift? Why does every cat have to be orientated towards a trailer?

I could go on and on about their lack of on board creature comforts, styling, storage space, and cabin space cabin space that is considered the norm for average monohulls, so this challenge bs kinda ticked me off.

IMO, its time for WC and others to make some needed changes if they really want to compete, and then, cats will rule.

If they don't, guys like Billy Freeman will eat their lunch, even with their prototypes.
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Old 02-02-2008, 05:24 PM
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Default Re: Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender

Bullshipper - 2/2/2008 4:10 PM

Harry Brosofsky - 2/2/2008 11:42 AM

Bull,

You have somewhat of a vested interest in seeing WC fail, don't you? I mean you are trying to build and sell your own catamaran, right? All of a sudden you went from WC is a high quality boat to WC is an okay boat...sort of suspicious.

As for comparisons, why bother. People should go out and test drive whatever they like and can afford. Marketing is marketing and even the crappiest riding boat will advertis that it rides nice, so why get your panties in a twist about WC saying that ride softer than a Contender? No test by you, a magazine, or the Nobel search team is going to end the debate...too many intangible qualities in the various designs.

Lastly, I've been on several Contenders (and Yellowfins for that matter), and I don't get all the hype. They're okay boats, but there are quite a few boats out there that are better designed and built (and probably nearly as fast if that's your thing).

Personally, I think the whole concept of 35' plus center console boats with 3 and 4 OBs is stupid...if I'm going that big, I'll have diesels, a slower WOT speed, and a heck of a lot better ride than a 38-40' go fast center console. But I also understand that's what some guys want, so that's what they should buy.

Harry
Great to hear from you Harry, thanks for chimming in.

I have never produced or sold a cat so any interest I have in this is miniscule. And you owning a WC33 shows you made a wise desicion to go with the queen of their fleet way back, and there are still not many models that can touch your hull.

Besides the 23 and the 33, WC's other sizes are touchy to drive to say the least, but they keep using the same molds and making their claims while other platforms, like the contender, have changed designs to handle heavier motor, add some creature comforts and maintain their quality even after switching factory locations and work forces.

The catamaran compitition is laughable compared to the mono market and I think that they have gotten very lax as they just compete against each other. The cats on the markets have several problems that they do not seem to want to address, or invest in effective solutions. In the 22-30' field these are the things that are wrong, and are solvable.

Fuel economy
Pound per pound in a narrow width, monos get better fuel milage, even though the cat guys started on their premise that there is less resistance in a cat. Now that fuel in the marina has tripled in price, this has become a significant factor in offshore boating, at least where I live. What has GB, WC, Twin Vee done to combat this- have they offered a planning hull bottom to double their milage? Please, ring my doorbell when someone over there wakes up.

Sneezing
With flat motor wells behind the transom, tunnel height is limited to the shaft length on motors, and untill you get up to 225's you are stuck with 25" of shaft. Slope those motor wells down, and you gain 7 inches or more tunnel height and or rienforcement over the span, and when water is not blocking off 100% of the rear of tunnel, sneezing is eliminated.

Increasing tunnel height also reduces turbulence in the tunnel which improves gas economy and leaves a cleaner wake for trolling. But what do they say about this- oh we have the vector hull that lifts the hulls on a foam cloud to get a more comfortable ride- oh bull, out and out bull marketing lingo as as this just burns more gas to create foam on a low boat, and puts the motors dangerously close to injesting water being forced out of the funnel tunnel to keep the boat lower to the water.

Height over the water
Jeez, if you want something low to the water, how about making swim platforms platforms, ,inventing the step, buying a ladder, adding a foot to your gaff or even adding side doors for loading gear at the dock or fish and people where they do not have to contend with propellers?

The brackets pushed farther back also let you raise your motors, creating less drag, again, stuff that has been done for years with monos.

Cabin placement
Having brackets give you over hanging weight in the rear that will lift the bow. Tell me, who in the US offers a sportcabin cat where you can sit up front for good visibility and have a huge rear deack for fishing like on a Parker? What is the point of having a soft riding bow if you don't get to sit farther forward?

Following Sea Ride
Having a planning hull with a higher tunnel allows you to balance the boat more like a mono with more weight aft. This keeps the nose up and keeps the cat from taking green water over the bow, even at slow spped.
What do they suggest? -- huge permatrims to produce lift running the engines at inefficient angles that again, just burn more fuel-same ol same ol right?

Head Sea Ride
Planning hulls need to put their nose down to get a better ride. This requires moving the motors a little off center so that you can mount trim tabs. Ah trim tabs, novel concept.

Snap roll
The only way to overcome this is more beam, and here cats shine as they don't push more water with more beam like a monohull. But has anyone offered a 12'-14' beam that can be delivered once to a marina and kept in the water or on a lift? Why does every cat have to be orientated towards a trailer?

I could go on and on about their lack of on board creature comforts, styling, storage space, and cabin space cabin space that is considered the norm for average monohulls, so this challenge bs kinda ticked me off.

IMO, its time for WC and others to make some needed changes if they really want to compete, and then, cats will rule.

If they don't, guys like Billy Freeman will eat their lunch, even with their prototypes.


YUM YUM, we are eating lunch as we speak. Just kidding..... It will be a while before we can touch the sales of a major manufacturer like World Cat.


Seriously, you hit right on. There was alot lacking in the design of all of the production cats. I mean all of them. I feel like we have figured out all of the design issues. So much so that we are pursuing copyright protection. We have had tons of interest in the 33, but almost as much interest in building bigger cats. We are currently designing a 38' cat based on the 33' that will utililize the yamaha 350's. We expect performance to match that of the 33' with Suzuki 300's.

I had a long talk with Capt Mike Ellis yesterday(owner of hull #1) I asked him straight up, handling wise, how does the Freeman 33 handle compared to a monohull? He said that the boat is very predictable and handles much more like a monohull than a cat. I asked him how she compares to the 36' Contender he used to own? His reply, "Aint no comparison".

I like the stories of how he passes triple engine monos in the river while running out. I ask him " Cmon Mike, how do you know they werent just running easy down the river"? He said," Cuz they are my buddies and they were pissed that I passed them running at our normal cruising speed".

I want in on your challenge! Make it all go down in Louisiana. There are plenty of WC's and Contenders down there. Mike would like nothing more.
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Old 02-02-2008, 06:30 PM
  #20  
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Default Re: Lets end the debate- World Cat v/s Contender

Billy,

Forget the OBs...if you go to 38, you really ought to look at diesel IBs...better economy, good performance, much better resale value.

Harry
Harry Brosofsky is offline  

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