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URGENT BEWARE OF LED LIGHTING

Old 09-02-2007, 09:10 PM
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Default URGENT BEWARE OF LED LIGHTING

if you are installing led lights they cannot be run off normal size circuit breakers. they are fire hazards . innovative lighting led running light caught fire last night. bad enuff its my 3rd set since the lenses keep coming undone. now the circuit board starts a fire. nowhere do they tell you to downgrade your fuses when replacing bulb type lights. nowhere do they tell you what size fuse to run. all were taught is fuse smaller than gauge size of wire its protecting. another thread talks of led rope lighting smoldering also. these leds may be miracle lights but you better use very small amp fuses. and what about all the 110volt trouble lights etc aint no way there fuse protected leave one turned on and watch your garage burn down someday.
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Old 09-02-2007, 10:12 PM
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Default Re: URGENT BEWARE OF LED LIGHTING

Now you got me spooked. Should I drop an inline on that LED Innovative bow light?
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Old 09-02-2007, 10:38 PM
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Default Re: URGENT BEWARE OF LED LIGHTING

If you don't know how to safely install electrical devices and wiring on your boat, don't do it, hire a pro. You can't blame the manufacturer for your own incompetence.

And how can you lump all LED lighting into one "danger" category. Even if you did somehow uncover an actual defect in one manufacturer's product, why would you think that your "warning" would apply to all similar products regardless of the manufacturer?
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Old 09-02-2007, 10:47 PM
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Default Re: URGENT BEWARE OF LED LIGHTING

Better to put in an inline fuse than suffer the consequences of a hot light. You don't have to be a genius to install a fuse but you have to know to do it.
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Old 09-03-2007, 10:31 AM
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Default Re: URGENT BEWARE OF LED LIGHTING

one can very easily lump all leds into one category because of their electrical design. you unknowing pompass ah. an led is a diode not a light bulb every led has a resistor attached to it. if your bulb fails its an open circuit. if a diode fails its a short circuit a direct connection between pos and neg now who knows what the amps that short can carry because they dont tells us ah. never had an alternator go bad and catch it happeneing? the diodes blow in the alt allowing neg to meet pos head on your alt will be glowing at night or too hot to touch and the current flow kills your battery. most people only wake up to find a dead battery and not experience it. if theres enuff battery or a disiel with onboard charger fire can occur cause automakers dont fuse that link for a failure like that. same with whats happening with these led replacements. many reports on various boards so well leave it to a good lawyer one of these days to get proper labeling on the packages so us inept fools can properly install them
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Old 09-03-2007, 11:08 AM
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Default Re: URGENT BEWARE OF LED LIGHTING

fuse or circuit breaker should always be matched to the anticipated load and wiring
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Old 09-03-2007, 11:09 AM
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Default RE: URGENT BEWARE OF LED LIGHTING

Thanks for the warning. I noticed a couple threads on this and have read them in spite of the battles raging therein. I think most of us look at LED products and think "low draw, no heat, lots of light - how cool is that?" and install them. I bought them and installed them for under gunwale lighting and never gave the 10 amp fuse a second thought. You can bet I have now and the fuse has been replaced with a 3 amp.

THT wins again!
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Old 09-03-2007, 11:49 AM
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Default Re: URGENT BEWARE OF LED LIGHTING

These are all good points and would point out that today there are lots of electrical systems on most boats. If you are going
to be consumer today it is practical to have an understanding of basic electrical and at least a simple vom with current clamp.
A little knowledge on the part of the boat owner will often enable him to resolve problems without the dependency on others
while boating far from help.


Thanks for the warning though, I see Kerno has already made use of it and I will double check my own boat.





Steve
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Old 09-03-2007, 02:33 PM
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Default Re: URGENT BEWARE OF LED LIGHTING

Wow, hatterasman ! Why the name calling? LED lights are an up and coming technology. As a result there are good and badly designed products at this point.

You can't lump them altogether or you will definitely not be a happy camper. There is a reason why some LEDs cost so much.

You simply can't lump all LEDs together and label them bad. Especially because an incorrect fuse was used.

Ocean LED's are an example of an excellent product. They have spent the money and with the proper R&D have resulted in a true state of art light. But you still have to use proper fusing...
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Old 09-03-2007, 02:43 PM
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Default Re: URGENT BEWARE OF LED LIGHTING

razz i simply posted a warning for others safety and the other ah wants to blame it on not knowing what i am doing when in reality he has no knowledge of electrical circuits whatsoever if a warning to others is a crime now adays then you can join rwidman and his ancestors
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Old 09-03-2007, 03:01 PM
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Default Re: URGENT BEWARE OF LED LIGHTING

hatterasman - 9/3/2007 1:43 PM

razz i simply posted a warning for others safety and the other ah wants to blame it on not knowing what i am doing when in reality he has no knowledge of electrical circuits whatsoever if a warning to others is a crime now adays then you can join rwidman and his ancestors
hatterasman,

I spent most of my career as an electronic technician for a very large public school system. I was often the lead technician on especially difficult projects or repairs. I also wrote technical manuals. I know about LEDs, circuit protection, amps, watts, and voltage. I'm not the guy who improperly installed a set of lights and almost set his boat on fire.

LEDs are the lighting of now and of the future. Look around you - cars, trucks, trailers, boats, flashlights, stoplights, tools, signs, they are everywhere and they have proven to be safe and efficient. Of course, it's possible to produce a defective product just like with any other product. It's also possible to misjudge the expertise of your market and fail to include instructions aimed at the inexperienced installer.


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Old 09-03-2007, 04:30 PM
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Default Re: URGENT BEWARE OF LED LIGHTING

rwidman is absolutely correct....

All LED lighting I've seen gives a spec for power consumption in watts. Rope lighting specifies power/ft. Current drawn=Total Power/Voltage. Once you know the current draw you can fuse accordingly.

People have lost houses and worse by doing electrical work they aren't qualified to be doing.
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Old 09-03-2007, 04:43 PM
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hatterasman - 9/3/2007 10:31 AM

if a diode fails its a short circuit a direct connection between pos and neg now who knows what the amps that short can carry because they dont tells
Are you saying that an LED only has one mode of failure, that being a short or direct path of positive to negative? Why can't it also fail in the open circuit mode?

To repeat, the rating of a fuse or CB is required in a circuit based on the current carrying capability of the wire. If the wire to an LED is 22 gauge (about what most of them are) and you have a 12 gauge wire feeding the wire to the LED, then the fuse or the CB needs to be rated for the 22 gauge wire. If the current consuming device uses much less current than the wire will carry then just use a smaller fuse if you want to err on the side of safety. That is, let's say the LED uses .3 milliamps and is connected to a wire that is rated for 3 amps. Use a .5 milliamp fuse in this instance.

Most LED's that I have played with will simply fail in the open mode when an overvoltage is applied to them. Apply 12 volts directly to an LED and watch what happens. The LED is destroyed and no further current will flow.
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Old 09-03-2007, 04:50 PM
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Default Re: URGENT BEWARE OF LED LIGHTING

Esox1 - 9/3/2007 4:30 PM

rwidman is absolutely correct....

All LED lighting I've seen gives a spec for power consumption in watts. Rope lighting specifies power/ft. Current drawn=Total Power/Voltage. Once you know the current draw you can fuse accordingly.

People have lost houses and worse by doing electrical work they aren't qualified to be doing.








Steve
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Old 09-03-2007, 05:53 PM
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Default Re: URGENT BEWARE OF LED LIGHTING

LED's are not an "up and coming" techonogy, they have been around for 30 years. They are coming of age because of the high cost of energy, and simply because they "look cool" I have done extensive experimenting with LEDs, and can tell you they are so effecient its scary. Anyone with any electronics experience at all (enugh to solder a string of LEDs together) will know that they pull WAYYYYY less current than incandescent bulbs. A high-beam headlight pulls about 4-5 amps. a caddy LED taillight will pull about 75 milliamps compared to an 1157 bulb which pulls 1.5 amps. The LED is WAY brighter too. Knowing this, the fuse will have to be replaced. Of course your average consumer/self installer wouldn't know this, but it should be included in the instructions. Would save a potential lawsuit.

Thanks alot for the warning, chances are you have prevented a few readers here from experiencing LED meltdown.
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Old 09-03-2007, 06:05 PM
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Default Re: URGENT BEWARE OF LED LIGHTING

jethro1 - 9/3/2007 3:43 PM

To repeat, the rating of a fuse or CB is required in a circuit based on the current carrying capability of the wire. If the wire to an LED is 22 gauge (about what most of them are) and you have a 12 gauge wire feeding the wire to the LED, then the fuse or the CB needs to be rated for the 22 gauge wire. If the current consuming device uses much less current than the wire will carry then just use a smaller fuse if you want to err on the side of safety. That is, let's say the LED uses .3 milliamps and is connected to a wire that is rated for 3 amps. Use a .5 milliamp fuse in this instance.
You can install this rope light on a circuit that's fused at twenty amps by installing the .5 amp fuse at the point of connection. Think of how you connect a stereo or chart plotter to your boat's electrical system it has its own inline fuse.

Most LED's that I have played with will simply fail in the open mode when an overvoltage is applied to them. Apply 12 volts directly to an LED and watch what happens. The LED is destroyed and no further current will flow.
Correct. And if the LED shorts rather than opens, the series current limiting resistor will limit the current through the circuit.

BTW: I replaced the incandescent lamps in my courtesy lights with LED replacement lamps. There is absolutely no reason to chance or add any fuses in a case like this. There is no smaller gauge wiring as there might be in a string of "rope lights".
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Old 09-03-2007, 06:14 PM
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Default Re: URGENT BEWARE OF LED LIGHTING

Hatterasman, now you are going out of your way to insult me??? As someone else so adroitly pointed out, we're not the DA who didn't know how to rate a fuse !

And as far as directions go, every piece of electric/electronics from a bilge pump to my Ray E120, states very clearly, "to be only installed by a qualified installer". I think your qualifications speak for themselves.

If your post helps others to keep from screwing up, I'm glad but it could have been done without the attitude and name calling.
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Old 09-03-2007, 06:20 PM
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Default Re: URGENT BEWARE OF LED LIGHTING

razz - 9/3/2007 5:14 PM

If your post helps others to keep from screwing up, I'm glad but it could have been done without the attitude and name calling.
Well, the thread title is misleading also. First, it's not at all urgent, and second, improperly installed LED lighting is no more dangerous than any other improperly installed electrical device.
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Old 09-03-2007, 07:07 PM
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Default Re: URGENT BEWARE OF LED LIGHTING

Yes, it would have been better titled:

URGENT - Watch out for people who don't know what they are doing !
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Old 09-03-2007, 07:18 PM
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Default Re: URGENT BEWARE OF LED LIGHTING

wow, you guys are tuff.

2 wires and electrical tape does not make me qualified to do electrical work, wtf??
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