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Old 05-01-2020, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by dssmith View Post
I have nothing in regards to a peer reviewed study showing "causes" or "inciting issues" regarding suicide for physicians, nurses, DMD's, pharmacists or EMT's etc. The "survey" by EMT "educaters" was a poor representation of a peer reviewed and meaningful compilation of issues regarding work related stresses. That's why my reference to BillinStuart is on to something. I will let him speak for himself regarding the selfishness of suicide. Like you, I'd like to see meaningful progress in dealing with professional's suicides and self destructive behavior.

I still don't feel people who identify that suicide is selfishness are incorrect. One of your inciting conditions for suicide is drug use. We all agree that this contributes mightily to medical professionals suicides. My own specialty is probably the worst. People that use and abuse drugs might be "sick" but they sure as hell are selfish, and will abuse any of their colleages, friends or family while under the spell of drugs. It is impossible for me to see (from my lengthy experiences with druggies) the difference between their selfishness when using drugs, and the next step which might be suicide. Or financial ruin, or marital ruin, or professional ruin, or patient damage. I just don't have the capability to parse and separate these issues with terminology.

The poor physician that took her life got intervention and received psychiatric and mental health care. From her family, and from her physicians. Those interventions failed and she committed suicide.
Simplifying her situation, which was obviously complex, to being a result of her "heroic work" on the "frontlines of medicine" is something her grieving father, and the mercilless media have taken advantage of. She likely did not commit suicide because BillinStuart called her selfish, or a coward, or anything else. Nor did this prevent her from appropriate care. Her illness prevented her from seeing her selfishness, and sadly got the best of her. Treatment failures are part of the game. In health and mental care, we play in the big leagues. Nobody pitches underhand in this league.

I will sign off this thread and show myself out with my quote, cut and pasted from earlier:
I'm not arguing against proper psychiatric and psychological care for those ill enough to consider suicide. People so afflicted need and require it. This can be life saving.
I looked back at some of the prior "suicide threads" in Dockside Chat, and noticed it is often many of the same people expressing many of the same entrenched ideas.

Interesting that you connected the "selfishness" of suicide with the "selfishness" of substance abuse, presumably because of your personal experience, also noting the high correlation between substance use and suicide. [Use of alcohol and drugs is found to be present in over 50% of suicides.] I think we are defining "selfish" differently. Does "selfish" mean only that the person takes their own life without being able to consider the impact of the act on others, or does "selfish" mean that the person is capable of considering the impact on others and willfully chooses this course of action despite having a full appreciation of the harm it will cause? Some (including some on this board) seem to use a definition that includes the latter stipulations. My unwillingness to call suicide "selfish" arises out of 30 years of career experience with suicidally-depressed patients some of whom, by their own admission later (after treatment following a suicide attempt), acknowledge that they were unable to see anything beyond their own pain and anguish.

I am not blaming anyone- including BillinStuart - for anyone's suicide. I simply do not find it to be helpful to label suicidal people "selfish" or in any way discourage them from disclosing their suicidal thoughts or seeking treatment by stigmatizing them. Maybe someone here can enlighten me? What do we gain by labeling them as "selfish"?