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Random Quote: Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day.
Down south we net Sardines and goggle eyes for the live well, troll up 2 smaller skipjacks 4-8 lbs for the tuna tubes, and catch 8 or so larger skipjacks to store dead in ice to use as fresh chunk. This is ideally done in the afternoon when we come in and the battery charger cures the bait at night so that we are ready to go hard to meet the fish offshore at daybreak.
We stop when running we see activity using plastics at first to see if we can raise an early morning wahoo, and will throw a rigged live skipjack into the spread if a billfish or larger tuna hits a plastic or comes into the spread.
We obviously have to slow down to about 3 knots so the plastic comes in, and 2 live skipjack are trolled slowly. I will usually also set out one of my 24" birds short behind the prop to attract attention, as this jumps around like a greenstick sled, and a couple of dangling squids will also be added this season to see if this works in close.
I have been rigging the big baits on 50 lb tackle but plan to go to 80# as we have been spooled on the light tld25's.
Instead of going to standard 15' mono 300 lb leaders, I am contemplating using 100 lb FC or single strand wire and circle hooks, as I do want to release all billfish.
So let me know if I can improve on this new set up. The old heavier leaders work on billfish, but I am trying to go more invisible for the larger tuna:
300 yds 135# braid to 300 yds of top shot 80#mono to 5 yrds of 100 lb FC to #8/0 black gamutsu circle hook with 3/0 live bait hook wired to its shank, using the little 3/0 hook through the nose of the skijack to make him easy to rig, and last longer with the main circle immeiately in from of his nose, exposed for the bill fish, tuna, or big mahi.
not a method I am very familiar with. I don't really like it because it's very inefficient at covering ground and it damages a lot of fish. Having said that if used in the right place at the right time it's also extremely effective. You absolutely have to know exactly where the fish are before you put out a method that limits you to slow trolling at a little better than walking pace. If you catch a baitfish out in the middle of nowhere and put it out live, you got to be real lucky to get a bite. You really need to be working a tight area like a FAD or a piece of structure that isn't too extensive. Or somewhere there is bait that is not moving around fast and you can keep up with at live bait trolling speed.
When fishing live bait I do it pretty "old hat". Prefer smaller baits say 1-4 lbs as they get eaten more easily. Bridle rig. Just two baits , if I can't get two live then one fresh dead and one live will do. One close to the boat around 2-3 boat lengths and one a little longer. Prefer pretty heavy gear - stiff 50W rig at minimum and 80 preferably if you are targeting/expecting larger fish from about 300 lb. on up. Big hook to match the bait, even a half pound frigate mackerel should go with at least a 10/0 hook. You don't need a designer hook but you need a strong hook, Mustad 7691 is ideal. Larger baits should carry an 11/0 or 12/0 hook. 22 feet of 400 lb leader for larger baits down to about 20 feet of 250 lb. for smaller baits. Tackle is heavy and can pull hard, the inside of his mouth is very rough so use something you can still pull hard on at leader after it's been chaffed up some. I don't think I would like to go smaller than 250 lb. leader even for the big yfts. They have sharp teeth and you'll probably need to pull on them pretty hard at leader. Possibly fluoro might be worth a go here, but I'd start off with the standard rig and if I was seeing them but couldn't buy a bite then try the fluoro. Troll with a big loop of line between the rigger clip and the rod tip- automatic drop-back. Rigger clip is set very tight as bigger baits can pull very hard when they get panicky. Or use a rubber band wrapped and backwrapped tightly to the line tied to a piece of cord. When the band breaks the fish will have the bait. Leave the reel on strike, once the line comes tight the fish should have eaten the bait right down the hatch on the 30+ feet of slack line. Live bait marlin normally are hooked up solid so don't be afraid to fight him hard. Cut the leader as close to the fish as possible to release.
Like I said
We only stop our offshore run when we see diving birds and working fish.
We then put out the plastic and fast troll to see if their is a Blue M, wahoo, or large tuna underneath the small ones that wants to hit.
We continue with the plastics untill things slow down, then break out the big baits to see if we can buy a strike from a biggy while still covering this smaller area with the slow troll.
If that doesn't work the skippies go back in the tube and we will ballon a sardine/gogle eye, flyline another, and tailhook a third so that he will go deep on the 30 lb gear, while the captain starts chunking a skippy on FC on the 50 lb gear to get some blood in the water.
If this doesn't buy a strike from a +40 lb tuna then we move on.
I hear what you say about the 400 lb leaders, but I am less and less interested in the marlin, sails, and smaller tuna that will "blindly" take these.
Thats why I am wondering if you think the 100 lb FC and circle will be stong enough for 80lb tackle and the tuna with circle hooks, saving the heavier leaders untill they start acting like dopes, so I can feed em the rope. If a marlin chaffs and cuts this, he has released himself, which I would do anyway.
The clear blue water works against us with the larger smarter tuna, so a slow moving quiet boat will keep them from sounding completly, and the big live baits will draw the bigger fish if they are around.
As far as the outriggers goes, I don't use them anymore, as I have rail holders that hold 2 rods almost straight out from the gunwales for separation, and we just leave the clicker on with no drag. A downrigger clip lighty holds the line right at the reel to release the baits with the least amount of tension possible. If the skippy breaks this hold on his own, I will use a little thumb drag to slow him letting his persurer catch and swollow him faster. But this fox and hound chase is one of the most exciting moments of the strike and fight and I like to have the rod in hand at the time of hookup, and not in the holder if possible.
here's a link to the adjustable clip.
I don't know your local fishery, however would like to make one observation, if your birds and bait are dipping and moving fast, you won't be able to stay with them and work the school properly at slow speed, and artificials will probably produce better. If on the other had they are moving or feeding slowly enough so that you won't get left far behind once you slow down to live bait speed then live bait could be very effective.
When it comes to leader, no, I wouldn't dream of using 100 lb fc on baits like live skipjack. I would use at a minimum 200 lb fc as the bigger tunas have sharp teeth, will fray through light leader if you're unlucky enough for the leader to run over the teeth, and are very strong on leader and can pop light leader easily, especially if it has been chaffed. 250 to 300 would be better yet.
Live skipjack are much stronger than any of the small live baits, they will pull really hard when they get spooked. If you use a light setting on the clip and the reel in free spool they will easily pop the clip and you risk a huge backlash. If you try to slow them down by thumbing the spool.. Gee you must have asbestos thumbs, that's all I can say. The automatic dropback from the riggers is simple, works much better with heavy tackle that doesn't free spool easily, and as close to being idiot proof as possible, which is always a big bonus.
If you don't have riggers to spread your baits and you fish with two baits of any size you are running a huge risk of getting crossed lines once one or both baits get spooked. If I had to fish with no outriggers I would fish one bait only and wrap a rubber band tightly around and down the line several times, backwrap the rubber up the line giving me the two loops to hand hold the rubber band. Give myself a big loop of automatic dropback between the rubber band and the rod tip, just like with the outrigger. Hand hold the rubber band till the bite happened, not letting go until the fish either broke the rubber band or I knew the fish definitely had the bait.
I don't expect the above will change the way you fish, but I do look forward to reading about your adventures. It can be interesting reading about guys losing fish, so long as it doesn't happen to me!
Patudo,
Answers to your statements below in CAPITAL LETTERS:
I don't know your local fishery, however would like to make one observation, if your birds and bait are dipping and moving fast, you won't be able to stay with them and work the school properly at slow speed, and artificials will probably produce better. If on the other had they are moving or feeding slowly enough so that you won't get left far behind once you slow down to live bait speed then live bait could be very effective.
RIGHT ON. THE BIG BAITS ONLY GO ON WHEN THE BIRDS SIT DOWN AND THE FISH FINDER INDICATES THAT THE FISH ARE UNDER THEM. THE BIG BAITS ARE ONLY DRAGGED FOR ABOUT 5 TO 10 MINUTES IN THIS AREA, AND ARE USED AS THE SMALLER FISH WILL LEAVE THEM ALONE. IF WE DON'T GET A STRIKE, THEN THEY GO BACK IN THE TUBES, WITHOUT UNHOOKING THEM, AND THE SMALLER LIVE BAITS GO OUT ON THE DRIFT, WITH CHUNK AS AN ADDED ENTICER. WE USUALLY CAN GET THEM TO TAKE ONE OF THE 3 BAIT OFFERINGS AFTER THEY PARTIALLY SOUND AND GET LOCKJAW ON THE PLASTICS, AND THIS KEEPS US ON FISH INSTEAD OF GOING TO LOOK FOR MORE. BUT IF THERE ARE GROUPS OF WORKING BIRDS, WE'LL MOVE FROM AREA TO AREA WITH THE PLASTICS. WE RELEASED OVER 50 FISH IN 9 HOURS OF FISHING ON OUR LAST TRIP LAST SEASON, FILLING THE FREEZERS WITH 10 SMALLER EATING SCHOOLIES.
When it comes to leader, no, I wouldn't dream of using 100 lb fc on baits like live skipjack. I would use at a minimum 200 lb fc as the bigger tunas have sharp teeth, will fray through light leader if you're unlucky enough for the leader to run over the teeth, and are very strong on leader and can pop light leader easily, especially if it has been chaffed. 250 to 300 would be better yet.
OK, BUT WHEN USING THIS HEAVY A LEADER, I DON'T REALLY SEE THE BENEFIT FROM USING FC OVER MONO, LIKE I DO WITH THE LIGHTER GAUGES WHERE THE FIBER QUALITIES OF THE FC MAKE IT TOUGHER TO SHRED. I HAVE NEVER HAD A NEW 300 LB MONO LEADER BREAK ON ME, WHICH INDICATES THAT THE WAHOO AND OTHER REAL TOOTHY CRITTERS ARE SHYING AWAY WHEN YOU SLOW TROLL IN CLEAR WATER WHERE VISABILITY PLAYS INTO THE EQUATION MORE THAN FAST TROLLING IN THE SUDS. ONLT MARLIN AND SAILS ON HEAVY LEADERS OVER THE LAST 3 YERS HERE, NO TUNA OR WAHOO ON ANTHING OVER 100 LB MONO.
Live skipjack are much stronger than any of the small live baits, they will pull really hard when they get spooked. If you use a light setting on the clip and the reel in free spool they will easily pop the clip and you risk a huge backlash. If you try to slow them down by thumbing the spool.. Gee you must have asbestos thumbs, that's all I can say. The automatic dropback from the riggers is simple, works much better with heavy tackle that doesn't free spool easily, and as close to being idiot proof as possible, which is always a big bonus. THE CLICKERS ON MY REELS PREVENT ALL BACKLASHES, AND THE CLIP IS COMPLETLY ADJUSTABLE WITH THICKER LINES FROM HAIR TRIGGER TO UNPULLABLE. IF YOU CALCULATE THE DROP BACK YOU GET FROM 16' RIGGERS ON A SMALL BOAT, IT IS NEGLEGABLE AT 7 MPH, MOVING 10.26 FEET PER SECOND, USING UP 16' OF LOOP IN 1.5 SECONDS.
ADJUSTING THESE CLIPS AT THE REELS LETS YOU PULL THEM ON TRIAL AND RESET THEM AFTER THE TRIAL SO THAT YOU KNOW THAT THEY ARE DEAD ON WITHOUT HAVING AS MANY VARIABLE CONTRIBUTING TO EXTRA PLAY FOR THE LONG RIGGERS COMBINED WITH THE SEAS AND BOAT MOVEMENT WORKING AGAINST A FLEXIBLE ROD AND DRAG WITH THE CLIP AT A DISTANCE. ANYWAY IT WORKS GREAT, AND AS WE MOVE REAL FAST BETWEEN SCHOOLS WITH THE PLASTICS, BAITS, AND JIGS, WE DON'T HAVE TO FOOL WITH STORING AND SETTING THE OUT RIGGERS WHEN THE ACTION IS HOT IN ROUGH BOUNCING SEAS.
If you don't have riggers to spread your baits and you fish with two baits of any size you are running a huge risk of getting crossed lines once one or both baits get spooked. If I had to fish with no outriggers I would fish one bait only and wrap a rubber band tightly around and down the line several times, backwrap the rubber up the line giving me the two loops to hand hold the rubber band. Give myself a big loop of automatic dropback between the rubber band and the rod tip, just like with the outrigger. Hand hold the rubber band till the bite happened, not letting go until the fish either broke the rubber band or I knew the fish definitely had the bait.
GUESS YOU HAVE TO SEE IT TO BELIEVE IT BUT I RUN BOTH BAITS AT EQUAL LENGTHS, NOT LONG AND CLOSE LIKE YOU, AND THEY ARE ONLY ABOUT 40-60 'FEET BEHIND US.
I don't expect the above will change the way you fish, but I do look forward to reading about your adventures. It can be interesting reading about guys losing fish, so long as it doesn't happen to me!
YUK YUK
IF YOU'RE NOT CAREFULL YOU ARE GOING TO GET AN INVITE TO COME ON DOWN. RIGHT NOW I FISH CLOSE IN BARRA DE NAVIDAD ON MY CAPEHORN19, BUT I AM MOVING TO PV EARLY NEXT FALL WITH A NEW CAT AND RADAR, SO I CAN GO THE 25-50 MILES OUT TO THE CORBETENA BANK FROM PUNTA MITA BEACH OR THE PV MARINA, AND ALSO GO THE 60 MILES TO ISLA ISABELA NORTH OF SAN BLAS WHERE I THINK IT IS STILL PRIMO.
THANKS FOR YOUR THOUGHTS.
JEFF
Hi Jeff - Sorry if I sounded a little harsh. Obviously hope you have lots of fun with the new boat in the new spot. Good luck and let us know how you get on.
Now having said all that - I don't like the idea of 100 # leader because you have very little to play with if the fish does damage the fluoro. Yes it is harder, stiffer than mono but it isn't indestructible. Once you have a powerful fish like a 200 pound yft to boat side then you may need to pull hard to get him under control and within reach of the gaff, the stronger your leader the better. A fish of that size and power can pop 100 # leader easily, to wire a fish on light leader like that needs a real light touch and if you don't wire the fish and try and fight him to right beside the boat the odds are that both you and he will be pooped by then. Ask Josh Temple or someone who fishes PV regularly, what leader they are using for the big tunas, and I'm almost sure they will be using leader with a break strain of 200 # or more whenever possible.
The setup I described with the outriggers has an extra big loop of line between the outrigger clip and the rod tip so you get 30 or more feet of automatic dropback. Once the fish has the bait and the clip opens everything should come tight automatic.
I've used TLDs before, one hell of a lot in fact, and frankly I don't think their clicker is stiff enough to avoid a backlash if you troll it on complete free spool. Maybe for a little bait like a stripbait for sailfish but I don't know if you have an idea just how hard a big tuna hits a bait? In fact when I read your setup I kind of shake my head and think.. Gee I realy want to see how he gets on when he finally comes across some of those big fish. But, anyway, the whole idea is to have fun. When I was working as professional crew I didn't realize till a little late in the game that we were not out fishing to catch the biggest fish or the most fish but to have the happiest clients, and if the client was happier using his gear, lures etc even though the boat had top quality gear maintained in top condition and a bucket full of lures that were proven in skipper's home waters, then so be it , so long as the gear was capable of handling the fish and in good working order with fresh line ("No sir a penn 6/0 senator half full of milky 80# line simply will not cut the cake on our blue marlin, hook a fish on that outfit and it's as good as a death sentence"). I've done some time in waters that did have big fish, and I'm no hotshot but I do have some idea how to go about catching them, and I'm happy to advise based on what I've seen on the water, but neither do I want to preach to anyone, and I really love listening to "The one that got away" stories...although I try real hard to avoid them happening to me, and to the guys I fished for. If there are really so many big fish at Puerto Vallarta you'll learn about big fish quickly anyway.
Guess you hit a nerve.
I too worked as a full time deck hand for three summers. Ventura 2 summers, then SD on full day and long range trips, 1965-1968. So along with living full time in Mexico for over 30 years and catching my first billfish in Guaymas at the age of 7 in 1958, I do have a vague idea of how hard a tuna or marlin can hit, and probably boated over 20 marlin and 100 sailfish everyone of those years, on senator 6/0's that saw some grease and new drags about 1 out of 10 years, if they were lucky.
And I had a hard time convincing myself to buy these 2 speed winches last week, but as I do expect to get even older and more sissy like in my old age, felt I would need a handicap after I get all crunched over and drop below 250.
Downrigger and live skippy or little tunny works well here for Wahoo and Yft....
I'm heading out tomorrow to fish solo for yft so the worst thing is hand cranking the deeptroll ball up from 120' down!!
While you are slow trolling do you throw any livies back in the wake? We did it the other day and picked up a decent yft on a 4'' Pilchard slow trolled off the outrigger....just had him hooked thro' the lip on a 3/0 Gamakatsu livebait hook.
Thought the fish was a lip hooked Wahoo when it took about 200 yards across the surface on its first run!
I faithfully tried the downriggers here for two years, and caught one marlin, on one knockdown, but 2 other surface baits got hit at the same time, so I attribute this success to a large hungry pod that would have also struck my big toe if it was in the water at the time. During this same time period we also released over 50 billfish, and caught 10 times as many tuna and dorados.
Before I started to chunk, I thought I could entice the fish seen deep on the fish finder to bite by lowering lures, strips, dead and live baits down to their level instead of making them swim to the sun. I even tried stealthier lead core gear, and this worked only marginally for west coast yelowtail with live baits.
Personally, I have had much better luck getting fish to start feeding and rising to the top using top trolled live baits and chumming with fresh chunk on the drift, but will always have a 2 lb piece of rebar to lower a cedar plug, dark feather, or a 10" purple maurader on a flat line to get one lure in the spread as deep as possible.
I always read articles on the success of deep downrigger tactics, but have found that tail hooked live bait, ballons, flylined live bait, yo yo jigs and other such malarky works better for me. And, when the tide starts to rise, they seem to hit everything in sight, so timing in my mind is a lot more critical, even if the tide starts to rise at 1 o'clock in the afternoon.
Bullshipper,
thanks for the downrigger comments! I am also guilty of trying to catch fish "the hard way" when all it takes is dragging a chrome car bumper around in circles to get bit. I need to quit imagining a big fish waiting down below for me to lower dinner! Salmon are another story, indeed.
I was sorry to hear that the Chain Gang double hook rig made by Williamson is history as Williamson went out of business. These are the two hooks rigs connected by a stainless steel small chain. We truly got a much higher percentage of fish using these rigs in our lures, on live bait, or rigged with fresh dead.
Don't give up on down riggers just yet..... 3 years ago we fished a Bacardi tournament here in Bermuda and you could only weigh in fish over 20 pounds. The tuna bite was quiet, the Wahoo were sleepy and the Barracudas were nailing most of the slow trolled live speedos so out went two speedos on wire rigs on the downriggers with 140 feet of wire and we slow trolled over structure and ended up with 3 big Almaco jacks (called Bonita here) of about 40#
apiece to win the division by about 80 pounds! We also use them here when trolling for Wahoo and it means you can troll at 10 knots and not have to deal with that big cigar lead when fighting fish on light (12, 16, 20 and 30 ) gear. Yes ,we fish 12 for wahoo but usually only with
livebaits or bloody chunks in the chumline......
The only things that would take my skippies and google eyes on the ball was Flipper, and he never got hooked. Then some article said to put staple on the back fin to keep the dolphin off, which worked on the dolphin and on everything else.
When they are hanging deep and not biting, it really takes a tide change or some fresh chunk to get them interested. Then they start getting aggressive with each other like chickens, being the first to the worm, so to say.
Big Live Bait Rigging and tactics
