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Old 03-24-2005, 06:14 PM   #1
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Default ht-100 drag washers- to grease or not to grease?

just an update to the penn ht-100 greased drag debate
got my reels back from alan and fished them hard last friday. alan replaced the stock abu-garcia drags with greased ht-100's

two of us yanked up a three-man limit of nice red snapper in 80- 100 ft of water, tied up to the rigs (all released). the reels are mounted on 5.5' 20# ande stand up rods, and spooled with 40# braid

the drags are silky smooth, no stuttering, and we were able to really crank down on the fish when needed to keep them out of the rig. very, very pleased

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Old 03-24-2005, 07:25 PM   #2
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Default RE: ht-100 drag washers- to grease or not to grease?

thanks, chris! what kind of drag settings did you use?

guys, there is a better way. i truely believe that this is it.
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Old 03-24-2005, 07:40 PM   #3
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Default RE: ht-100 drag washers- to grease or not to grease?

alan i'm not that scientific about it
i start with the star cranked down, and ease back on it when needed
snapper head straight for the legs of the rig...it's stop or pop on the first run, then you can play them up
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Old 03-24-2005, 08:11 PM   #4
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Default RE: ht-100 drag washers- to grease or not to grease?

Well shut my mouth!
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Old 03-25-2005, 06:00 AM   #5
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Default RE: ht-100 drag washers- to grease or not to grease?

I tend to disagree on the merits of this greased-HT-100 thing. Been thinking about the missing link for a while, and gave a question about this.

Alan you often use the term "drag failure" in various contexts. With what parameters or which criteria do you define this? I mean, what to you constitutes drag failure?

Stickiness, jerkiness, stutters? Yes, I'll agree that most of these are smoothed out when grease is applied, but at tjhe expense of a non-linear drag curve across a temperature range. Of course the drag is smooth, but the frictional value drops drastically as temperature increases. This to me constitutes a horrible failure. Drag material should maintain an even and constant value throughout.

Too late, I gotta run
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Old 03-25-2005, 06:51 AM   #6
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Default RE: ht-100 drag washers- to grease or not to grease?

Quote:
Dr. Rob - 3/25/2005 7:00 AM
Of course the drag is smooth, but the frictional value drops drastically as temperature increases. This to me constitutes a horrible failure. Drag material should maintain an even and constant value throughout.
Interesting stuff. Any numbers to support this or is it hyperbole?

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Old 03-25-2005, 07:22 AM   #7
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Default RE: ht-100 drag washers- to grease or not to grease?

Two years I had a Penn 50 with 80 pound Jinkai lock-up. I had a 76 inch Bluefin gabe the bite and head for England. 3/4 of the line screamed off the reel in seconds and the reel locked up. I moved the lever to Free Spool and put my thumb on the remaning line. The line stretched and the reel broke freed before the line. I was lucky that line stretch turned the fish back to the boat. I got most of the line back and fought the fish for about 45 minutes. The drag was horrible; but managed to get the fish. When I took the reel apart you could pieces of the black fiber washer fused to the stainless steel drag plate. I think that reel would have caught on fire if the drag washer was greased. I tear up a few Penn's every year and just replace the drag washer. Sometimes I can just resurface them along with the SS drag plate. I use a piece of plate glass and very fine wet paper and care. What is the flash point of the grease?
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Old 03-25-2005, 07:54 AM   #8
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Default RE: ht-100 drag washers- to grease or not to grease?

Quote:
rogerstg - 3/25/2005 6:51 AM

Quote:
Dr. Rob - 3/25/2005 7:00 AM
Of course the drag is smooth, but the frictional value drops drastically as temperature increases. This to me constitutes a horrible failure. Drag material should maintain an even and constant value throughout.
Interesting stuff. Any numbers to support this or is it hyperbole?
While we are throwing out opinions......well, it is the internet.

I would think the chart of a drag value would be more curved
then straight. When the drag gets to its upper limits, the tension
tends to indicate more increase with less adjustment.

CB, I believe the point of the grease is to reduce the abrasiveness
of the friction with a more fluid application of pressure( wow??)
The purpose of properly greased drags would be to reduce the
heat of friction by adding an element of slipperyness(new word?).
This would result in more of a drag through resistance by pressure
and not brakes
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Old 03-25-2005, 11:32 AM   #9
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Default RE: ht-100 drag washers- to grease or not to grease?

doc, nice to hear from you again. i enjoy our conversations tremendously. so i see two situations. the first i believe applies to 99.9999% of the fishermen out there. pan fish, bass, trout, rockfish, blues, striper, salmon, halibut, yellowtail and albacore. you're looking at a 1-5 minute fight and no chance for the drag cluster to heat up. here, a greased carbon fiber will stay smooth forever. it will never stick or stutter. of that i am convinced, and i think you agree. my goal here is to find a drag system that will allow a smooth startup, stone cold, each time, every time, forever. it is my firm contention that only one drag system can lay claim to this definition of a zero failure rate. chris agrees with me now, but we need to hear back from him in 5 years.

then there is that one guy in a million that will hook up on a screamer even with 40#'s of drag. here i will defer to you. and i will let you deal with his gear. if i was in this situation, i would be extremely interested in the relationship of drag pressure as a function of temperature in greased versus dry systems. but i have no interest in 1000 pound fish. personally, the most extreme situation i would seek out is on a 4/0 penn 113h with greased carbon fiber drags, and straight 50# mono against a 60-110 pound yellow fin tuna on a stationary platform. so far the score is alan 25, yellowfin 25 (various screwups), and great white 1. there were zero losses due to overheating or any other type of drag failure.

so to answer your question, i think the definitive study can be easily done. first, you find a device that will turn the handle of any reel at a rate of several hundred rpm against 15#'s (or what ever) of drag at the top of the spool. second, run the mono to a scale that gives you a continuous digital readout of drag pressure versus time. third, have a thermocouple that will measure the temp at the base of the gear sleeve post and give a continuious reading of temperature versus time. now flip the switch and turn the handle. you will measure drag pressure as a function of time and temperature as function of time. and now (here's the critical part) you can correlate drag pressure as a function of temperature. oh, and you will have to perform this test several times.

for the data to mean anything, a statistician will have to determine the "n" or number of trials required to reach statistical significance. if your sample size is not large enough, it is possible that trends might be due to random variation and any conclusions we draw would be meaningless. so all we need is an engineer to make the hardware, a statistician to crunch the numbers, a tech to run the tests, and a large reel company to fund a project that will eventually tell them that their drags are junk. you and i can author this paper, present it at the next clinical research meeting, then sit back and enjoy the respect and admiration of our peers. yeah, right.

and none of this applies to chris or the other 99.9999% of the fishermen out there because their reels never heat up.
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Old 03-25-2005, 11:39 AM   #10
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Default RE: ht-100 drag washers- to grease or not to grease?

O Great One

You have once again demonstrated the
foolishness of paraphrase.

Thanks Alan, I think
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Old 03-25-2005, 05:08 PM   #11
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Default RE: ht-100 drag washers- to grease or not to grease?

Extensive tribological studies have been done, numerous times by numerous companies, with numerous charts, values and tabulations. There is no conjecture or random tossing of opinion. Specialized machinery, jigs, rigs and one-time hit-or-miss Emmett Brown tests... kind of tedious, really.


Regarding drag curve and more-drag-with-less-adjustment, please bear in mind that this reflects the adjustment of the mechanism itself more than fluctuation of coefficient of friction in the friction material itself.

Thanks Alan for giving your definition. That explains why we weren't quite on the same page. Or, same page / different language.

Gotta run; have a good long weekend.
Doc.
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Old 03-25-2005, 07:21 PM   #12
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Default RE: ht-100 drag washers- to grease or not to grease?

Quote:
Dr. Rob - 3/25/2005 5:08 PM

Extensive tribological studies have been done, numerous times by numerous companies, with numerous charts, values and tabulations. There is no conjecture or random tossing of opinion. Specialized machinery, jigs, rigs and one-time hit-or-miss Emmett Brown tests... kind of tedious, really.

Regarding drag curve and more-drag-with-less-adjustment, please bear in mind that this reflects the adjustment of the mechanism itself more than fluctuation of coefficient of friction in the friction material itself.

Thanks Alan for giving your definition. That explains why we weren't quite on the same page. Or, same page / different language.

Gotta run; have a good long weekend.
Doc.
i'll have to remember to bring my slide rule on the boat the next time i go fishing...
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Old 03-25-2005, 09:45 PM   #13
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Default RE: ht-100 drag washers- to grease or not to grease?

Quote:
Kid Stuff - 3/24/2005 8:11 PM

Well shut my mouth!
Like I said.....
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Old 03-26-2005, 08:24 AM   #14
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Default RE: ht-100 drag washers- to grease or not to grease?

Tribological is a real word, I looked it up.
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Old 03-26-2005, 09:01 AM   #15
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Default RE: ht-100 drag washers- to grease or not to grease?

I'm confused.

Since Dr. Rob has indicated multiple studies and research done by reel companies leading to the conclusion that greased HT-100s lead to "horrible" drag failure, why does Penn insist that the HT-100 drag in their International fly reels (#4) be greased?
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Old 03-26-2005, 11:01 AM   #16
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Default RE: ht-100 drag washers- to grease or not to grease?

you're confused?try being a wanna be salt water person trying to learn something/anything from these experienced hull truth guys...
i get overwhelmed at some of these statements.no way in haites can a person remember all of it.i write alot of the stuff down but that's not really the way to go...you need to be able to recall it when you need it.
the 99.9999% i think relates more to me than triblogical.....
what the heck ever happened to KISS ??
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Old 03-26-2005, 01:40 PM   #17
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Default RE: ht-100 drag washers- to grease or not to grease?

Don't worry about trying to remember
it all, most will show up on a regular
basis. Learn to use the archive search
and keep a little log or notebook
handy for the really important stuff.
And, for goodness sake don't skip class.
The regulars on this sight are really
good about providing help, that is what
makes it a great place to be.
When it comes down to it, my wife catches
more fish with worms out of the little pond
behind the house than I ever do with all
my fancy stuff.
I understand what you are saying though!
After reading some of the post on this forum
I'm almost afraid to go fishing because I'll
do something wrong.
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Old 03-26-2005, 03:07 PM   #18
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Default RE: ht-100 drag washers- to grease or not to grease?

ok, here's reel maintenance made simple.

1. install penn ht-100 drag washers and shimano star drag teflon grease. there are penn washers that will fit any star drag reel except for the trinidad/torium. there are many penn drag washers that will also fit many lever drag reels.

2. reel x for the bearings or bushings.

3. yamaha engine grease (25 cents an ounce) on all the non-exposed metal surfaces and screw holes. you can also use shimano drag grease ($5 an ounce).

4. for small reels, strip off all the mono, rinse the reel with fresh water, blow out the water with compressed air, respool the reel with fresh mono, re-set the drags and set the reel away for the next trip. fishing line is cheap. use it once and throw it away. you wanted simple. what can be more simple than that?

5. for large reels, respool as often as you wallet will allow. balance this against the formation of corrosion under the mono or spectra if you leave the line on for too long.
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Old 03-26-2005, 03:59 PM   #19
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Default RE: ht-100 drag washers- to grease or not to grease?

Alan,

If I understand Doc Rob's comment.
The grease on the Drag washers
somehow perverts the true purpose
of the drag system.
However by adding the grease to the
drag washers, you improve a flawed
(for lack of a better word)system so
that it will work more reliably, over a
longer period of time.
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Old 03-26-2005, 04:58 PM   #20
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Default RE: ht-100 drag washers- to grease or not to grease?

don't feel bad, i am also unsure about the good doctor's concern. i believe he is concerned about a possible change in performance as the drag washers heat up. there are three possibilities. first, the grease could heat up and then start slipping more. second, the grease could "cook" and the washers could seize up. third, there could be no appreciable change over a normal operating range, or even an extreme range. oh, and i guess the grease could heat up, slip, and then "cook."

i think doc rob acknowledges that shimano drag grease will eliminate the "start up," stuttering or sticking that people experience when reels are cold. that is the main problem that people come to me for. i also recall that he stated that he had never evaluated the shimano product in combination with the penn drags and had no data. but then, i think he has been concerned about cooking the grease all this time. doc?
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