*THE HULL TRUTH is the world's largest FREE network for the discussion of Boating & Fishing. Whether you're researching a new boat, or are a seasoned Captain, you'll find The Hull Truth Boating & Fishing Message Forum contains a wealth of information from Boaters and Sportfishermen around the world.
Welcome to the updated THT!
If you are having trouble signing in, please email feedback@thehulltruth.com with your username and we will help you. We thank you for your patience as we help you access the new site!
hey, hey, hey, wait just a minnit!!!!! you're not going to tell us what you've decided????? and what about patudo? he's the one that actually answered you question!
Alan, thanks for the explaining, it drived me grazy to convert our rod standart rating like 20 to 60 grams casting weight and 200 to 400 grams rating for searods to the LBS line rating you guy's use, besides that it's has never the same outcome it's almost impossible to do.With the small fish overhere I guess it isn't that important.
This way I will know what a rod can or can't do in a simple way and have the most pleasure out of it instead of winching it in
I would do the pound to kilo at 2,1 pond to a kilo thats close to real.
Location: Quebec, Canada and Pirates Cove, OBX, NC
Posts: 17,813
RE: Another TLD question!!
Quote:
marti - 2/11/2005 1:50 AM Alan, thanks for the explaining, it drived me grazy to convert our rod standart rating like 20 to 60 grams casting weight and 200 to 400 grams rating for searods to the LBS line rating you guy's use, besides that it's has never the same outcome it's almost impossible to do.With the small fish overhere I guess it isn't that important. This way I will know what a rod can or can't do in a simple way and have the most pleasure out of it instead of winching it in I would do the pound to kilo at 2,1 pond to a kilo thats close to real.
Kilos to pounds . . . multiply kilos by 2 and then add 10% . . . 1 kilo weights 2.2 lbs . . .
pounds to kilos . . . divide pounds by 2 and then deduct 10%
. . . now I think some sleep is in order . . . good night
well, it's 2:30 am east coast time, only 11:30 west coast time, but i'm already getting punchy. marti, you're welcomed. i'll pass the thanks along to the guy that explained to me. my old fishing sensei (japanese for teacher) is the one that started me thinking in terms of drag pressure first.
dr. rob, i'm sorry, i don't remember the tld gear question. would you mind asking it again? and it seems that i owe you a second apology. i did not see your response on the other thread until this evening regarding the ambassaduer. the ambassaduer lever drags that i looked at were recent models. honestly, the drag washer material really did look like cork. granted, that was last year, but i was sober the entire time. i've got another ambassaduer lever drag in the garage that a guy brought over yesterday. he got nervous when i winced at the sight of that reel. i will crack it open and take a look, but i'm not looking forward to it.
also, i saw in your post that you were making a few parts for your ambassaduers. you have a machine shop? also, how on earth did you get your hands on a sheet of ht-100 material? can i get a lead on some myself? thanks, and i will report on the ambassaduer thread regarding my success (or lack of) with the lever drag ambassaduer in a few days. thank you. alan
My old Shimano TLD25 manual quotes a max drag potential for the reel at 17#. If you bear in mind that if you pull the scale fast you get a higher drag value than if you pull line off slowly, it's not that big a disrepancy between 15 and 17#. Besides, even a honest 15# is quite a lot of pressure to put on a light reel like that. If you're fishing with that level of drag you're going to be using something like 50# line and you're going to be better off with the TLD30 and its low gear, or if fishing a smaller reel, something like a Tiagra 20 or 30. I use the TLD25 for 30# line like it was originally designed to do, and not more than about 8# at strike - I'll fish 40# on it, but purely to gain a little extra abrasion resistance. It's a nice reel for its purpose but it does have limits and trying to push it beyond its performance envelope is only going to result in frustration.
Does it really matter how much drag...what are you trying to catch? You don't need 17# of drag for a bass or blue...as far as those TLD's go for tuna and mahi and whites they suck...they burn out quick ask all the guides in quepos, they got em' piled up for repairs...in fact I smoked two last year striped bass fishing with live bait...they could be a great medium game fish reel but they should not be used in some of the applications noted because they jkust won't handle the abuse...and as far as giving them to a charter, yeah right...give em Penn's and let them destroy em'.....
They're not the best reel for tourist fishing with a bunch of "Griswolds" who have no idea how to fish and could care less about the gear. That's probably why your buddies in Quepos break their reels. For that kind of use, or should I say abuse, International 30s are hard to beat. No question they will outlast any TLD. But for the private angler who doesn't fish 200+ charter days a year and would (hopefully) handle his gear with a lighter touch then they are fine so long as you don't fish them with heavy line they weren't designed for. TLDs are excellent light tackle small billfish reels, light weight, smooth drags and have great freespool for the drop-back. The twospeeds are great but the single speeds are still o.k. There isn't a dorado, sail or white you can't land on a TLD25 if you're a decent angler backed up by a half decent skipper, and as for tuna one of my old skippers boated a bigeye tuna in the 130-140# class after a three hour fight on a TLD25 in 2003. No doubt, you wouldn't really want to take on tuna after tuna that size with a reel like that, but very good effort nonetheless.
Thanks Alan for reminding me, and thank you Patudo as well. I decided to go with the two 113h's that I currently have on flat lines pulling cedar plugs or small jet heads. I will run two TLD 20's off of the short riggers pulling green machines or daisy chains, and two TLDII 30's off of the long rigger, probably pulling spreader bars. I looked at a combo on the TLD 20. It had a Shimano Tallus 7' 30-50 lb rod. 30-50 is what I want, but 7' feet seems a bit long. Also the same combo but with a TLD 15 was $10 bucks more. The shop owner couldn't explain it, but said that was the way the pricing came through. I am also picking up a new Calcutta 400e in March when Shimano comes out with the updated version. I think they are adding two more bearings if I am not mistaken. Nice reel for casting to school dolphin. I have one now, the older model, and it has held up great.
Mike
TLD gears? Actually it was your question, Alan. It was an AC thread a
couple of years ago. Something about you having come into a whole
epidemic of broken gears in TLDs. Just wondering how it ended.
I do indeed have a machine shop, and a considerable amount of drag components and material testing has been conducted; thereof the access to HT-100.
Ambassadeur reel parts are hardly my specialty, but offshore reel engineering is.
Beyond the one-piece frame and other drivetrain components, I don't
have any particular Abu plans. This was just for fun.
Regarding a source of HT-100, we don't tell anyone, as a professional courtesy. Penn has worked very hard to keep their secret and promote their product, and have done very well for themselves. I see no need to ruin it for them. And, what materials other manufacturers use, is none of my business.
I'll let you in on something, though- It is relatively expensive stuff. To buy a sheet would be a considerable investment.
I don't mean to be rude, but you want to know where to buy HT-100? From Penn! Ready cut, almost any size, any quantity, 100% genuine, available through the mail or internet, at a bargain price ! What a deal!
Subject: "tld 15 problems" 1 | 2 | Search result list | First match | Last match
alantani Mon Jun-23-03 09:55 AM
Member since Jun 10th 2002
72 posts
#0, "tld 15 problems"
i fix reels as a hobby up here in the great tuna void, northern california. in the last 4 months, i've received six shimano tld 15's with shredded main and pinion gears. the guys must be loading them up with too much drag to fight those monster tomcods we have. when i get the reel, it feels like a coffee grinder when i crank it. i replace the main and pinion gears and it's smooth again. i spoke to robert at shimano, ordered another pair of main and pinion gears to return to inventory and asked him if this a common problem. he said no.
i have questions for my southern california brethren. how many of you use tld 15's, what line weight and drag setting do you use, how many of you have had gear problems, what's the fix, and, lastly, what's the deal with shimano? thanks, alan.
boy, that was a long, long time ago. i don't think i ever did figure it out. it has not been a problem since. like so many other things, i just moved on to the next problem, and the next one, and the next one, and the next one.... you get the idea. it was probably shortly thereafter that i stopped posting on allcoast. i'm sure you are aware that it can be a less than friendly place and i was probably too thin skinned for that type of environment. at that time i was also just trying to assess how good the penn drag/shimano grease combination really was. since them i've made my decision.
so gentlemen, just so everyone is aware, i really am a pharmacist. don't laugh! i'm serious. just a pharmacist. no industry affiliations at all. i'm also a fishing fanatic. but what i do best is to take a broken down reel and make it work again. it's just a matter of time, imagination and a little inventory. compared to guys like cal sheets, i'm just a hack. and i certainly do not have a machine shop.
but dr. rob, looks like you do! since we've got you on the line, can you offer any insight that might reconcile my clinical observations in the field with current manufacturing recommendations. to the point, what do you think of the greased carbon fiber drags? there are very few reel guys that do this. most do not. i have my suspicions as to why not, but i am always open to discussing the issue. why is it that i have such a long and unbroken string of success, whereas dealers and shops (particularly on allcoast) tow the party line and stick with dry drags?
as for my reason for wanting to obtain sheets of penn's thin single layer carbon fiber material, it's simple. i'm trying to fix a fishing reel! i can fit a carbon fiber drag into almost any reel. note that i said almost any.... the exception that i am most concerned with is the trinidad and torium 30/40. i have three layer ht-100's that have a large enough diameter, but they are so thick that the side plate won't fit on. if i can get a sheet of the thin carbon material, i can punch out drags to fit the trinidad and torium. at the current time, i can fit three thick ht washers in the trinidad and have to leave one thin dartanium inside. i want to fit four ht's.
so, my good doctor, how is it that you would remember a post from so long ago?
Alan,
I worked on drags as an apprentice 40 years ago when a penn jigmaster was wow, and thrifty drug stores were the first discount retailer of reels.
But even then it was common knowlege in the trades that these dry carbon drags would burn and harden if a large fish took line at some real speed. Hence the Senator 12/0 that we all used to haul down to cabos when you could spot finning marlin from the beach in front of the the 1st new hotel, the Finesterra.
Now spectra, small reels and standup gear out of small fast boats is the game and these small diameter drag washers that burr and burn even faster as we ask them to do the impossible without lubrication.
Hence the birth of mini shops like Cal Sheets that charge $400 to blueprint and service reels, while you would probably do better to toss your reel if she starts to groan, and replace it with another $50 jigmaster.
Why do they continue burn without grease? Why do the reel fabricators have the raw material tied up? Well I don't want to expose any deep secrets, but these are just informed business decisions, aren't they?
Bull, didn't Penn introduce carbon fiber in their drags some time later, like around 1985? Maybe you were thinking of the earlier composite friction material that could quite easily get a charred glaze on the surface. Whatever. Indeed, always a source of debate.
Alan, about the Trini washers... I think Jack E or Cal or Hawk beat you to it. It was on the AC board a while back. Dawn Geiter at Smoooth Drag would know. And about the Wet-vs-Dry thing... No, I'm anti-grease. Here is a rerun post (too lazy to write all this drivel again) on why. Opinion has not changed much. Duly noted, I haven't tried Cal's new drag grease, which seems to have changed the opinion of a few learned folks.
"I think "I dunno" is a good place to start, but can back it up by saying that the operating parameters of any drag system are so numerous that any obtained results from testing are liable to become moot as a result of any variable pertaining to above-mentioned operating parameters. Angular velocity, pressure, material, lubricant, shoe size, opposing surface...
A huge variable in the equation is the lubricant. Grease can be composed of any number of ingredients, for any number of applications. Some are hi-temp, some are not. I haven't a clue what Shimano's is made of.
I do know, however, that similar studies conducted by myself under controlled circumstances with a torque measuring device under rotation at a range of speeds, temperatures and pressures have shown results differing from Jack's. Quite the opposite was found- the drag remained smooth and constant throughout.
Mind you, this was with a certain drag material, with a certain lubricant, in a certain amount. None of these came from Shimano or Penn, which negates the first part of your question. Furthermore, if any of these variables were to change, so would the results, by a factor of three.
Other testing with other lubricants showed rather erratic performance, with a sharply decreased level of drag with increased temperature.
Sooo...I dunno. The industrial world of friction is much larger than just fishing reels. A motorcyle clutch for instance can sometimes be run in a bath of oil, and remain constant. Ceramic dragster clutches are used dry. Perhaps someone at Bendix, BF Goodrich or ABS would be able to provide a more developed answer.
Bolle Sun Dec-15-02 03:04 PM
Member since Apr 01st 2002
95 posts
#9, "RE: Shimano Vs Penn Drags"
In response to Reply # 8
Hi,Dr.Rob. Spot on if anybody can ever tabulate all the unknown variables that take place with such testing procedures, I'll take my hat off to them. My testing on a more scientific basis was conducted on an Electronic Computerised Torque or Drag Testing Machine I had built while working in Engineering & New Product Development at Tycoon Fin-Nor in Fort Lauderdale when i was living in the U.S.A. some 5 years ago. As stated these tests were conducted on Carbon Fibre Based Friction Materials in both a natural Dry, & Wet or Lubricated state in several brands of Reels. & as the good Doctor Rob so rightly say's there can be conflicting reports with other types of Friction materials & types of Lubrications.
As I was only interested in the Dry verus Wet debate my major efforts were concentrated around this scenario & the results showed convincely the problem of "Accelleration" associatted with Wet Drags & the varing amount of Differential that could be obtained between Slow Speed Running Drags & Hi-Speed Running Drags Potentials.
This could vary considerably dependant on many factors , such as speed change rate from stationery to fast , stop & start during speed change, as a fish would when making a run, amount of line off the spool ( as diameter decrees's drag increases) how the temperature range changed ( checked with a thermal sensor) Viscousity changes in the Lubricant whether Dacron line or Mono . Mono had a rubber band effect of stretch & snatch causing peaks & spikes on the Graph print Out & dependant on different tests, High & Lows, Peaks & Drop -Off's were common, & effected by the many variables allready mentioned * heaven knows how many more factors i have not taken into the equation. Try these tests at Sea under actual Fishing conditions which can give totally varing results to Work Shop or Lab tests and are far more critical, as this is where the end results are the most important, however what ever the testing we carried out , I was positively convinced that the Dry Drag System ( Using exactly the same Drag System Components for each individual Test ) proved beyond doubt to be far more consistant in all stages of Drag operation & certainly with a much lower Accelleration Factor. ( As low as 1KG-2KG. on A 130LB. Class Reel with a Strike Drag setting of 20KG's. ) & much more consistant, As a matter of fact as Carbon Fibre becomes heated under sustained drag operations ,it tends to become more "slicker" & frictional value actually can drop , a reversal of other materials & assists to combat the ever changing factors taking place inside the Reel during the Heat of the Battle.
One replier very correctly stated that Lubrication was used to ensure to insure smooth "Break -Away " & reduce Inertia problems, which it does & gives a very Smooth Drag, however the associatted problems far outway this factor in my opinion. Another problem I have encounted was when 1 Major Reel Mfg' decided to fit a Cork Composition Friction Material Ddrag Washer to their Reel & treated same with Lubrication, that not only was the "Accelleration" a problem , but in thus case with the 60KG. Class Reel with the Strike Drag set at the customary 20Kg. when a large Marlin was hooked & during the fight where the fish had settled down & the angler was at a stalemate to recover line with the fish down digging, it was noted that at a very slow speed the drag was releasing & creeping off at a lower rate than the 20Kg. Preset Value, I checked it after the fish was caught & even though the 20KG. value was reasonably constant when pulled on with accurate Spring Balance at the normal checking speed, By applying increasing pressure very slowly it could be seen that the Drag would release line & "Creep- Off " at a much lower value of 12KG. Not what you would call ideal under such circumstances from one extreme to another. With a properly designed drag system & the selection of the right materials, to-day's Dry Drag System as as good as it Get's. In the future with the introduction of Ceramic & other Exotic Space Age Materials we will see further improvement's again, We are along way away from where we were 20 years ago in Fishing Tackle Technology.I hope this sheds some more light on this complex situation. Best Regards. Jack Erskine. Precision. Reel. Engineering. Cairns. Australia.
Dr Rob Sun Dec-15-02 11:06 PM
Member since Mar 25th 2004
22 posts
#10, "RE: Shimano Vs Penn Drags"
In response to Reply # 9
G'morning, Jack.
Yeah, indeed. Sometimes I feel as though we're flogging a dead horse in our quest for The Perfect Drag. The materials we're using now are so much at the forefront of technology as to be considered cutting edge. I don't really know why we insist on pursuing a material that may or may not further reduce frictional deviations by a few percent. The materials we have now are nearly perfect.
If anything, greater attention may be aimed at the construction of the drag unit itself. As it stands, reels have a very rudimentary form of slipping clutch, using only the fewest possible number of components needed to get the job done. (Which is understandable from a manufacturing point of view, since anything less simple only complicates things further. And adds to the number of axioms to which variables may be applied)
In a broader scope, any number of drag arrangements have been tried, from hydraulically controlled to fluid viscous to turbines to multidisc friction to hydraulically compensated single disc friction...the list is long, but seems to end where we stand now. Aside from the Manufacturer's arguments for their own super-duper product, we have a very limited range of configurations to choose from. Naming names, Shimano's is very much like Penn's, Accurate's is the same but rearranged, Everol's is pilfered from a motorcycle, and Duel's is pilfered from an Everol. And they all share a similar drag material, choosing to direct their attention towards the finer points of their individually chosen composite.
It seems like the very fine degrees to which we've honed our drag materials exceed the much greater variables outside the reel's operating parameters. Like the resistance in rod rollers, or a bucking boat in rough seas, or a jerking fish, or a jerking angler, or a stiff rod, or crappy weather.
BUT this thread was about wet & dry drag, so I'll move back towards that.
Funny you should mention the line-creep phenomenon. I noticed it too, but attributed it to simply having found a material that offered a lower static coefficient than dynamic, however that happened. Really, I was delighted, as the difference was very small in terms of poundage, and ocurred at very low velocities. The overall effect was one of having an incredibly smooth drag.
This was a Carbon Fiber material, by the way, of somewhat greater density and alternative weave compared to those found in reels today, and used wet. Performance overall was as may be expected of CF- a slightly saddlebacked curve across the X & Y graph, from 20 to maybe 300 degrees centigrade.
However, I have an inherent dislike of wet systems, as it only adds to the number of ingredients in the pot. And of course, the usual thing about axioms and variables. Better to toss it out altogether. (My motto: Best way to do something difficult is to not do it at all.)
Like you said, the dry drags we have today are as good as it gets. Lets enjoy them, and if the future turns up something better we can deal with it then.
Gotta go.
Doc."
I have to say I am really impressed with the technical knowledge of reels and drags that has been presented. If you guys wrote a book with phots, diagrams, and instructions so a complete novice could follow it, I'd spend $20 for it. Something to consider.
With bending rods, stretching lines, big up and down movement from swells and fish moving in a fluid medium makes this drag smoothness kind of moot, and moves me to think how we just should double them up on both sides of the spool and also increase their diameters and surface areas to create less friction and heat, making them last longer with less maintenance, and that what the OEM's are doing, right?
dr. rob, thank you for your thorough response. your professionalism has not gone unnoticed. i printed out the responses because i wish to go over them in detail before i respond. thank you for taking the time to discuss this issue with us. alan
All right, but don't take it too seriously. There is a lot of technical bla bla up there. I mean, a lot of it doesn't really apply to the real-world scenario. What're ya gonna do, have a ceramic spool in an Ambassadeur @ 80 000 RPM? Doesn't happen in real life... Reel is what it is, and if you are having success with the tricks you're using now, I say go for it. Enjoy.
dr. rob, i read through your posts with great interest. am i too far off in assuming that these issues of accelleration, fade or creep will impact one fisherman in a thousand? or ten thousand? that might be close to the number of fisherman that have the opportunity to fight a 1,000 pound marlin. in this setting, i will defer to you and your research and accept that the drag combinations you have evaluated to this point will perform better if dry. at some point, i would be very curious to have you evaluate the combination of an ht-100 drag washer and a light coating of shimano drag grease. i, too, would like to know what this stuff is made of. but i have more modest goals.
i am most interested in average weekend fisherman whose gear has been rode hard and put away wet. my goal is to find a drag combination that stays smooth even if abused. i have to reconcile two field observations. one is regular failure rate from ambassaduer (dry), daiwa (greased felt), okuma (dry), penn (carbon fiber dry), pfleuger (dry), progear (dry), quantum (dry), shakespeare (dry) and shimano (dry canvas, greased canvas and greased dartanium). the second observation is a zero failure rate from all the reels that i have serviced over the last 5 years, possibly a thousand a year, using penn ht-100 drags and shimano drag grease. i would also add an observed zero failure rate from the tld II and tiagra (greased carbon fiber) on the part of the shimano service department. i do not know what research results cal sheets has with his own grease. i unfortuately have no data, only clinical observation.
on the academic side of my line of work, we are called upon to evaluate the data and conclusions found in the medical literature. you would be amazed at the number of times that a claim is made in the medical literature that is totally unsubstantiated by the data. so what i need is data. to obtain data, i need a study. to perform a study, i need a study design, this is where you come in. i have several ideas already, but your input would be invaluable. what type of data needs to be produced to gain acceptance by industry? basically, what kind of data would change your mind? alan
RE: Another TLD question!! 
photob
ucket.com 
