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Atlanti,
While I appreciate your good natured and informative post, , I have to say that I disagree with your assement.
I have owned 113's. 114's for over 40 years, and have replaced them with lever drag tld 25's and 50's. I couldn't be happier.
The tlds are smoother, lighter, can be adjusted during a fight to bring the fish to the boat faster, can be bought in 1 or 2 speed versions, and are especially good for billfishing. And they have operated flawlessly on over 50 trips, with just a wash down, and no further lubrication or service.
So while I liked my senators over the years, they have no been sold to less fortunates, as these Shimaos TLD25's and Shimano TLD50LRSII's are in a very superior class of reels, and they cost the same.
i actually have both. i use the 4/0 yts' for straight 30# mono. the standard width 4/0 straight 40# mono. both sets of 4/0's have accurate frames, penn international 30 handles, drag grease and the drags are set at 33%. the two speed tld 20's have spectra and a 50# topshot. the two speed 30's have a 60# topshot. both reels have aftermarket handles, drags again set to 33%. the tld 50 lrs has spectra and an 80# topshot, drags set a little lower to 30%. i have not had a problem with the graphite frames but i am considering an aftermarket aluminum frame. bearings on all the reels have been cleaned and relubed, belvilles on all have been shimmed to extend the drag range. this is a pretty standard arsenal for a 5-10 day long range trip out of san diego.
As I have posted on this board before, my last two TLD 15s are made in Malaysia and are harder to crank and not quite as smooth as my two Japan made reels. I just ordered a TLD 25 for my wife and it is also made in Malaysia. She has been using a 505 Jigmaster with Accurate frame for her bottom rig and wanted one just a little bigger.
I have always soaked my Penn reels in a bucket of fresh water a couple a times a season just to dissolve any salt that has gotten inside, Never had a problem. I got the bright idea to soak the Shimanos and the drags were so sticky I couldn't use them until I took them apart and air dryed the drag washers. They went back to working smooth again.
I use the TLD 15s for live bait King fishing with 2 LBS of drag. They are great reels for this but if I get one dunked I take it out of use til I can take it down for inspection and cleaning. As Pu-Pu N BOX would have said, THATS WHAT I DO.
Ken
it probably would not have made a difference, but did you dunk them while in gear or in free spool.....?
ken, since you are obviously capable of finding your way around these reels, you might try something. pull off the side plate from the tld 15's. now remove the handle, pop out the stainless steel gear, clean it up a little and lube it with corrosion x. now take a little fine grit emery paper and clean out the brass sleeve that the gear's drive shaft fits into. not too much, now. you will probalbly find alot of hardened grease. lube it up as well, reinstall the handle and you should now find that the handle turns freely.
as for the jigmaster issue, everyone should have a machine shop buddy. my machine shop buddy made a stainless steel gear sleeve and then bored out his accurate side plate and installed a bearing. he turned his 25# mono jigmaster into a true 40# (maybe 50#) reel. it's amazing how spectra is allowing us to change the way we fish! check out the photos....
Thanks for the tip on the TLD sleeve, I'll work on them this weekend.That is some fancy machine work on that Jigmaster, if only he could put an anti-reverse bearing to take out some of the lost motion he would have a baby International.
I just open the levers, use a slow running hose to was them, leave the levers open so that they dry, and fish them. If I feel somthing getting sticky or tight in the future, I will service and lube them, but they are flawless after two years of use, and I don't mess with stuff that doesn't need it.
Thanks for posting some very informative*messages. In an earlier post you mentioned that you thought the lever drag reel was inherently inferior to a star drag system...In what regard? For whatever reason, i thought that it was the opposite...(don't*know why, I just assume so. I can't even take my TLD apart without endind up with lots of spare parts...)
notus23, to answer your question directly, there is nothing inherently wrong with a lever drag system. they tend to be more finicky to work on, but that's it. you are correct, i did say "inferior" and i apologize. that is clearly not the case. it has simply been a source of personal aggravation to have to work on lever drag reels so hard to get them to perform up to specs. star drag reels are so easy.
there are some basic differences that should be addressed. let's start with an analogy on performance. remember when rear-entry downhill ski boots were all the rage? now we're back to the 4 buckle design. re-entry boots gave no stability. just because a design is new it does not make it better. now look at reliability. an m-16 is sleek, accurate and powerful. cheap ammo or 1 speck of dust and it jams. now you can barely hit the broad side of a barn with an ak-47, but you can drag an ak- through jungle muck, rice paddy mud or desert sand and come up firing every time. i look for simplicity and reliability. given a choice between a porche and a truck, i'd take a truck anytime.
let's compare two stock reels, straight out of the box. how about a stock penn 113h versus a single speed shimano tld 20?
price - penn, $99.99, shimano $149.99 at bass pro shops.
line capacity - penn 475 yards of 30# mono, shimano 450 yds of 30# mono.
gear ratio - penn brass 3.25:1 (optional 4:1 stainless steel gears for $40), shimano 3.6:1, stainless.
freespool - no significant difference.
bearings - penn has two at $15 total. shimano three in the spool and one in the right side plate for a total of $40
spool mass - i'll have to find a scale to tell you by how much, but the penn is slightly lighter. lower spool mass means that you have to overcome less rotational inertial and you can cast farther. remember this always!!! if the bearings are clean, the spool dimensions are the same, line weight is the same and the skill of the fisherman is the same, then spool mass is the only variable left that determines casting distance. all other things being equal, the penn 113h will cast just a little farther than the tld 20. most could never tell the difference.
frame - penn half circle graphite frames have no failures that i know of, but it is possible. there is an accurate full cage aluminum frame upgrade for $65 that eliminates any possibility of failure. the shimano tld single speed graphite frame has no failures that i know of. there is a tiburon aluminum frame upgrade for the tld 20 two speed, but no such upgrade for the single speed reel. if you are harnessed in and the drags stick and surge, it is possible to crack the frame.
cranking - penn is embarassingly sloppy, way too much play in the handle and the gears, like an ak-47. the shimano stainless steel drive shaft rides in a brass sleeve with very little play, the gears are tight and true.
handle - penn has a modestly adequate two position power handle. the handle from the penn international (#24-30tw) fits nicely. you also need a handle lock plate (#110a-50) and a screw (#110-50) for a total of $28. http://www.scottsbt.com/ the shimano tld 20 single speed handle is an absolute joke. my friend made a nice handle $30, but the t-bar manufacturer threatened to sue, so he stopped. i have only a few left. after that, the only option is a "t-bar lite" for 39.95, which is really no better than the stock penn 4/0- power handle. http://www.charkbait.com/cs/csrararule.htm
drag washer type and reliability - penn has a 5-stack of ht-100 carbon fiber drags. if you back off the drags and salt water gets inside, the drags corrode and fail immediately. leaving the drags buttoned down provides some minimal protection from water intrusion. shimano has a canvas drag in a sealed drag chamber. leave the reel in gear to seal off the drag chamber. if the reel is in free spool, there is a small gap between the drag pressure plate and the spool cap to allow the two to spin independently. the gap is small, but water intrusion at this critical time is how these drags fail. THIS IS WHY SOME GUYS HAVE CONSTANT PROBLEMS AND OTHER GUYS DON'T!!!!!!
drag washer reliability upgrades - penn ht-100 drag washers coated with shimano teflon star drag grease give the penn senator 113h absolute reliability, forever, and ever, and ever. shimano canvas drags fail immediately upon contact with salt water, oil or grease. my standard upgrade is to grind down the $10 drag washer from the shimano tld 20 two speed to fit the single speed spool, apply a liberal coat of star drag grease, wipe off the excess and reassemble the reel. this gives the single speed tld 20 the same absolute reliability as the two speed tld 20.
extended drag range - wet or dry, grease or no grease, the penn 113h has a maximum drag setting of 25#'s. or at least that is what i require of all reels that i service before they are returned to their owners. the stock shimano has a max drag at strike of 13-14#'s. re-shimming the bellevilles (described previously) will increase that range by a max of 50%. DRAG SETTINGS IN EXCESS OF 20#'S ARE ASSOCIATED WITH FRAME FAILURE. note that a sticky canvas drag can surge beyond 20#'s as well.
corrosion - horrible corrosion from cheap chrome over brass has been the standard at penn for as long as they have made reels. shimano has only the quadrant ($5) and the handle ($25) to corrode. maintenance recommendations have been discussed in previous posts. i will add that i can tell alot about a man by the condition of his reels.
service rquirements - i can totally tear down, service and rebuild a stock penn 113h or tld 20 in 20 minutes. they're the same.
recommended upgrades - to give a new stock penn 113h near absolute reliability, i would tear the reels down, lube the bearings with corrosion x, grease the drags with shimano grease, and grease the screw holes and all the non-exposed metal surfaces with blue yamaha engine grease. stock price is $100. to bring the shimano up to the same level of reliability, i need to replace the canvas washer with greased carbon fiber ($10), replace the thin bellevilles with heavy duty bellevilles ($2), and clean and lube the bearings. i would also have to add a t-bar lite handle ($40) for a total of $202. this is why i feel that the lowly penn 113h offers the best value.
so gentlemen, i am glad that at least some of you have managed to read through my entire post. i hope you have found some value in it. if you have to fish these two reels straight out of the box, you have to deal with penn's dry drags or shimano's dinky handle. find someone willing to do custom reel work for you, or learn to do it yourself. my point is, you do not have to put up with bad tackle. you, all of you, can do better. you most certainly deserve better. thank you. alan tani
To answer the original poster.. If you are chartering and the reels will be taking a lot of abuse, get the TLD 2/20s as they will handle clients mishandling them a bit better. For private use it really doesn't matter, but the low gear is always nice to have if you do hook a bigger fish. You could easily be happily trolling along trying for dorado and smaller tunas and then a 100+ bluefin or yellowfin gulps down a ballyhoo.. Sure you can land them on a single speed reel, but the low gear does make a difference on a stubborn fish if you know how to work it, even on 30# line.
I don't know much about other types of fishing, but lever reels by virtue of their design have real advantages for trolling, especially billfishing. It's difficult to know precisely how much drag you have on a star reel, but with a lever reel you do. When trolling baits you can back the drag right off so that you are almost in freespool for the bite, then put the drag up to strike to set the hook. If you've hooked a wild doubleheader you can back off the drag if he's gone too far away, and then get back up to strike position to work the fish, then if he's being difficult you can add more drag while still knowing how much drag you're using because you'll have checked with a scale how much drag you've got at strike and full settings. It's much more difficult to adjust your drag settings during the fight with a star reel, you're depending much more on experience and feel. If you are billfishing a TLD is simply much superior to a 4/0 and there's no question about it.
I fish 20 to 30# line on a TLD20, strike drag just below six pounds for 20, just under eight for 30 - the reel handles it just fine and I've never found the handle difficult to fish (although the 2 speeds do have a more user friendly handle). I've always used them stock, never felt that they needed enhancement. But, if you're one of these guys that insists on pushing them to their limit then I can see the handle and various other parts would be somewhat inadequate.
To answer the original poster.. If you are chartering and the reels will be taking a lot of abuse, get the TLD 2/20s as they will handle clients mishandling them a bit better. For private use it really doesn't matter, but the low gear is always nice to have if you do hook a bigger fish. You could easily be happily trolling along trying for dorado and smaller tunas and then a 100+ bluefin or yellowfin gulps down a ballyhoo.. Sure you can land them on a single speed reel, but the low gear does make a difference on a stubborn fish if you know how to work it, even on 30# line.
I don't know much about other types of fishing, but lever reels by virtue of their design have real advantages for trolling, especially billfishing. It's difficult to know precisely how much drag you have on a star reel, but with a lever reel you do. When trolling baits you can back the drag right off so that you are almost in freespool for the bite, then put the drag up to strike to set the hook. If you've hooked a wild doubleheader you can back off the drag if he's gone too far away, and then get back up to strike position to work the fish, then if he's being difficult you can add more drag while still knowing how much drag you're using because you'll have checked with a scale how much drag you've got at strike and full settings. It's much more difficult to adjust your drag settings during the fight with a star reel, you're depending much more on experience and feel. If you are billfishing a TLD is simply much superior to a 4/0 and there's no question about it.
I fish 20 to 30# line on a TLD20, strike drag just below six pounds for 20, just under eight for 30 - the reel handles it just fine and I've never found the handle difficult to fish (although the 2 speeds do have a more user friendly handle). I've always used them stock, never felt that they needed enhancement. But, if you're one of these guys that insists on pushing them to their limit then I can see the handle and various other parts would be somewhat inadequate.
captain, there is absolutely no doubt that the tld two speeds hold up better and perform better then the single speed tld's or the senators, but at a price. i use the tld two speeds myself. we had a newbie on board one trip and landed 15 albacore in quick succession. the nube had to land the first 7 fish. midway through the 4th fish, i could not tell if he had sweat or tears streaming down his face. we finally took pity on him and showed him the low gear button......
regarding the issue of adjusting the drag during a fight, i must ask for your understanding. i am not familiar with your style of fishing. because we fish from a stationary platform (long range boat at anchor), the drags are set to the max at the beginning. if an inexperienced fisherman tells me that he wants to increase the drag during a fight, my response is that he does not have the drag set high enough to begin with. i look for 33% of line weight. please understand, captain, that this is a COMMON problem on the west coast. i will admit, however, that there are those fisherman that are physically strong enough to muscle in a fish at "full." these stronger fishermen will bring a tuna up to 50-100 feet where the tuna will start to do his death spiral. at that point, they will push the drag lever to full and crank with all their strength to bring the fish to the gaff. i am only 5'8" and 160 pounds. this is simply not an option for me.
as far as 20 to 30# mono on a tld 20 single speed, you are fishing the reel well within specs. i am please but not surprised you have had no problem. please read the next post rod selection. it is something i wrote earlier. you will find some of these issues addressed and may find them to be of interest. i greatly appreciate your comments. thank you. alan
here is a response to an e-mail from someone in europe asking about how to determine what line weight to use on an unmarked rod. the conversion is 2.2 pounds per kg and very roughly 3.2 feet per meter. i hope i din't screw up any of the conversions.
"martin, my friend, i welcome your questions. there is a little math to be done. you need paper, a pencil, and an assortment of 1 kg weights. for lighter rods, use a 4 liter (4kg) plastic jug the you can simply fill with water for the desired amount of weight.
if we need to establish the proper rating for a rod, here is the proceedure....
1. place any reel on the rod with any heavy line (it does not matter). run the line through the guides and tie the water jug at the end. place the rod in a holder of some sort so that the rod butt rests at a 45 degree angle. now add water or weight until the rod bends to a desired flex.
i personally want the rod tip to bend until the tip is even with the butt cap of the rod. you may desire more or less. it depends upon the type of rod and your personal preferences.
2. now measure or total up the weight. let's say that you have a medium weight rod that flexes to a desired amount with only 5 kg. you have now determined the proper drag setting for your rod.
3. now choose a line weight. different people have different preferences. you may fish as heavy a drag setting as 33% or as light as 25%. anything more risks line breakage. anything less is wasted unless line abrasion resistence is a concern. with a desired 5kg drag setting at a 25%, you need a 20kg line.
4. now chose a line capacity. you may choose 100, 200, 300, 400 or 500 meters. what fish can take a 100 meter run on you if the drags are properly set? how long is a football field in europe? why in the world would anyone need 500 meters of line for fish under 30kg? i'll tell you why. in the vast majority of situations, it is lack of confidence and low drag settings. very few fishermen actually check the drag settings with a scale. i'm sorry that this is so harsh, but unless the fish is larger than 5 times the line weight, i see no excuse for getting "spooled." in open water, you typically fight a 20kg fish with only the first 100 meters of 20kg mono. in moving water or fish up to twice the line rating, 150 meters. fish beyond 5 times the line weight are beyond the limit of my experience. add what ever amount of extra mono or spectra you wish. i use 300 meters for smaller tuna, 500 meters for the big ones. personally, on my long range trips, i fish with 400 meters of 36kg spectra and a 150 meter topshot of 27kg mono, drags set at 9kg at strike, for fish up to 100kg. the san diego boats fish at anchor, so my platform is stationary. if you have the option to back down a fish, you could use less.
5. now pick the size of the reel. are you fishing with straight mono or spectra with a mono topshot. what ever the situation, you pick the size of the spool to fit the required amount of line.
6. now, did you pick a reel with a large spool but not enough strength in the side plate? good examples of this are the tld 20 and 25 single speed reels. a tld 20 single speed will hold about 300 meters of straight 18kg mono and deliver 6kg (33%) of drag before losing freespool. a tld 25 will hold 300 meters of 23# but delivers the same 6kg (now 25%) drag before losing freespool. the tld 25 is a good example of too much spool and not enough side plate.
Different fisheries quite simply have different requirements. If you are casting a livebait a short distance to feeding fish you will need less line than if you are trolling a long outrigger or center rigger bait 100 yards behind the boat. You want more line reserve so that when you cut back your line because of abrasion, stress after a long or difficult fight, or sunlight damage, you still have a decent amount of line left on the reel. You also want that reserve in case you do hook an unexpectedly big fish. It's quite true that on say a TLD30 filled with 30 or 40 pound line, you'll hardly ever see a white marlin or school tuna take off much more than half your spool if the drag is set correctly. But, if a blue marlin eats the same lure or bait, he might dump that half spool in a flash. You need that line reserve to prevent him from spooling you while you turn the boat and start going after him.
I think party boat fishermen need more drag and heavier line to stop their fish quickly; those fishing from smaller sport fishermen can land the same or bigger fish on lighter line because of their ability to chase and work the fish with the boat, but need more line to avoid being spooled on the initial run, especially on trolled fish. If you're on a party boat casting to fish that have been chummed up close to the boat, you'll have a good idea what size fish you're dealing with and can match your tackle accordingly. But if you're trolling the next bite could come from a 20 to 30 pound dorado, a 60 to 100 pound yellowfin or a blue marlin of 200 or 250 pounds. You can land all these fish with the same TLD30 outfit. You'll need some smart boat handling and good angling to be successful on the blue, to be sure. But if you don't have enough line the battle will end right away in round one.
As for increasing drag during the fight, most trollers set a light to medium drag for the bite because trolled fish often hit a fast moving lure or bait very hard. Too much drag on the bite and you're vey likely to bust off. You won't need to go beyond strike drag for a small or average fish but if you hook a good one, you're going to find it difficult to move the fish and get line back when he starts dogging it. You don't want to be in the situation where you are lifting the rod trying to move the fish, but the drag is slipping off the reel as you do so. Nothing is happening at the fish end, he's resting while you're tiring yourself out. Adding a little extra drag, whether it's by increasing the reel drag or sometimes by thumbing the line or the side of the spool, can make a huge difference in being able to get line back, and thereby win the fight.
captmj, you just got your answer. a set of shimano tld two speeds. patudo, your answer was concise and informative. thank you very much. and skipper, if you ever need any reel work done, let me know. alan
notus, you're welcomed! and remember i said that there is nothing inherantly wrong with a lever drag design? well, i'm about to take that back. i've worked on many tld 20/25 single speeds, re-shimming the bellevilles and changing out the drags to carbon fiber. never had a problem. it's quick and easy. well, right now i have four brand new ones on the bench and i can't get the drag past 14#'s at strike before the stupid things start to stick!!!! it's been driving me nuts. i actually called shimano and asked if they made any changes. they said no, but i noticed that there is a huge amount of play in the pressure plate assembly. i'm wondering if they changed something and didn't tell anyone. i'm going to have to find someone that has an old one that i worked on.
did i mention that my 6 year old has the flu and my 10 year old just broke her arm playing soccer last night? geez, what a week!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Alan,
My new tld25's will only get 14-15 lbs of drag before the spools start stick a little on free spool. Just a reference number so that you know what new in box factory numbers are.
roger that. simply shimming the bellvilles brought a tld 30 two speed up from 18#'s to 23#'s at strike yesterday. i have absolutely no clue what's wrong with these single speed tld's. i've been at it all afternoon and nothing's working. i've even tried putting the canvas drag back in.
RE: Another TLD question!! 
