Ethanol added to fuel Bad News for Marine engines - The Hull Truth

RIP RYDER · 03-25-2006, 05:28 PM

I dropped my boat off yesterday for Spring start up and was informed of the problems of Ethanol being added to fuel for marine engines.
I have been hearing how Massachusetts is going to have fuel with more ethanol, going from 10% to 30%, which in other states has shown to cause problems with marine engines do to the amount of water in the fuel on board boats. Lots of stalling problems and plain old just not running due to ethanol bringing the water right to the engines. Ethanol is used in dry gas so it goes looking for water in the fuel.
Both Conn. and California boaters faced many nightmares from this. I was told to carry extra water seperators and elelments for my outboard motors. I have a new boat coming. so I guess the first job will be to put a nice big clam shell over the fuel vent to try and stay ahead of the game with the new tank.

Maybe some of the folks from Conn. can bring some light and further info on this problem.
Leave it to good old Massachusetts to ignore other states findings. I was told the other states stopped using the higher Ethanol, because some of todays high tech vehicles didn't like it so much either. Mass also considering adding it to Diesel fuel according to talk radio.

Might want to ask your marine engine techs what they have heard and what their thoughts are on the issue.

Capt Keith

John_Madison CT · 03-25-2006, 05:34 PM

Yes, it was a nightmare in CT. Boats with older fuel systems where especially hit hard. I had a 1988 Whaler and the Ethanol fuel dissolved all kinds of stuff in the system and it got caught up in my engines Fuel Injection pump filter.

CAPTJohnny · 03-26-2006, 10:36 AM

Yes you can also see the road stations advertising "WINTER MIX" to rig drivers here in NJ

Fishegg · 03-27-2006, 09:01 AM

I thought the issue was with the ethanol dissolving the resins in the old fiberglass gas tanks? Have you seen reports of it damaging engine components? I know there were engine symptoms but ultimately it was caused by fouling from broken down fiberglass resins. I'd like to hear more, up my way in MA all the stations have the %10 mix already.

My Yamaha manual says anything up to %10 ethanol is OK.

jbg108 · 03-27-2006, 09:19 AM

New Honda Automobiles are only recomended to run on a mix up to 10%. Anything over 10% will void warrantys. I believe 10% is what we are going to have in Mass. I'm giveing Sorenti a phone call today to find out. They supply me with gasoline for my underground tank. If it is more than 10% I'll post an update later today.

lilarry · 03-27-2006, 06:57 PM

I've done some looking into this having experienced some serious ethanol related problems. The primary issue is that the ethanol loosens accumulated resins and gunk that have built up on the inside walls of your fuel tanks. The loosened gunk then clogs fuel filters and/or carburators and jets. The symptom: engine runs fine at idle, sputters or stalls on throttle up. The way out for me was to constantly change gunked up fuel filters through two seasons of "corn-gas". Eventually, the tank walls get clean and the problem goes away. Had no stalls last year at all.

My mechanic has saved several "sample" bottles gunk from corn-gas fuel filters from many different boats. They all look the same. There is a bit more water than usual , but lots and lots of gunk.

Note: You don't see this problem in cars because there is a constant flow of fuel, thus less gunk buildup in the tanks. Most boats hold a lot of gas and sit for long periods between usage, allowing for the accumulation of gunk on the inside of tank walls.

jbg108 · 03-28-2006, 03:15 PM

Mass is going to have a 10% Ethanol mix, not 30%.

lobsta1 · 03-29-2006, 12:56 AM

Fishegg, I know it's coming, but have not seen ANY stations or marinas with ethanol YET. Where in Ma. are you located?
Al

Fishegg · 03-29-2006, 09:10 AM

I've seen it at the Haffners in the Methuen/Lawrence area

lobsta1 · 03-29-2006, 10:20 AM

One station is a lot different from ALL the stations. Obviously if we still have a choice, we should let the market know what our choice is. We'll eventually have to pay a higher price but if we show the demand is there, MAYBE we'll still have a choice of non-ethanol fuel.
Al

sblunden · 03-29-2006, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Fishegg - 3/29/2006 9:10 AM

I've seen it at the Haffners in the Methuen/Lawrence area

WOW. I forgot all about the Haffner's in Methuen! Haven't been there in years since my wife's mom passed away. It Kicks! Thanks for the memories.

b8mstr · 03-29-2006, 03:30 PM

I thought the ethanol mixture was supposed to be for winter months only? Are you saying that we're going to get it year around?

lobsta1 · 03-29-2006, 03:36 PM

Dave, that's what all the squawking on all the forums has been about. There are currently 42 ethanol plants either planned or under construction in the US. In the meantime there is a shortage & we have to import it at a cost of $2.70 per gal. Both the Feds & the states are giving all kinds of tax incentives to the biggies to convert over to ethanol. The fat cats make out like fat cats. Long term it is better for the environment. However in the short term we small guys take it in the wallet.
Al

jigger · 04-03-2006, 02:34 PM

I had written the CommonWealth of Mass. About ethanol fuel change over and this is the response I recieved from them.

I don’t know of any plan for the Commonwealth to switch over to ethanol gas (E85 - 85% ethanol). I have heard some companies, like Getty, use a 5 to 10% blend in their gas. I believe Connecticut and New York have started to use a 5 to10% blend of ethanol in their automotive gas. I am not sure if this applies to marine fuel as well. You may want to check with some fellow boaters from CT. or NY. Also you could talk with the marine engine dealers or manufactures, they should know of any problems. Hope this helps

capecodguy · 04-04-2006, 09:58 PM

I stopped by the local marina today. As of April 1st, they are required to but 10% ethhanol fuel. They are planning on lots of problems. They topped off their 16,000 gallons tanks last week to avoid the "corn" fuel. When they switch, they have been told to replace all 4 filters on their pumps daily! At a cost of $100 each.! They need to do this for at least 30 days. And their tanks are only 5 years old. I better order some new Racors...

jigger · 04-04-2006, 10:36 PM

Quote:

CAPTJohnny - 3/26/2006 10:36 AM

Yes you can also see the road stations advertising "WINTER MIX" to rig drivers here in NJ

Capt Johnny just to let you know WINTER MIX means they have added an additive to the deseil to keep it from jelling up. It has nothing to do with ethanol. If they added ethanol to deseil they would burn the engine out 1/2 mile down the road.

Birdman · 04-05-2006, 01:21 PM

This is really old news guys. If your just getting this info now, I suggest you drift over to the "SIMS" forum (Shipyard parts...) under the vendors area. He has lots of good info on it and what you should do to protect yourself. Specifically, you should install 10micron fuel filters in front of your motors.

The problem is not "resin or gunk" in your fuel tank. The problem is H2o (water). Ethenal turns water in the tank (even the little amount caused by dew on the sides of yoru tank when it's not full, and the humidity in the air...) into sludge which clogs your filters. So you want to clog your inline filters, NOT the motors internal filters whci hcan be costly to fix.

capecodguy · 04-05-2006, 09:33 PM

Birdman, I think you are incorrect. If ethanol and water formed a sludge, vodka would be a solid!

There are three problems happening with ethanol in boat gas.

1. Leaching of the plasticizers used in older fiberglass tanks. The ethanol dissolves some of the additives in older tanks. This leads first to a varnish-like build-up on the valves, carbs and other engine components as the fuel is vaporized and burned. The plasticizers are in solution and therefore aren't removed by the fuel filters. The additives have a much higher boiling point than the fuel due to a higher molecular weight. The second effect is that the tanks themselves weaken and need to be replaced.

2. Clogging of fuel filters due to "gunk" being removed by the ethanol. A mixture of 10% ethanol/fuel has a different polarity than straight fuel. Material build-up on the sides and bottoms of tanks are loosened by the ethanol whereas as they were insoluble in straight gas. Unlike above where the plasticizers are in solution and therefore aren't removed by the fuel filters, this gunk can get trapped by the fuel filter.

3. Water is soluble in ethanol but insoluble (to a large extent) in gas. Any water sits on the bottom of the tank of a gas. When you add ethanol, that water is suspensed in solution along with the fuel. Therefore, it gets sucked up with the gas. It also makes it much harder to keep the fuel dry from the suppliers to the marina to your boat.

As you can see, the older the boat, the more problems you can have. As Birdman says, if you don't have 10-micron water removing filters like the Racors, you better add them! I just ordered 4 spares for my boat. If the marina thinks they will need to change them everyday, I better have some extras on-board. I knew that Ph.D. in chemistry would come in useful some day...

Animo916 · 04-17-2006, 11:53 AM

Quote:

capecodguy - 4/5/2006 8:33 PM

Birdman, I think you are incorrect. If ethanol and water formed a sludge, vodka would be a solid!

There are three problems happening with ethanol in boat gas.

1. Leaching of the plasticizers used in older fiberglass tanks. The ethanol dissolves some of the additives in older tanks. This leads first to a varnish-like build-up on the valves, carbs and other engine components as the fuel is vaporized and burned. The plasticizers are in solution and therefore aren't removed by the fuel filters. The additives have a much higher boiling point than the fuel due to a higher molecular weight. The second effect is that the tanks themselves weaken and need to be replaced.

2. Clogging of fuel filters due to "gunk" being removed by the ethanol. A mixture of 10% ethanol/fuel has a different polarity than straight fuel. Material build-up on the sides and bottoms of tanks are loosened by the ethanol whereas as they were insoluble in straight gas. Unlike above where the plasticizers are in solution and therefore aren't removed by the fuel filters, this gunk can get trapped by the fuel filter.

3. Water is soluble in ethanol but insoluble (to a large extent) in gas. Any water sits on the bottom of the tank of a gas. When you add ethanol, that water is suspensed in solution along with the fuel. Therefore, it gets sucked up with the gas. It also makes it much harder to keep the fuel dry from the suppliers to the marina to your boat.

As you can see, the older the boat, the more problems you can have. As Birdman says, if you don't have 10-micron water removing filters like the Racors, you better add them! I just ordered 4 spares for my boat. If the marina thinks they will need to change them everyday, I better have some extras on-board. I knew that Ph.D. in chemistry would come in useful some day...

Finally, someone hits the nail on the head. Boats with fiberglass tanks built before the mid 80's (Bertram, Hatteras, Viking) may be at risk to ethanol eating away at the tanks. The resins work their way through the filters and seperate out when the engines cool down and the gas flashes(evaporates) off internal engine parts. The resins then stick to the engine parts and reharden. The most common problem being that the vales would stick, resulting in bent or broken pushrods. This past summer on Long Island, there were many complaints about problems in newer outboards, especially Yamahas ......here's a link to a thread started on 6/29/04, 27 pages long
http://www.noreast.com/discussion/Vi...D=26297&page=1

The other scenario with ethanol is that it is an efficient solvent. Therefore, it is cleaning years worth of slime, crud, and varnish that has accumulated in the tanks over that time. Until you are certain that the tanks have been cleaned out, a spare supply of filters and frequent checking would be a good practice.

Lastly, the addition of year round fuel stabilizers would also be a good practice to prevent the ethanol from absorbing water. Also, ethanol gas does not have the same shelf life as straight gasoline and loses it's octane rating if left untreated or unused for long periods of time.