Radar........ to buy or not to buy, that is the question, and some stuff about birds - The Hull Truth

Kmodi · 09-11-2006, 10:12 PM

I am interested in getting the raymarine 4kw domefor my center console, BUT the only reason I owuld get it is to hunt some packs of birds, so my question is........can you really spotbirds with a 4kw dome and how far away can you accurately see them? Thanks!!!!

troll · 09-11-2006, 10:16 PM

An open array is better for birds due to lower beamwidth and generally more available power. 4KW is entry level and will work in good conditions but the more power the better. I believe Furuno to be superior in the area of radar functionality.

BTW: Radar has many uses in addition to bird finding.

Southern Fried · 09-11-2006, 11:07 PM

Bird locating is just a bonus. Get stuck in some serious fog and you will wonder what you would did w/out.

Anyhow go ahead and get a Ray 4 k or bigger

Kmodi · 09-12-2006, 12:18 AM

I understand that a radar has many other great (primary) uses, but I fish out of a 23CC and generaly dont venture too far from home when visibilty is iffy. But i was just curious what everybody thinks or has had experience with when using a dome. Thanks!

sand box · 09-12-2006, 01:08 AM

I have a 4kw furuno open array on a 22' Glacier Bay. I can spot birds working if the sea is very calm and turn up the gain, but must confess I rarely use it for that purpose. For the most part I find it to be aggravating with only a 2' open array. So don't buy a 4kw radar to spot birds. But it is great to have when going out at night, a few glances at the screen and you are alerted to anyone within your radar range (for me usually 1.5 to 3 miles). Finding buoys is also easy there are not usually exactly where the chart plotter card says they are and on tight channels this can make a difference (especially for buoys that are not lit). I find it also useful when trolling in the daytime, I can see other crafts along my intended course at 1.5 miles and make any necessary changes to my intended route. As mentioned before it is invaluable in the fog and sometimes useful for driving around rain storms or finding the spot in the storm to drive through that is the weakest. Hope this helps.

SeaSwirler23 · 09-12-2006, 08:03 AM

if you want a radar for navigation, the radome is fine, if you want a radar to find birds you have to go to a 4 foot open arry at minimum to get a tight enough horizontal beamwidth to get the resolution good enough to see them.

marineexpert · 09-12-2006, 12:31 PM

ok here is some real info. No matter what brand you need at least a 12kw or a 25kw open array radar. The best brand on the market that does not get too much spotlight is the koden and sitex radars. The quality in their radars is phoenominal. The units are very user freindly. They have a gentlemen in their customer service department who can diagnose anything over the phone. His name is roger spencer.

ranger0131 · 09-12-2006, 03:18 PM

Quote:

marineexpert - 9/12/2006 11:31 AM

ok here is some real info. No matter what brand you need at least a 12kw or a 25kw open array radar. The best brand on the market that does not get too much spotlight is the koden and sitex radars. The quality in their radars is phoenominal. The units are very user freindly. They have a gentlemen in their customer service department who can diagnose anything over the phone. His name is roger spencer.

i find birds quite easy with a 6kw furuno.

Kmodi · 09-12-2006, 03:32 PM

is that an open array?

First Light · 09-12-2006, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Kmodi - 9/12/2006 2:32 PM is that an open array?

Any radar above 4kw is open array.

First Light · 09-12-2006, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Kmodi - 9/11/2006 11:18 PM I understand that a radar has many other great (primary) uses, but I fish out of a 23CC and generaly dont venture too far from home when visibilty is iffy. But i was just curious what everybody thinks or has had experience with when using a dome. Thanks!

Can you find birds with a 4kw radar with a dome antenna? Yes, if the birds are bunched up close enough together or are not too far away. However, the birds you can see with a 4kw radar/dome antenna can usually be seen with the naked eye. Your boat is not big enough to support an antenna large enough to reliabily and predictabily mark birds - even if you built up your t-top so if was strong enough to hold a 48" radar antenna, the appliance (ie. screen) would consume all of the space on your CC.

Kmodi · 09-12-2006, 04:37 PM

Thanks, that is kinda what I figured. I am going to proceed with getting a dome because it definately ups your safety, but figured I would ask ahead of time so i wasnt dissappointed when I couldnt track packs at a distance. Thanks for all of the input guys!

imanutskie · 09-12-2006, 06:47 PM

Quote:

First Light - 9/12/2006 2:48 PM

Quote:

Kmodi - 9/11/2006 11:18 PM I understand that a radar has many other great (primary) uses, but I fish out of a 23CC and generaly dont venture too far from home when visibilty is iffy. But i was just curious what everybody thinks or has had experience with when using a dome. Thanks!

Can you find birds with a 4kw radar with a dome antenna? Yes, if the birds are bunched up close enough together or are not too far away. However, the birds you can see with a 4kw radar/dome antenna can usually be seen with the naked eye. Your boat is not big enough to support an antenna large enough to reliabily and predictabily mark birds - even if you built up your t-top so if was strong enough to hold a 48" radar antenna, the appliance (ie. screen) would consume all of the space on your CC.

yep

delmar · 09-17-2006, 10:01 PM

i like the idea of radar but have never gotten a good answer to the question of function of 2 or 4 kw units in heavy rain or dense fog. which is what i think i need. the running at night thing is good but i'm more concerned about hitting a log.

chrisjb · 09-21-2006, 11:29 AM

No where near an expert on radar, but according to the manufactures, more power allows you to see deeper into the rain or fog bank. I haven't done a side by side comparison, but changed from a 2.2kw dome to a 3kw open array (really apples and oranges) and the higher powered open blew away the dome. I picked up the open used, so when it eventually goes, I will feel comfortable spending the money to get the biggest and most powerful radar/open array that will fit on the boat.

Jim Z · 09-22-2006, 12:18 AM

Quote:

marineexpert - 9/12/2006 11:31 AM ok here is some real info. No matter what brand you need at least a 12kw or a 25kw open array radar.

Sorry, but that would actually be some not-so-real info. I've got a 4kw open arrayand have foundbirds as far away as 5 miles. Yes, really! [img]../images/emoticons/thumbsup.gif[/img]

A narrow horizontal beam width is what you need topay attention to and the smaller the number the better the discrimination between targets. Mine is 1.8 degrees for example. Typically domes only go so narrow which is why an open array works better for birdhunting. In general, a wider array equals a narrower beam width. After a certain point power is nearly irrelevant since your radarcan't "see" birds below the horizon anyway. The further away the birds are the higher they need to be flying in order tointersect the radar beam due to the curvature of the earth. Conversely, the higher your antenna the further the horizon will be and the furtherit can see.

Contrary to what First Light wrote, the average person can't see birds more than 1/2 mile away with the naked eye. Although a4kw dome will do much better than the naked eye once properly adjusted, if your primary purpose is to find birds get an open array.

joe j · 09-22-2006, 12:21 AM

I put a Ray 2kw on this year and the few times I have needed it I was glad it was there. I have had no problem seeing other boats, buoys, land in pretty thick fog. The one thing that really surprised me was one day we were out in some thick fog and I was able to mark birds however when it is clear I have not been able to. However the birds were very close and had it not been foggy I would have been able to see them anyway.

troll · 09-22-2006, 09:10 AM

I think Jim Z summed it up pretty well. Also note that the settings for locating birds (and distant storms for that matter) are NOT what you would use for navigation. The Furuno website has a good article of using a radar to locate birds. In a nutshell - you crank the gain up pretty high and use color to pick a flock of birds out of the noise and clutter.

As for power, I now have a 4K array Navnet and probably would consider a 6K for my next boat. I don't see any benefit of going for more power unless the array is to be mounted much higher on a tower or above a flying bridge. For most boats under 35' I really believe 6K is the maximum usable power.
YMMV.

Extractor · 09-22-2006, 09:56 PM

Quote:

marineexpert - 9/12/2006 11:31 AM

ok here is some real info. No matter what brand you need at least a 12kw or a 25kw open array radar. The best brand on the market that does not get too much spotlight is the koden and sitex radars. The quality in their radars is phoenominal. The units are very user freindly. They have a gentlemen in their customer service department who can diagnose anything over the phone. His name is roger spencer.

The above quote is a great example of misinformation on the internet. I've owned a 4KW Raymarine open array, a 6 KW furuno open array and now a 12 KW Furuno open array. All these units WILL find birds beyond 3 miles......but the difference is ease of use, target discrimination and which system is easy on the eyes when trying to interpret the data.

In a 23 ft. boat, it is probably not a great idea to put a 60lb open array swinging around like a rotor on a chopper. Therefore, I would research which radome would work best for my needs.