New humminbird down imaging pics (available in 2010)

[pastaman1234]

Originally Posted by slief

Thanks a bunch! Please let me know what you find out.

I have an LSS-1 in hand that arrived the other day but mounting it might be a problem. I started a seperate thread here on that. You can see what I am up against.

I love the idea of this structure scan and down imaging. It seems like it could be really useful where I boat, assuming it will work in salt water in depths from 30' to 300'. I currently have an FCV585 with a 1Kw through hull transducer that works really well but I am not great at finding the smaller structure with it. This new technology would certainly help if I can make it work on boat.

Side imaging works well to about 150'. I am not really sure about the 300 though but this down imaging/scan is new so maybe it will work deeper. There are some saltwater pics of wrecks and stuff on that site in side mode. Ill post them up.

[pastaman1234]

Originally Posted by slief

Thanks a bunch! Please let me know what you find out.

I have an LSS-1 in hand that arrived the other day but mounting it might be a problem. I started a seperate thread here on that. You can see what I am up against.

I love the idea of this structure scan and down imaging. It seems like it could be really useful where I boat, assuming it will work in salt water in depths from 30' to 300'. I currently have an FCV585 with a 1Kw through hull transducer that works really well but I am not great at finding the smaller structure with it. This new technology would certainly help if I can make it work on boat.

I posted the question for you. Should have an answer shortly. The left and right ducer from humminbird come in both transom mount or thru hull. Transom mounts look like they would work on your boat. You should join this group. There are tons of detailed install pics that teach you proper clearance etc.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sideimaging/

[pastaman1234]

Here are some deeper saltwater side imaging pics. A few freshwater at the end.



THEY ARE CALLING THIS A WHALE BUT IT LOOKS MORE LIKE A SHARK TO ME.



ARMY TANK



CESSNA



CESSNA RECOVERED



HUMPBACK WHALE



HUMPBACK WHALE



BOTTOM FISHING REGULAR 2D MODE



AUTOMOBILE



BARGE WITH BAIT CLOUDS



PINHALL BARGE



ROCK PILE WITH BAIT CLOUD



BAIT CLOUD



I HAVE NO IDEA BUT IT IS ALMOST 500'

I

Car in canal (Ft. lauderdale)



Delta 88 automobile (freshwater)



Delta 88 drag marks from being recovered (freshwater)



Delta 88 recovered (freshwater)

[txtightline]

Pastaman,

Thanks for clearing up my post with 'Bird about overlapping cones. That is good to know.

[pastaman1234]

DP

[pastaman1234]

Originally Posted by txtightline

Pastaman,

Thanks for clearing up my post with 'Bird about overlapping cones. That is good to know.

No problem

[pastaman1234]

Slief,

Here is the question that i asked........

>
> I know someone with a hull configuration that will require (2) side imaging ducers. Obviously one on the right side of the hull and one on the left side of the hull. How will this effect the new Down Imaging? Will the down image come from the left ducer? Right ducer? or both simultaneously?

Please advise.......................Skeeterman!!!



Here is your answer...............


RE: [sideimaging] Re: Side imaging with 2 ducers (left and right) Down imaging???‏
From: sideimaging@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Kendrick, Eddie (ekendric@johnsonoutdoors.com) Sent:Mon 11/23/09 10:55 AMTo: sideimaging@yahoogroups.com

Under normal conditions using the Wide setting for Down Imaging you will be fine.
If you use the Narrow setting it could be affected based on how far the 2 transducers are from each other.
By the way, the Narrow and Wide settings are exclusive to Humminbird. No choice on Lowrance LSS-1.


Eddie Humminbird

[XV2PS]

Thanks Pasta, interesting. Yes, a humpback whale for sure.

Here is my find (and easy 50,000 tons or something near that). Not the finest pic cause of speed against current and prop noise:

[pastaman1234]

Originally Posted by XV2PS

Thanks Pasta, interesting. Yes, a humpback whale for sure.

Here is my find (and easy 50,000 tons or something near that). Not the finest pic cause of speed against current and prop noise:

Nice snapshot........How many feet is 7.2 fathoms??

[inletsurf]

Cool pictures. My personal opinion is that "down imaging" is just a new display feature, a way of cropping and rotating a x-sectional view of the side imaging. The whole side imaging technology is huge IMO, giving the user vast increases in capability and bandwidth to find new spots where conventional bottomfinders cannot, for a price that's about $12,000 less than the cheapest conventional sidescan setup. Expansion of side imaging technology and using specialized software to resolve motional errors due to current/wave action is where they should be focused. However, as a fisherman, I don't need to see a clear image...I just need to be alerted that something is there. I can fine tune it after traversing across it. Definitely technology I would like to own one day, provided the feds do not close fishing.

[Mildog]

Originally Posted by inletsurf

Cool pictures. My personal opinion is that "down imaging" is just a new display feature, a way of cropping and rotating a x-sectional view of the side imaging. The whole side imaging technology is huge IMO, giving the user vast increases in capability and bandwidth to find new spots where conventional bottomfinders cannot, for a price that's about $12,000 less than the cheapest conventional sidescan setup. Expansion of side imaging technology and using specialized software to resolve motional errors due to current/wave action is where they should be focused. However, as a fisherman, I don't need to see a clear image...I just need to be alerted that something is there. I can fine tune it after traversing across it. Definitely technology I would like to own one day, provided the feds do not close fishing.

When looking at the "down imaging" pics compared to the SI pics I have to agree with you. Looks like a software addon to rotate and compress the SI images so our human eyes perceive it as "vertical imaging".

[pastaman1234]

You guys very well may be right but i think that the Down imaging pictures are more detailed and crisper compared to the Side imaging pictures. Maybe its just my eyes looking at it differently....I dont know. Plus if see something on side imaging 60' away from the boat the SI will convert to Down imaging and now make you believe its right under the boat??.....would suck if it were true but i doubt it. SI allows you to hunt new structure, mark a spot and then cruise over it and the down imaging lets you analyze it much better compared to 2D. I have seen pictures of structure on down imaging that the most experienced fisherman would have mistaken for fish and not really would have known exactly what it was under the boat. I am sure how they do it will all come out sooner or later as the down imaging technology is brand new. My guess is that they use the same 200/50 or 200/83 crystals and the new 2010 updates will allow that signal to be displayed as a down imaging MRI type picture if you are in that mode on your head unit.

Lets take this picture below for example. On the side imaging i see a branch but on the down imaging i see the same branch but there is shadow in front of it. How come the shadow not on both SI and down imaging if its just an inverted SI pic? I cant see that being the same picture just turned right side up. Picture shining a flash light at a tree. The shadow will be away from the structure. Now shine a flash light at the tree from directly from above......the shadow will now be right next to the tree. Side and down imaging is nothing more than an underwater MRI. 455khz or 800khz.

[pastaman1234]

Another update of how it works. They dont use the 200/83 frequency. I was wrong. They do use the 455 and 800 but just the portions of that frequency that shine directly under the boat. It is not a Si picture turned upright. This guy Doug that posted this is on the Tournament trail and on the Humminbird Pro staff.
The below was cut and pasted from the HB side imaging forum.





Re: [sideimaging] Re: Side imaging with 2 ducers (left and right) Down imaging???

I will attempt to answer your question.

Traditional 2D Sonar uses the Frequency of 83 kHz for the 60° Cone and 200 kHz for the 20° Cone.

Side Imaging uses the very narrow 1" Razor Thin Beam (Much like an MRI) to shoot sideways. With the HDsi Transducer it offers two frequencies. the 455kHz or 800kHz.

Down Imaging Uses the Side Imaging Crystals of the transducer to display the same razor thin beam but directly under the boat. (My Assumption) the 455khz will be used to create the DownImaging data but only from directly under the boat. Here is the information direct from the 2010 Brochure: "The picture-like images of Down Imaging are created with high frequency sound waves emitted in razor thin slices. THe sonar returns from these waves create an instant "snapshot" directly below the boat. Our exclusive software analyzes the returns to verify the position of the echoes to ensure Down Imaging only shows you structure and activity directly beneath you, not off to one side or another"

I will be updating my personal website with the 2010 Catalog as soon as I receive the PDF version I am getting. And you can review the data. Hopefully I get sometime next week.

Doug

[slief]

Originally Posted by pastaman1234

Nice snapshot........How many feet is 7.2 fathoms??

43.2'... 1 fathom = 6'.. Sounds deep though!!

Great info pastaman! I wish I knew when this was coming out beyond the vague 2010! The dual ducers certainly would work better on my boat but the fact that HB is not really well received in deeper salt water is a stumbling point for me.. Would love to know how it will perform in the 50-300' range in the ocean..

[pastaman1234]

Yea they def cater to fresh water and the shallows in the salt. They are not well received because they dont offer radar.

None of the lowrance or HB screen shots are in deep water. Technology might not be there yet and as far as down imaging or scanning none of the promos show it in deep water.

[XV2PS]

Yes 6 feet per fathom.

[inletsurf]

Originally Posted by pastaman1234

Lets take this picture below for example. On the side imaging i see a branch but on the down imaging i see the same branch but there is shadow in front of it. How come the shadow not on both SI and down imaging if its just an inverted SI pic? I cant see that being the same picture just turned right side up. Picture shining a flash light at a tree. The shadow will be away from the structure. Now shine a flash light at the tree from directly from above......the shadow will now be right next to the tree. Side and down imaging is nothing more than an underwater MRI. 455khz or 800khz.

Your pixel resolution in side-display mode may not support such fine detail on a shadow, which is nothing more than a software-generated light rendering product. However your down display mode can support such finer resolution. When I look at the photo you posted, I can see the faint traces of the thickest sections of the shadow you are referring to. Data is data and its all collected one time. You can process it a thousand ways but you're not going to change the captured data.

[slief]

I think these shadows are caused by a lack of return from behind the structure or latency of the return due to the structure being in the way. The shadows likely appear as a deeper spot to the sonar as a result of the return latency.

[inletsurf]

Originally Posted by pastaman1234

Yea they def cater to fresh water and the shallows in the salt. They are not well received because they dont offer radar.

None of the lowrance or HB screen shots are in deep water. Technology might not be there yet and as far as down imaging or scanning none of the promos show it in deep water.

The problem with these units and deep water is motional stability due to sea surface conditions. Real sidescans are towfishes and not transom-fixed transducers for this very reason: they are less susceptible to motionally induced errors in image processing due to being submerged under general wave action, and they also have increased range and power by running at deeper depths, removing loss from the majority of the water column.

Until someone is smart enough to focus on software processing to decouple motional errors from the image product, fluff like the "down imaging" will be the best you can expect as far as improvements go.

The challenge for these companies to technically compete with the real sidescan providers will be: 1) implementing motional error correction and image stabilization processing, and 2) increasing range and resolution for deep water performance. As far as cost competition, they've already won IMO. The bang for the buck of what either Lowrance or Humminbird offers is really impressive.

[inletsurf]

Originally Posted by slief

I think these shadows are caused by a lack of return from behind the structure or latency of the return due to the structure being in the way. The shadows likely appear as a deeper spot to the sonar as a result of the return latency.

You are correct here. I'm confusing multibeam processing with this. It is not the same.