Structure Scan - coming soon - Page 4 - The Hull Truth

khalito · 10-22-2009, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcm

JayDee I can't really answer you questions but I do wonder why Humminbird waited so long to offer DownScan. Why not years ago when they first offered SI. Could it have taken that long to develop the software? I don't think so. SI doesn't really interest me, it's the DownScan that's making all the news, and if Humminbird had offered it in the past I may have even purchased a Humminbird.

I just ordered the LSS-1 form BOE Marine Electronics. Last day of a sale ($522).

Thanks for all the information and screenshots you have provided .

Humminbird doesn't really have downscan but rather down-image. While lowrance infact have downscan functionality

JayDee · 10-22-2009, 08:25 PM

You're more than welcome tcm, glad I could help.
Yes Khalito. 1. the LSS-1 module 2.transducer 3.Ethernet cable. 4. A separate connection to power the LSS-1 module. As far as switching the LSS one module you have 2 options. 1. buy an off/on switch. 2. It can be switched through the HDS head unit.

Fishton · 10-22-2009, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayDee

How can HB use the same side scan transducer which I think was also used in legacy units and get true down scan?

JayDee,

Answering this is a little bit like stepping off the bank into murky water, especially when you’re not quite sure how deep it is. So here goes …

Transducers:-
Transducers are like your car’s speakers. Take the single cone 6” speaker, it can handle a vast array of frequencies from high to low. These speakers’s low frequency bass is not that good, and neither is the high frequency ‘pingy’ pith. But the mid range is excellent. That’s why they brought out 2 and 3 way speakers, with bass, mid range and ‘tweeter’. These are frequency specific speakers.

I see the 50 kHz transducer as the big ol’ bass speaker, thumping those low frequencies deep into the water. The 200 kHz transducer is like your average ‘do-all’ mid range speaker, and the high 455/800 kHz transducer like the crystal clear little ping you get from your tweeters. Not much range (distance), but certainly adds that crystal clear finishing touch.

Frequencies:-
Now frequencies are an amazing thing, ever been to a laser show, or a concert that had a mind numbing laser display? You can just about do anything with frequency manipulation, just think of your head unit as an oscilloscope. Here are the ‘cone’ shapes created by the various transducer frequencies:-

The 50, 83 and 200 kHz are generally cylindrical, and it is because of this wide ‘cylinder’ that objects appear as arches. The object first appears in the outer perimeter as a weak signal and gets stronger and stronger as it reaches the centre, then fades out again as we pass it and it goes into the outer perimeter again. See my video clip …….. http://www.facebook.com/pages/manage...v=139450786201

The 455 and 800 kHz are more oval and the reason objects appear so much clearer on our display units is because the ‘cone’ is taking a thinner slice in each ping thus preventing ‘arching’. It is this ‘arching’ that creates clutter when driving over a brush pile for example.

So how did Lowrance come up with DownScan? Did they purposely create a 3 way transducer for 455/800 only, or did they accidentally put a high, elongated frequency into a ‘combo’ type transducer like the Humminbird’s Hi-Def SI?

I believe the latter to be true. And you know what? I don’t care. Anglers around the world are going to benefit from this amazing technology, accidental or not. I have used the DownScan by Lowrance, and it is AWESOME! Not so good for my sonar courses though, because it takes all the ‘interpretation’ out of the picture. And a large portion of my course is on interpretation.

So to answer your question JayDee:-

I think Humminbird is just going to manipulate the frequencies going to the ‘mid-range’ in the same manner that I suspect Lowrance did it.

There sure are a bunch of ‘ifs and buts’ in this post. I apologize in advance if I’m off course here.

Rolngthun · 10-23-2009, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by khalito

Humminbird doesn't really have downscan but rather down-image. While lowrance infact have downscan functionality

Really? In time I suspect you will figure out they are both the same.
Right now,waiting to be corrected, I believe structure scan is more accurate of a term than down scan. They keep talking down scan, what is below the boat, and all that. Yet the pictures we see are side images. See the side of the trees, and bus. It appears to me, if it was really a downscan, you would be seeing the top of the trees, bus.
At first a few of us Humminbird fans thought they were just turning the side imaging on the screen and maybe combining both sides. But several have taken the pictures of the side images and overlaid onto the downscan images. They do not align in a way to say this is the case.
I have been using side imaging for several years. I have been very happy with Humminbird. But I don't knock Lowrance. Happy to have them around to keep Humminbird on their toes. Side imaging has been a lot of fun. So my opinion is which ever manufacture you decide to choose, have fun with it.

LMychajluk · 10-23-2009, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolngthun

... Yet the pictures we see are side images...

Really? I'm seeing both.

Sidescan (showing Left/Right of the boat)

Downscan (Showing a 3D view)

Side-by-Side Sidescan & Downscan

(Pics from http://www.lowrance.us/Products/Mari...of-Performance)

JayDee · 10-23-2009, 07:27 AM

Fishton,
I agree with most everything you stated. However, I personally know Lowrance's Structure Scan has been undergoing R & D for quite some time. How long? Only they know. Was it an accident? I think not.

Structure Scan emits a sound wave approximately 1.3 degrees wide, not an oval. It does this left, right and downward. The transducer and array of crystals/elements were designed for this specific purpose. Imagine a knife edge running across the stern of your boat from starboard to port scanning the lake bottom.

Rolngthun · 10-23-2009, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LMychajluk

Really? I'm seeing both.

What I am attempting to say. The pictures look like they are taken from the side. It shows a side view of the objects. Not a downlooking view. It is showing the side of the bus like there was a camera off to the side taking the picture. Not like there was a camera looking down, top of the bus. I realize it is not a camera, just using the camera to try to explain. I am referring to how it looks on the screen. Not which beam it is using.
The part that is hard for my little imagination is. How do you send a beam straight down and back, and get a side view on the screen. I am thinking at some point someone is going to tell me it is not below the boat. But rather behind the boat.

JayDee · 10-23-2009, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolngthun

What I am attempting to say. The pictures look like they are taken from the side. It shows a side view of the objects. Not a downlooking view. It is showing the side of the bus like there was a camera off to the side taking the picture. Not like there was a camera looking down, top of the bus. I realize it is not a camera, just using the camera to try to explain. I am referring to how it looks on the screen. Not which beam it is using.
The part that is hard for my little imagination is. How do you send a beam straight down and back, and get a side view on the screen. I am thinking at some point someone is going to tell me it is not below the boat. But rather behind the boat.

When I took the shot below I had made several passes over the bridge and found that the best, most detailed view was obtained while slightly paralleling the bridge rather than directly over top of it. If you shine a flashlight directly at an object from an angle, granted the most intense light will be in the center but it also illuminates some of the other areas of the object too. Make sense?

Rolngthun · 10-23-2009, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayDee

When I took the shot below I had made several passes over the bridge and found that the best, most detailed view was obtained while slightly paralleling the bridge rather than directly over top of it. If you shine a flashlight directly at an object from an angle, granted the most intense light will be in the center but it also illuminates some of the other areas of the object too. Make sense?

The slightly paralleling certainly makes sense to me. At least makes more sense to be at least slightly behind, in front of, or to the side of the transducer. Rather than straight down.
And that is one of my favorite pictures. Even if it was in a fish aquarium like the Birdman claims.
I feel as more and more of these units get out there. Humminbird and Lowrance. There is going to be a lot of new discoveries.

JayDee · 10-23-2009, 12:10 PM

[quote=Rolngthun;2579832]
And that is one of my favorite pictures. Even if it was in a fish aquarium like the Birdman claims.[quote]

If I was a sensitive kind of guy I suppose I could "get my wudda fewings hurt" by that statement. Ha!

The 20,600-acre aquarium is actually located in SW Virginia about 20 miles from my home. The bridge in question became submerged when the lake filled. Here's a historic picture of the two bridges during the construction phase. Notice the arches in the substructure of the old bridge (right and center) which is now submerged. "Oh ye of little faith".

http://images.search.yahoo.com/image...sigb=131vlf0gp

Rolngthun · 10-23-2009, 12:17 PM

You misunderstood. It is not I with little faith. I have been using side imaging. I believe the pictures of Lowrance and Humminbird to be real. I was referring to a remark in another thread. Birdman feels the pictures and technology to be fake. But this is because it is not offered by Garmin.
And thanks to the link to the actual bridge before being submerged.

Reel Draggin' Tackle · 10-23-2009, 04:35 PM

One of the best things Lowrance did was put the image snap-shot capability in the unit. I know others have it, but I am sure you will see more and more units add this capability. By the time I get Structure Scan on the boat I think I am going to be an expert! Now, if we can get more folks using and talking about the recordings they are taking and replaying....

JayDee · 10-23-2009, 06:38 PM

Read the first story under "Underwater Anomalies"
I rest my case.

http://www.smithmountainlake.com/lif...ekly/wb/210472

http://www.wset.com/news/stories/1009/671543.html

Rolngthun · 10-24-2009, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reel Draggin' Tackle

One of the best things Lowrance did was put the image snap-shot capability in the unit. I know others have it, but I am sure you will see more and more units add this capability. By the time I get Structure Scan on the boat I think I am going to be an expert! Now, if we can get more folks using and talking about the recordings they are taking and replaying....

I agree. The snap shots are a lot of fun. When ever you set a mark it takes a snap shot. Then later when your wondering about a mark you can look at the snap shot. I save them on my computer, fish porn.
I have not got into the recording yet. But I will.

Fishton · 10-24-2009, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayDee

Fishton,
I agree with most everything you stated. However, I personally know Lowrance's Structure Scan has been undergoing R & D for quite some time. How long? Only they know. Was it an accident? I think not.

Structure Scan emits a sound wave approximately 1.3 degrees wide, not an oval. It does this left, right and downward. The transducer and array of crystals/elements were designed for this specific purpose. Imagine a knife edge running across the stern of your boat from starboard to port scanning the lake bottom.

I think you will be surprised.

That 1.3° sound wave ultimately creates an oval pattern when looking from above for demonstration purposes. The image showing the sound wave shapes in my previous post is by Navico.

DavidKup · 10-24-2009, 05:09 PM

Is Garmin planning to roll out a similar unit?

pastaman1234 · 10-24-2009, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcm

only if the "Birdman" sees a need for it.

Check out this. JD on the TV news.

http://www.wset.com/news/stories/100...?ref=newsstory

The bridge shows up pretty well on the 2D sonar also.
wonder why none of the Humminbird users ever found this bridge?

Great flick tcm

pastaman1234 · 10-24-2009, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slief

Does anybody know what options might be available for us Cat owners regarding mounting the transducer? The structure scan ducer is around 7" long plus the kick up bracket for transom mounting. I am considering structure scan to compliment my Furuno 585 1Kw thur hull set up. I was thinking about getting one on back order but I dont know if mounting it will be possible for my setup. Worst case, I might be able to make a retractable bracket that mounts on my swim ladder mount but that is certainly not ideal.

I dont know if anyone has answered you yet as i did not read every single post on this thread in detail.

Humminbird has an option for boats like yours as well as other hull designs that interfere with the side scan. They offer a seperate right and left ducer that can be used together to see both sides at the same time or each side independently. If Lowrance does not have this option yet i am sure it wont be long until they do as Lowrance is definately more popular with the saltwater guys that have much different hull designs like yours.

bassturd · 10-26-2009, 03:53 PM

Nice TV news spot

Question how good is the unit at finding rock piles ?
Can it show transitions from gravel to sand?

JayDee · 10-26-2009, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassturd

Nice TV news spot

Question how good is the unit at finding rock piles ?
Can it show transitions from gravel to sand?

Rock piles are a piece of cake. Sand or gravel? A lot of it would depend on depth of the area you're fishing. For the species I go after, I'm generally searching 20 + feet. There aren't a lot of rock piles where I fish, mostly rock outcroppings, ledges, etc. I took these in different reservoirs.