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Random Quote: GET THE TREBLE OUT LATE.......R, (Mates first green wahoo)
If you look at how Garmin has entered other industries such as aviation, they may start out behind the ball but my guess is in another 3-5 years they will have the best plotter, fishfinder, and radar technology. That is what has happened with everything they have gotten into so far.
For me the Garmin UI sucks because I have to remember where they have hidden some of the seldom used options, with a Raymarine unit I'm able to reason where to find the setting.
LOL!! THAT, is hilarious, really.
Yes, Garmin hides their menu options and RM makes them logical!! LOL!! That could not be farther than the truth right now than just about anything I've read on THT in a few years.
You can like the RM UI better, you can prefer on over the other. But you can NOT say RM's is more logical, sorry. Not even close.
What the HECK are ya talkin about??? Ray's "High-end units"??? Your kidding right? If Garmin is better in any area between the two, it's these two:
1. Ease of use (ergonomics) of the software. Not even a competition right now.
2. Dispalys. Garmins offers larger displays. But BOTH are sunlight viewable, and both are bright. Neither is any better than the other as they both come out of the same LCD TFT plants in china and Korea, along with every other LCD display on the planet.
But, it is a REAL bummer if Ray goes under or is bought out and disintegrates (as I suspect would occur if Garmin were to buy them). competition is good. The lack of it would suck for us.
Maybe I should turn this around - what the HECK are YOU talking about ?
1) Ease of use is purely subjective to the user. It may also be prejudiced upon prior experience of the user. nonetheless, I've advocated (multiple times in this thread), that the deciding factor should be in the user and how they feel about the interface that THEY are going to use. It appears this opinion is shared by several others. So this is SUBJECTIVE - I'm not advocating which one is better or worse, just what one prefers.
2) Last I checked, Garmins LARGEST screen is a 15" unit. Raymarine has 15, 17, and 19" displays (and can handle larger displays from other manufacturers) in their high-end line. So, is it me who doesn't know what I'm talking about or you who is lacking the clue?
Sounds like you need to fill some knowledge in there. . ..
I will agree wholeheartedly with your last statement that competiion is good.
My beef with Raymarine goes back a ways. Looks like they reap what they sew. All I read about and all I hear are RM complaints. Fished last weekend on a boat with all RM. Fun, boat had 2 large screens and the FF would lock up about every 5-7 minutes. The owner had to turn both units off and go in the console and remove power from each unit, then supply power and turn the units back on. They would work for 5-7 minutes and lock up again. He says he has had this problem ongoing after numerous failed repairs from RM.
Mentioned this problem to a friend who is familiar with RM on boats he fishes on and he says, yeah, common issue and he recommended installing a battery switch close to the units to make the power off procedure easier after they lock up. Ridiculous.
I love how RM always uses the boating public as their guinea pigs when they introduce new products.
This is a fairly common problem on many of their DSM sounder modules. They basically lose bottom if the voltage fluctuates too much. From their installation guides, its highly recommended that they either have a breaker or switch installed to reset the unit as they don't come with power switches.
This is also easily remedied if its powered on a bank that fluctuates from engine starts, trolling motors, etc. Just use a newmar navpack/powerpak, or one of the power pack units that is advertised on this site. This protects the unit from the surge drops that happens with DC units as they power up.
Not the best solution, but sensitive electronics these days. These aren't affected when used in 24v boats, just the low voltage that happens on 12v systems.
Best GPS hands down is Nobeltec run through a PC. Not for every boat but for those of us with a nice dry spot and no wave banging the Garmin Ray Furuno marathon debate is laughable.
Maybe I should turn this around - what the HECK are YOU talking about ?
1) Ease of use is purely subjective to the user. It may also be prejudiced upon prior experience of the user. nonetheless, I've advocated (multiple times in this thread), that the deciding factor should be in the user and how they feel about the interface that THEY are going to use. It appears this opinion is shared by several others. So this is SUBJECTIVE - I'm not advocating which one is better or worse, just what one prefers.
2) Last I checked, Garmins LARGEST screen is a 15" unit. Raymarine has 15, 17, and 19" displays (and can handle larger displays from other manufacturers) in their high-end line. So, is it me who doesn't know what I'm talking about or you who is lacking the clue?
Sounds like you need to fill some knowledge in there. . ..
I will agree wholeheartedly with your last statement that competiion is good.
Asside from a MEGA-Yacht or commercial boat, how many recreational boaters are using anything over a 15"?
Garmin isn't stupid, they are being specific to the market they want to target and make a lot of money doing it. I think they would rather sell tens of thouasands of 4" to 15" displays and focus thier energy on that market than sell about 500 19" displays to a very select market that.
I think Garmin has cornered the handheld market and the 4" to 15" displays. While Raymarine and Furuno also supply to this market, they don't have the same market share anymore.
__________________ Justin
2000 Luhrs 320 Open - CAT Power United States Power Squadron - Vessel Safety Examiner
Asside from a MEGA-Yacht or commercial boat, how many recreational boaters are using anything over a 15"?
Garmin isn't stupid, they are being specific to the market they want to target and make a lot of money doing it. I think they would rather sell tens of thouasands of 4" to 15" displays and focus thier energy on that market than sell about 500 19" displays to a very select market that.
I think Garmin has cornered the handheld market and the 4" to 15" displays. While Raymarine and Furuno also supply to this market, they don't have the same market share anymore.
50' setup with double 17" displays below, 2x15" displays flybridge.
I know a 45' right next to me that has 3x17" displays on the helm/bridge.
19" might be pushing it, but its all relative. Depends on the size of the bridge and how its laid out. I think if I had a 60'-65', I could easily see 3 or 4 19" glass bridge and I'd hardly be in mega-yacht territory.
My beef with Raymarine goes back a ways. Looks like they reap what they sew. All I read about and all I hear are RM complaints.
True! There are LOADS of complaints about ALL of the major OEMs on this and other boards as well. Not too many people (with exceptions) come here to stroke product. Its the nature of the beast.
Half of what is written in this thread is garbage...the other half is solid info. Thats also the nature of the beast. There are plenty of well meaning participants here that, honestly, haven't a clue.
Raymarine has a bunch of OEM manufacturers as well as contract manufacturers. They also share some manufacturing with some of their competitors products as well. For instance on other products on the OEM front, their Sat-TV units I believe are Intellian, their marine display units are KEP, their transducers are Airmar(as are just about everybody else), And I'm fairly certain that they use Flextronics for a lot of electronic OEM manufacturing which everyone else does as well (including their competitors). Flextronics manufactures in eastern europe as well as Asia and procures products from component manufacturers.
They did have a manufacturing plant in Portsmouth for many years (from Raytheon days as well), but I believe they went pure contract/OEM in 2005 or 2006 onward.
1) Ease of use is purely subjective to the user. It may also be prejudiced upon prior experience of the user. nonetheless, I've advocated (multiple times in this thread), that the deciding factor should be in the user and how they feel about the interface that THEY are going to use. It appears this opinion is shared by several others. So this is SUBJECTIVE - I'm not advocating which one is better or worse, just what one prefers.
That is DEAD wrong. Take it from a software engineer with 30 years experience of developing, testing and managing user interfaces of all sorts of software from high tech engineering applications to simple business processes. Software ergonomics is NOT subjective. What you are referring to really is, previous interface knowledge or what I call a "comfort zone". For example: I am a PC guy, NO MAC experience. Which interface do I like better? PC. I understand it, know it, familiar with it.. so it is easier for me to use "right now". BUT, if you ask me which interface is better, and more user friendly, I would tell you the Mac. So how could the Mac UI be better, yet I still prefer the PC?? Because of my "comfort zone". If I were to spend a month using nothing but a Mac, I bet ya I would switch, and never look back.
And that is EXACTLY the difference between the Garmin and RM/furuno interfaces. You might "THINK" you like the other UI better, but in reality, if you really spent the time to evaluate which is easier to use and ignore your confort zone, you would say the Garmin.
I was a RM guy. When shopping around last year, I first looked at the C and E series units. I played at depth with the software, and could easily perform most tasks without a big problem. Sure, I had to hunt and peck a bit to find things, but I knew RM's interface fairly well. I then looked at the Garmin units, and without any knowledge whatsoever, was able to do the same things in less time, more intuitively. No need for any prior knowelege, manual, docs, help... It's just intuitive. With my background, it takes me a matter of minutes to see if a UI is good/easy to use or not. I can easily block out the "comfort zone" stuff for evaluation purposes.
So the end all is, the ergonomics of software is really NOT subjective. Your preference in which you like better can be subjective, becuase of prior knowledge or the "comfort zone", but the actual real ergonomics rating can differ greatly from what you "think" your preference is. If you took 100 new users (never used any of them), I'd bet ya all of your money 90 out of the 100 would pick the Garmin interface.
That is DEAD wrong. Take it from a software engineer with 30 years experience of developing, testing and managing user interfaces of all sorts of software from high tech engineering applications to simple business processes. Software ergonomics is NOT subjective. What you are referring to really is, previous interface knowledge or what I call a "comfort zone". For example: I am a PC guy, NO MAC experience. Which interface do I like better? PC. I understand it, know it, familiar with it.. so it is easier for me to use "right now". BUT, if you ask me which interface is better, and more user friendly, I would tell you the Mac. So how could the Mac UI be better, yet I still prefer the PC?? Because of my "comfort zone". If I were to spend a month using nothing but a Mac, I bet ya I would switch, and never look back.
And that is EXACTLY the difference between the Garmin and RM/furuno interfaces. You might "THINK" you like the other UI better, but in reality, if you really spent the time to evaluate which is easier to use and ignore your confort zone, you would say the Garmin.
I was a RM guy. When shopping around last year, I first looked at the C and E series units. I played at depth with the software, and could easily perform most tasks without a big problem. Sure, I had to hunt and peck a bit to find things, but I knew RM's interface fairly well. I then looked at the Garmin units, and without any knowledge whatsoever, was able to do the same things in less time, more intuitively. No need for any prior knowelege, manual, docs, help... It's just intuitive. With my background, it takes me a matter of minutes to see if a UI is good/easy to use or not. I can easily block out the "comfort zone" stuff for evaluation purposes.
So the end all is, the ergonomics of software is really NOT subjective. Your preference in which you like better can be subjective, becuase of prior knowledge or the "comfort zone", but the actual real ergonomics rating can differ greatly from what you "think" your preference is. If you took 100 new users (never used any of them), I'd bet ya all of your money 90 out of the 100 would pick the Garmin interface.
Anyhobble!!
Birdman, you are absolutely on the wrong track. I'm not going to get into your 30 years of background as I've been in the information technology field for the last 15 years as well. And in all honestly, 30 years doesn't mean jack. Only the most recent 10 is relevant as the first 20 is completely outdated.
You are trying to make your argument on a MACRO level. Macro/Societal ergonomics don't matter in a personal preference/purchase. They DO MATTER to Garmin (or anybody other company) on how they position their products. However to an INDIVIDUAL who is buying a product, the user interface and how they like it is SUBJECTIVE to that user. It doesn't matter that 99.99999% of people like it a particular way. If a user has used all the systems and believes that reading NOAA paper charts upside down is easier than anything else without any other clutter, then that user interface is the easiest to use for him/her. It is SUBJECTIVE to that user. That user determines what will work for him or her. PERIOD. You or me cannot determine what interface is more appropriate or better for another person after they've tried it and determine what works best for their intended use.
Just like you can't say the Mac OSX is better than another Windows, Linux/Unix variants. If it truly was the best, then everybody would use it and there wouldn't be any other interfaces. However, it's an absolute nightmare for certain things so, no - its not the best. It's subjective to whomever is using it and for what task. If its the best, hey, why don't we put the Mac OSX interface on all the IBM z9/z10 enterprise servers as well. let's put it everywhere. . . BTW, I've used Apple from Apple I/II/IIe(and Mac's still) and I've used PC's since the CPM and MS-DOS days. And while the Mac OS interface is good - its good for a certain group of users who like it. It's not the best choice for hardcore developers, financial analysts, and a whole slew of other industries.
And while you can say ergonomics on a macro level is not subjective as its measured on a group and can be quantified from a group - from a user point of view, ease of use is subjective to him/her. I fail to see how you can even assert that I'm even close to being remotely wrong there.
Software ergonomics is NOT subjective - from a macro level, yes
Software ease of use to a particular user - 100% subjective.
You really need to get off your Garmin high horse. Garmin makes a good product - no doubt. As do several other manufacturers. However, my take has always been that people need to go out and try a few units and see what THEY LIKE. And make their decision based on what they like. You seem hell bent on determining what someone else should like. Get over it as what you like and what someone else like is and can be 100% different.
You all are splitting hairs over which marine company has the better technology, when ALL of them are using technology that are light-years ahead of what we had 10 years ago. Is it an obsession, similar to the teenager with the iphone? Who really gives a s**t? Are your feelings hurt that you spent $15,000 on a system and someone else doesn't like that particular system?
Some of the legendary charter captains that I know who kill it every time they hit salt water, at the best, have a GPS plotter and an old Furuno VGA bottomfinder. No, these aren't the rich lawyers or general contractors by weekday who have the big go-fast center consoles with triple motors and some lame ass name wrapped on the boat, with matching truck, columbia team shirts, and obsession with tournaments. These are the old guys who have been fishing their spots for 40 or more years. You know, the guys who are out there fishing right now as some of you squabble over trivial **** online. Some still use loran or a GPS with nothing but lat/lon and the course display. I know one who has switched from a paper chart bottom finder to a small color one only 5 years ago. Would it upset some of you if you knew that these old guys can use these rusty old tools more efficiently than some of you with your $15,000 systems?
Its just ridiculous that every thread lately has degenerated into the Garmin/Raymarine/Furuno debate. Just enjoy what you have and go fish or cruise.
What the HECK are ya talkin about??? Ray's "High-end units"??? Your kidding right? If Garmin is better in any area between the two, it's these two:
2. Dispalys. Garmins offers larger displays. But BOTH are sunlight viewable, and both are bright. Neither is any better than the other as they both come out of the same LCD TFT plants in china and Korea, along with every other LCD display on the planet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthem-00
Maybe I should turn this around - what the HECK are YOU talking about ?
2) Last I checked, Garmins LARGEST screen is a 15" unit. Raymarine has 15, 17, and 19" displays (and can handle larger displays from other manufacturers) in their high-end line. So, is it me who doesn't know what I'm talking about or you who is lacking the clue?
Sounds like you need to fill some knowledge in there. . ..
Birdman, since you're determined to try and call out people who you believe are "DEAD WRONG" and don't seem to know what they are talking about, I'm going to bring this back info the forefront. You are 100% WRONG here. Black and white WRONG.
Garmin offers larger displays - 100% WRONG
both come out of the same LCD TFT plants in china and Korea, along with every other LCD display on the planet - 100% WRONG as well.
See who's WRONG here ? I've love people who seem to know what their talking about but are talking from an area where they are 100% WRONG.
I know who makes the big Raymarine displays. They aren't the same manufacturer as the Garmin units. While several of these guys all use Flextronics for manufacturing and some units might be made in similar factories, not ALL of them are made by the same manufacturers in the same plants.
And if you think all marine displays are the same because they come out of the same plant - you're absolutely crazy. I think the Raymarine display's are good - but their are ones that are way better than that. The nauticomps, Hatteland and Ambient Nav displays will absolutely crush the Raymarine and Furuno(and by extension Garmin and Simrad) displays in terms of their ability to go sunlight to barely perceptible dimming. Go and get yourself some screen time with big glass bridges and see the displays before coming back and saying they are all the same.
They did have a manufacturing plant in Portsmouth for many years (from Raytheon days as well), but I believe they went pure contract/OEM in 2005 or 2006 onward.
