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Update. I ended up installing the KVH M1 system last week. Awesome! Really easy to install and works great.
I'll say this, whichever unit or brand you buy, go ahead and buy it!! I was back and fourth on this subject (where or not to install Sat TV on the boat) for over a year now. Finally bit the bullet. VERY happy I did. Once you fire it up the first time, and see the NFL channel (with the Steelers on of course!) on the monitor in the cabin, you realise it's a nobrainer for $2,100.
What I still don't understand is the difference in dish sizes.
My M3 is the predecessor of the M1, and costs over 50% more. Slightly larger antenna, but what does that mean?
They still sell the M3, so why would anyone buy the M3 now instead of the smaller- and far cheaper- M1?
What I still don't understand is the difference in dish sizes.
My M3 is the predecessor of the M1, and costs over 50% more. Slightly larger antenna, but what does that mean?
They still sell the M3, so why would anyone buy the M3 now instead of the smaller- and far cheaper- M1?
I believe the newer smaller antennas have lower noise preamps. Since the amount fo signal power received by the antenna is proportional to the effective antenna area, the newer smaller antenna receive less power but because of the lower noise preamps they maintain a similar signal to noise ratio. The minimum signal to noise ratio (SNR) ultimately determines the sensitivity because the demodulation process requires a minimum SNR to demodulate the data (bits) with an acceptable bit error rate (BER). The bit error rate must be less than a certain threshold for the forward error correction (FEC) to correct the bit errors. When the SNR gets too low the picture begins to pixelate (reduced resolution) and eventually freezes due to excessive bit errors.
Anyway sorry for all the technical jargon, basically the newer dishs are smaller because of lower noise preamps and perhaps lower noise receiver blocks (mixers, local oscillators, A/D, etc.).
What I still don't understand is the difference in dish sizes.
My M3 is the predecessor of the M1, and costs over 50% more. Slightly larger antenna, but what does that mean?
They still sell the M3, so why would anyone buy the M3 now instead of the smaller- and far cheaper- M1?
Actually, the "dish size" has very little to do with it. They could probably put the M1's "dish" on the M3's hardware (see below) and it would work fine.
The difference is the Gyro and electronics attached to it. The M3 has a faster and better gyro, which will hold the satellite signal better while the boat is moving. The M1 will only hold the signal with very small movement as in at the dock. The M3 will hold it while offshore fishing.
So for me, I just wanted to be able to pop it on when docked or at anchor, and watch some tube on a rainy day, get some news / weather... My M1 works when I'm idling in a straight line, but if I start wiggling around, or am in any seas, it looses the signal. The M3 would probably hold the signal in those situations.
This is where the Intellian out performs the KVH... As you state the KVH will work only at dock or small movements....The Intellian i1 (smallest) will perform in offshore conditions... the antenna will move at 60 degrees a second...very fast...
as for dish size ...the bigger the dish the higher gain you will have offshore
look at the coverage maps for whichever service you are using...
higher gain (bigger dish) will get you reception further out
Actually, I've used the M1 a bit more now. I'm finding it holds a perfect signal when bouncing around in 2 or 3 foot chop trollling along the beach or at anchor. The only time I have lost the signal was out at he Hudson Canyon, where I though I was loosing it because I was zig zagging. I think it had more to do with the fact I was at or near it's coverage limits at 90 miles off shore. I found this by checking KVH's coverage area map on their website.
What I haven't tried yet, is firing it up while running at cruise speed at 26 knots. I will try that next time out....
I get quite the same results with my Intellian I2 HD. The only time I lose signal is when I fall off a cliffhanger at 30kts or if I'm fighting a fish in circles.
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"Fissues" on CH 65
Carolina Classic 28
I thought I'd just chime in on to clarify a few pieces of incorrect or perhaps misunderstood information that I saw in the conversation. Just to be up front, I'm a KVH employee and everything I'm commenting on is covered in our product materials, technical specs, and third party reviews. I'm not trying to do a hard sell but simply make sure that everyone has the facts. It's like the health care debate LOL -- there's so much misinformation flying around it's hard to know what's true or not!
First, congratulations on choosing the M1, Birdman. I'm glad to hear that you're having such a positive experience. And getting service 90 miles out? We typically tell people that the M1 is great for up to 50 miles offshore so you've proven that our specs might actually be conservative in some situations!
Like Birdman says, the TracVision M1 is a full in-motion system designed for use on sailboats and powerboats, both inshore and offshore. Perhaps some folks might have confused it with an older, larger system that we offered, the M2, which was an at-anchor/at dock system.
The M1 supports DIRECTV as well as HDTV from DISH Network and ExpressVu. Plus it receives service throughout North America (the only 12.5 inch diameter dish with continental coverage). So if you're looking for an ultra light, ultra compact satellite TV system that works outside just Miami, the M1 is the one to choose.
Take a look at our M1 information to get a better idea of the coverage, tracking speeds, and other product specs, etc., as well as see some testimonials from customers who are also have great experiences, like Birdman.
With regard to the TracVision M3, this is a 14.5 inch satellite TV system with the highest gain of any system in its size class (and two-time winner of the National Marine Electronics Association's Best Marine Entertainment Product Award). This means the M3 offers coverage 100 to 200 miles offshore. It also offers some additional flexibility in services, supporting not only DIRECTV as well as HDTV from DISH Network and ExpressVu, but also Sky Mexico and services overseas.
Check out this page if you're interested in seeing maps of the coverage offered by the M1 and the M3 systems, as well as our other TracVision systems.
You might also be interested in this fantastic article – "TV on a 25 Footer" – by Ben Ellison, previously the technical editor of Power & Motor Yacht and now the technical editor for Motor Boating and other pubs, for an expert assessment.
don't you have to add an HD module to the M1 for it get HD on dish network?? which means extra $$ after the purchase. I have been looking at the Intellian i2 (13" dish)and that already has the hd module built into the cost if the antenna.
All great questions. With regard to DIRECTV and Ka-band, yes, DIRECTV has moved the majority of its HD channels to its new Ka-band satellites. While our existing TracVision antennas don't support Ka band service, I think you can rest assured that KVH is investigating the best approach to connecting customers to these new HD broadcasts.
As for an HD module, the TracVision M1DX includes our 12V multi-service interface box, to which you can connect DISH TurboHD (also known as DISH 1000) receivers or an ExpressVu HD receiver. There are no additional components required. Plus, it provides automatic satellite switching from your remote control. To see how simple it is, take a look at our online M1 Product Configurator, which allows you to generate a custom installation diagram and parts list based on your desired satellite service, # of receivers, etc. Hope this helps clear things up, Perfect Spread!
To the guys thinking about HD, first think about what size monitor/TV you will be watching on. I have a 17" flip down LCD monitor in the cabin (looks like a large laptop display), and a 15" Garmin display at the helm which I have the 2 KVH video outputs connected to. Both of them look absolutely awesome with Directv displaying. I'm 100% sure HD on that size display will do nothing for you.
Now if your going to install a 40"er or better, have at. But otherwise, forget HD on a boat.
I agree that once you install sat tv you will never look back. I went throug same process. Both good units. On the Intellian i3 I have I can tell a small but noticeable difference when comparing HD to non HD channels on the tv. I have DirectTV as well. There are still 5 or so HD channels on the old ku band so I do use them when possible. On a 26inch Sharp Aquous and Bose surround it makes a difference but not enough for me to make the jump to the D4 from Intellian. I have tested this unit up in Canada running at 25 knots and it never skipped a beat. That is quite a ways North with a low beam angle running at a pretty good clip.
I spoke with a boat builder who put a M1 on his personal boat and he told me that when watching TV on a cloudy/rainy day his M1 does give him a little trouble but not much. Enough that he did wish he went with the M3.
I ran a few times late last week, and all weekend. Fired up the KVH M1, at 26 knots (my cruise speed) and zig zagged, did a few quick circles, stopped, hit it, turned hard both ways..... no matter what I did, I could NOT get it to stop playing the ARSE kicking the JETS gave the Patseys!!!!
KVH is right, it really is a full motion unit, it really works nicely. I could not get it to loose the signal for anything while running hard. Very cool
I'm getting addicted to Hull Truth. This thread has some really good info and customer feedback.
I think you all know I work for Intellian.
The idea of losing the satellite while underway is complex. The basic elements are anticipating the motion before it is drastic, and being able to respond. First, the Intellian method of checking (hunting) for the satellite moving off-center. It looks in a full circle 3000 times per minute without moving the dish. The traditional method of hunting moves the entire dish (noisy even with the best of motors, just like an airliner with WhisperJet engines is not totally quiet) at a slower pace. If the satellite moves relatively to the boat, then the Intellian dish can spin at 60 degrees per second to stay locked on. Our competition no longer publishes their speed, so I checked on the 'net and found a big guy on YouTube standing over a spinning M1. I timed it at 35 degrees per second at best. He looked to me like the Wizard of Oz in the "before" part of the movie, selling a crystal ball story to Dorothy, when you compare that to a moving i2.
Rather than going back to articles from 2006, you could check out Chuck Husick's (highly respected writer) article in Southern Boating this Spring. He had an i2 on his 35-foot boat in steep 8-foot seas in the shallows of the Gulf of Mexico. Didn't lose reception until it got rougher. Compare that to Birdman's experiences. You will find many articles about Intellian because it is new and it uses very modern algorithms instead of old-fashioned mechanical sensors, rate sensors and fragile compasses. In fact, Intellian (under Raymarine name), SeaKing, SeaTel and Navisystems all used the LNB on the back of the dish before the RingFire name was copied from the spark plug company by Chris' company to bury the actual concept called Cassegrain that was adopted after everybody else.
Let's clear up the i1 story next.
The Intellian company designed the i1 in an even smaller size and sent a prototype unit to a big dealer in South Florida for evaluation. KVH used the spec's from that evaluation and published them in their M1 brochure. Since then, Intellian made the dish larger and of course it works all over the US. The i1 is used for commercial vessels and particular situations where the control unit is OK. For most customers, Intellian prefers to have a higher margin of error for inclement weather and for HD over Dish Network. For most people the i2 is a better value. It has more features for pleasure boats, like more multi-ports and tri-sat switching (no remote control) is built in. The i2 is about the same size and costs less than $200 more on the street than the i1.
Intellian is not into law-suits, so we let this slide. We put our money into R&D, resulting in the d-series, for instance, the most practical medium-size boat's Ka solution, and the only one for over a year since we introduced our first large yacht solution to the Ka dilemna. Recently our competition has sent broadcast e-mails that call us "scumbags" and we recorded a sales hotline that simply says Intellian antennas simply don't work. Still we are not suing, we are choosing to let our technology do the talking.
Speaking of that Patriot's game, we had the only booth in the Newport Show last weekend with the game in HD for people to watch.
DirTV is still the thing if you want NFL Sunday Ticket, NASCAR split screen, or the side bar on CNBC with the extra data, etc.
KVH has the HD7 now. Maybe it's the same hardware as Intellian? Last year (This year?) KVH was saying go to Dish Network. Seatel came out with a BIG thing using a Slimline Home Dish in 3 axis tracking setup. I took a picture of the KVH display and put it in the other post. The real thing is obviously not clear like that display. There is an iPhone app to work with the system as well. Seatel did not have that BIG thing on display at the FLIBS but gave me a brochure.
I linked all of my boat show pics from Friday on my blog: blog.marinetelecom.net
i don't think the HD7 is the same as Intellian's technology. kvh's hd solution for directv retails for several thousand more than intellian's comparable size hd solution antenna
Good morning, all. It's Chris from KVH again and I just wanted to offer some details about the TracVision HD7, the new satellite TV system that we introduced this past week at the Ft. Lauderdale International Boat Show. The new Ka/Ku-band TracVision HD7 uses our exclusive TriAD technology to track and receive signals from all three of DIRECTV’s primary satellites at the same time, eliminating the need to switch satellites while also providing full support for HDTV DVRs.
Unlike solutions that use a home dish in a huge dome (4 ft across, 200+ pounds), the HD7 is a 24-inch diameter system designed specifically for use on boats. And unlike other Ka/Ku band solutions that only track one satellite at a time, the HD7 is receiving the signals from DIRECTV's 101W Ku-band satellite as well as the 99W and 103W Ka-band satellites at exactly the same time, just like a home dish.
With the one-satellite-at-a-time antennas, everyone is limited to watching only those channels available on a single satellite. So if you're watching Monday Night Football on ESPN HD (and broadcast by the 99W satellite) and someone changes the channel on their TV to watch Animal Planet HD (broadcast by 103W), you miss the game. With the HD7, however, that doesn't happen because everyone can watch whatever they want on whichever TV they want whenever they want. We actually had a number of people come to our exhibit in Lauderdale commenting on that exact thing happening because the other people watching TV on the boat didn't realize that simply pressing the "Channel Up" or "Channel Down" buttons might also be telling the antenna to move to a different satellite.
I invite you to visit http://www.kvh.com/hd7 to learn more about this new satellite TV system and the other innovations along with our TriAD technology, including our single-wire multiswitch that supports up to 8 HD tuners using only a single RF cable (and expandable to 32 HD tuners), our IP-enabled antenna control unit, our TracVision iPhone app that provides easy system control, the best in-motion tracking we've ever offered, and more.
For boat owners who won't be able to use a 24-inch diameter antenna, DISH HD is a great choice and we offer a range of products that are fully compatible with the DISH TurboHD service, all the way down to the 12-inch TracVision M1. While we have been asked about the possibility of creating a smaller version of the HD7, we've received official communications from senior engineers at the satellite TV services who are warning that 18-inch Ka-band antennas will not work when the satellites at 97W and 105W start broadcasting at full power in the near future. As always, our goal at KVH is to make antennas that you can depend on now and in the future.
