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Old 02-04-2017, 06:18 AM   #1
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Default Is CCA suggesting tags for rec. red snapper?

Listening to Don Dubuc this morning, I'm sure I heard him say that the CCA was suggesting red snapper tags that the fishermen could use anytime they wanted.
Can someone confirm this? I didn't think any recreational fisherman was for fish tags of any kind.
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Old 02-04-2017, 06:54 AM   #2
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I am OK with a system like MS Tails N Scales. It is essentially an electronic tagging system. Physical tags are a PITA and don't allow for real time harvest data the way an electronic system does.
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Old 02-04-2017, 07:11 AM   #3
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In their review of ARS management and quota, analyst put forth multiple options for recreational ARS fishing. One of which is a tag system to put a finite number of snapper harvest.
In the same write up, they wrote that given the allotted quota it is VERY POSSIBLE THAT SOME REC FISHERMEN WOULD BE UNABLE TO RECIEVE "ONE " ARS TAG UNDER THIS SYSTEM.
Let that thought sink in then try and get behind a tag system....
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Old 02-04-2017, 07:17 AM   #4
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Below is a quote from the "Examination of Possible Private Recreational Management
Options for Gulf of Mexico Red Snapper" Document put out by GOM FMC for Januarys meetings.
Below that is a link to the document.

Based on the estimated number of tags that would be made available using the
private recreational quota, it is likely that an individual applicant has less
(potentially much less) than a 100 percent chance of acquiring a single tag.



http://gulfcouncil.org/council_meeti...S%20vFINAL.pdf
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Old 02-04-2017, 07:29 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by jpd1123 View Post
In their review of ARS management and quota, analyst put forth multiple options for recreational ARS fishing. One of which is a tag system to put a finite number of snapper harvest.
In the same write up, they wrote that given the allotted quota it is VERY POSSIBLE THAT SOME REC FISHERMEN WOULD BE UNABLE TO RECIEVE "ONE " ARS TAG UNDER THIS SYSTEM.
Let that thought sink in then try and get behind a tag system....

Under the current system there would not be enough tags for the state of Florida, much less any other state. Then if the tags are sold auction style, REC anglers would be bidding against people with company cards...... even less of a chance of getting any tags.


Tags are a horrible idea and it is would be a stab in the back to REC anglers for CCA to be pushing this idea. I can only hope that CCA is not pushing tags for REC anglers.

Will keep saying it until it sinks in, it is a complete waste of time and effort to try to work within the FED system. The numbers do not work for REC anglers no matter how you try to cut it. The only way to fix the problem is to get control away from the FEDs. Anything else like lawsuits, tags, etc... will not work and are a complete waste of time.
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Old 02-04-2017, 07:36 AM   #6
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Within that same document, it said that even if all the states dropped their respective state seasons and became compliant with the federal season, it would only "POSSIBLY" extend the red snapper REC season to 33 days........


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Originally Posted by Jeepman View Post
Under the current system there would not be enough tags for the state of Florida, much less any other state. Then if the tags are sold auction style, REC anglers would be bidding against people with company cards...... even less of a chance of getting any tags.


Tags are a horrible idea and it is would be a stab in the back to REC anglers for CCA to be pushing this idea. I can only hope that CCA is not pushing tags for REC anglers.

Will keep saying it until it sinks in, it is a complete waste of time and effort to try to work within the FED system. The numbers do not work for REC anglers no matter how you try to cut it. The only way to fix the problem is to get control away from the FEDs. Anything else like lawsuits, tags, etc... will not work and are a complete waste of time.
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Old 02-04-2017, 07:51 AM   #7
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Within that same document, it said that even if all the states dropped their respective state seasons and became compliant with the federal season, it would only "POSSIBLY" extend the red snapper REC season to 33 days........
Yeah the numbers do not work at all for REC anglers in the current system. Only solution is new management.
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Old 02-04-2017, 04:35 PM   #8
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Surely someone with CCA can answer the original question. Are they really pushing this aganda?

I like the way jeepman thinks.
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Old 02-04-2017, 07:33 PM   #9
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As mentioned, the MS Tails and Scales is essentially a tagging system for caught fish. Obviously there is a big difference in tagging caught fish to be counted against a quota and buying tags to catch fish. The ONLY good thing i heard in the Reef Management meetings this past week was some remorse against a reef fish tagging program simply because the Feds could not rule out the Eco-Monsters buying up a large portion of the tags and not using them, which would throw there "perfect" system out of whack.
I'd also like to hear from the CCA's rep on this before sending in my next check.
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Old 02-04-2017, 07:56 PM   #10
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The report cited above is from the Gulf Anglers Focus Group Initiative which I participated in many of the meetings held in 2016 - although several Council members attended some of the meetings, including Roy Crabtree, this was not a Gulf Council function but rather was brought about by many in the recreational fishing community itself.

Representatives from CCA, ASA, TRCP, as well as headboat, charterboat and private recs were brought together to attempt to "work within the system" to address the concerted push by the enviros/commercial interests to push fish tags on the private recs.

Last year, the EDF front groups demanded the formation of a Private Rec Angler AP to discuss "innovative solutions to our recreational fishing seasons" - double speak for FISH TAGS. There was absolutely no other reason for the formation of this Private Rec AP, as fish tags are the last piece of the EDF Plan to implement Catch Shares across the recreational fishing sector as outlined in the EDF Progress report in 2009;
walker-foundation.org/Files/walker/2009/GulfofMXupdate.doc

Members of the recreational fishing community came together in this GAFGI in an attempt to discuss what little options are on the table for us at this time, but due to lack of sufficient data, the group did not make any recommendations to the Council but identified several management options that they may want to look at. It provides a solid framework to educate the newly formed rec ap to base their recommendations from.

Facilitators from FSU were brought in to conduct the meetings in an impartial manner and forced many of us to discuss unpalatable options such as fish tags even though we would rather just throw them in the trash can. We held our noses and vetted fish tags pretty intensely and documented that there is absolutely no way that they could work in the Gulf recreational fishing sector.

I found it disappointing however that the speaker giving the GAFGI report to the Gulf Council kept the door open for fish tags by suggesting that possible combinations of options presented may be the best answer.

The current NMFS/EDF/Gulf Council regime, that has pushed Catch Shares upon us for the last 10 YEARS, have failed miserably in their charge to effectively manage our fishery resources for the best interests of ALL involved. The proof is in the pudding with our 11 day season last year compared to 44 days for for-profit boats and 365 days for for-profit commercial operations.

It's only going to get worse this year and years to come with their bogus data showing the private recs overfishing their quota which will result in reductions in this years quota due to mandated "payback provisions". It's a recipe for a TOTAL SHUTDOWN of our Gulf recreational fisheries, which leaves it wide open for the for-profit entities to profit from their "assets" (our fish).

The Trump administration may be our best hope to stop these fools pushing the Catch Share Cancer before it completely kills the patient (our recreational fishing heritage and future) but time is running out.

Last edited by Tom Hilton; 02-04-2017 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 02-04-2017, 08:04 PM   #11
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As mentioned, the MS Tails and Scales is essentially a tagging system for caught fish. Obviously there is a big difference in tagging caught fish to be counted against a quota and buying tags to catch fish. The ONLY good thing i heard in the Reef Management meetings this past week was some remorse against a reef fish tagging program simply because the Feds could not rule out the Eco-Monsters buying up a large portion of the tags and not using them, which would throw there "perfect" system out of whack.
I'd also like to hear from the CCA's rep on this before sending in my next check.
I respectfully disagree with your claim that the Tails and Scales is a tagging system for caught fish. This system is a clone of The OFS Permit Plan that I presented to the Gulf Council 7 years ago. It simply documents how many fishermen are fishing out of what port, when they fished, how many fish they landed/discarded, providing information that is currently lacking that is badly needed in order to make informed fisheries management decisions. It's a mandatory requirement since "voluntary" reporting provides absolutely ZERO usable data - you MUST report before going out again or be fined.

I would like to see all 5 Gulf states fisheries management commissions adopt a standardized system such as this.
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Old 02-05-2017, 05:57 AM   #12
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I respectfully disagree with your claim that the Tails and Scales is a tagging system for caught fish. This system is a clone of The OFS Permit Plan that I presented to the Gulf Council 7 years ago. It simply documents how many fishermen are fishing out of what port, when they fished, how many fish they landed/discarded, providing information that is currently lacking that is badly needed in order to make informed fisheries management decisions. It's a mandatory requirement since "voluntary" reporting provides absolutely ZERO usable data - you MUST report before going out again or be fined.

I would like to see all 5 Gulf states fisheries management commissions adopt a standardized system such as this.
Maybe I didn't push my point across correctly. I completely agree with the MS Tails and Scales concept and objective. In my mind, a "tag" is a counting procedure. The T&S system allows for a way to quantify effort and catch, both of which are large factors in the Fed equation. So, not a physical "tag" on caught fish, but a method to accomplish fish count. I agree with you and the need for a system like T&S across the board to defend the Rec stance on proper management.
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Old 02-05-2017, 07:47 AM   #13
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. I agree with you and the need for a system like T&S across the board to defend the Rec stance on proper management.
REC angler would be cutting there own throats if they push for gulf wide system like T&S

FEDs would lower stock numbers, lower TAC for RECs and or raise the average weight of fish caught for REC fishermen. All methods allows the FEDs to keep the REC fishing season short and limited access. No matter how good the catch data is, it could be perfect it would not make much of a difference in the seasons from the FEDs. It is micro managing a problems that needs to fix from the top down, not the bottom up.

There is no method, none that work in the current system for REC anglers.



it is sad that freshwater, bays, rivers, etc... are manged so much better then offshore. The difference is staggering between state management and FED management. States can manage freshwater lakes that see massive pressure and do a great job. Yet when it comes to the gulf of Mexico people are fooled into thinking they need to call in before each fishing trip.... think of the outrage if freshwater fishermen had to call in before each fishing trip......... The problem is not the catch reporting, the problem is management. RECs are only screwing themselves and setting president for more intrusive and wasteful management if they keep pushing for mandatory reporting.

Last edited by Jeepman; 02-05-2017 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 02-05-2017, 08:39 AM   #14
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Jeepman is right - here is a graphic showing comparable areas of state water vs federal red snapper habitat in the Gulf. The state water area is miniscule in comparison to the federal area which contains 95% of red snapper habitat such as oil platforms, artificial reefs, natural reefs, etc. Yet, fish landed in state waters is the scapegoat federal fisheries managers use to justify reducing our seasons DRASTICALLY each year.

You can also see that the coastal estuaries/bays where our redfish, speckled trout, flounder, etc. live are just a fraction of offshore state water areas. Consider that there are probably 10X (or more) inshore fishermen than offshore fishermen, and that they have more fishing days than offshore fishermen, and that they enjoy more liberal daily bag limits. In other words, the amount of fish harvested is exponentially MORE than Gulf red snapper, and our state fisheries managers have done a GREAT job managing these species WITHOUT the need to count every pound, every fish, etc.

I am personally shocked that NONE of our fisheries scientists have made note of this glaring discrepancy.

Where Jeepman is wrong is ignoring the effects that Catch Shares are having on our fishing access - until this cancer called Catch Shares is nuked, NOTHING will change. Commercial Catch Share entitlement programs need to pay Resource Rent directly to the government and leasing shares between fishermen needs to be abolished. Now they are setting the stage for commercial corporations to lease us "their" fish. It's really getting to be beyond ridiculous.

HR 3094 is a good start, but is not broad enough to make a difference at this point.
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Old 02-05-2017, 08:52 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Jeepman View Post
REC angler would be cutting there own throats if they push for gulf wide system like T&S

FEDs would lower stock numbers, lower TAC for RECs and or raise the average weight of fish caught for REC fishermen. All methods allows the FEDs to keep the REC fishing season short and limited access. No matter how good the catch data is, it could be perfect it would not make much of a difference in the seasons from the FEDs. It is micro managing a problems that needs to fix from the top down, not the bottom up.

There is no method, none that work in the current system for REC anglers.



it is sad that freshwater, bays, rivers, etc... are manged so much better then offshore. The difference is staggering between state management and FED management. States can manage freshwater lakes that see massive pressure and do a great job. Yet when it comes to the gulf of Mexico people are fooled into thinking they need to call in before each fishing trip.... think of the outrage if freshwater fishermen had to call in before each fishing trip......... The problem is not the catch reporting, the problem is management. RECs are only screwing themselves and setting president for more intrusive and wasteful management if they keep pushing for mandatory reporting.

State management is the only way forward, I agree. But there is going to be a need to properly manage the resource through some means of data collection. I see no reason why the T&S system would not be the best to continue proper management under a Gulf States managed system.
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Old 02-05-2017, 08:57 AM   #16
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Where Jeepman is wrong is ignoring the effects that Catch Shares are having on our fishing access - until this cancer called Catch Shares is nuked, NOTHING will change. Commercial Catch Share entitlement programs need to pay Resource Rent directly to the government and leasing shares between fishermen needs to be abolished. Now they are setting the stage for commercial corporations to lease us "their" fish. It's really getting to be beyond ridiculous.

HR 3094 is a good start, but is not broad enough to make a difference at this point.


I am not ignoring them, I just understand that they are working for the commercial sector and REC's need to spend all efforts on our problems. If Commercial sector likes catch shares, let them have them.

HR3094 is the best chance RECs have at getting our fishery managed correct. HR3094 is the first step down the road to correct this huge mess. Government does not work they way you seem to think it does. You can not just go in and change everything, or as you want to do ALT/CONTROL/DELETE. This is great idea, but just does not work that way. You want to try to fix everything in one big fell swoop, this is just not going to work

There has to be framework for states to take control of all management, HR3094 puts this framework in place. Until the framework is in place to make the change, nothing will change. HR3094 or something similar has to be in place for any change to be made.


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State management is the only way forward, I agree. But there is going to be a need to properly manage the resource through some means of data collection. I see no reason why the T&S system would not be the best to continue proper management under a Gulf States managed system.

States already have proven management systems in place, no need to change what works. Self reporting is just adding more cost that is not needed.

Everyone seems to think that better data will somehow fix the current system. This is just not the case, there is plenty of data already, more then enough. Great data means nothing if the people compiling the data do not have your best interest at heart. By this point every REC fishermen should have figured this out. More data is not the solution, and should not be a concern for REC anglers. Better data is just a red herring meant to keep RECs chasing there tails in the current FED system. Even with better data, the FEDs just ignored it. Best to see the problem for what it is and stop wasting time playing games with the FEDs. Just fire the FEDs and put the states in control. That should be the only thing REC anglers are pushing for, new management. Anything else is a waste of time.

Last edited by Jeepman; 02-05-2017 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 02-05-2017, 09:51 AM   #17
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Commercial Catch Shares are funding this war on recreational fishing, and ignoring that fact is not going to get us anywhere.

Transferring our federal fisheries management to the states is in effect CTRL/ALT/DEL - why not provide a comprehensive plan to solve the problem once and for all? Just focusing on red snapper is playing into their game - they have expanded their Catch Share grab to include greater amberjack, gray triggerfish, gag grouper, and red grouper. And, it won't be long before that is expanded to include Mahi, Wahoo, Cobia, and every other federally-managed species.

We need to be PROACTIVE instead of REACTIVE.
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Old 02-05-2017, 10:19 AM   #18
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Commercial Catch Shares are funding this war on recreational fishing, and ignoring that fact is not going to get us anywhere.

Transferring our federal fisheries management to the states is in effect CTRL/ALT/DEL - why not provide a comprehensive plan to solve the problem once and for all? .

Because you will be fighting everyone, and they will fight back hard. RECs have been doing this for years, it has failed.


It is past time for RECs to figure out to let the Commercial do what they want and concentrate on our problems. Plenty of fish out there for everyone but the way the FEDs has the system set up it pits each sector against each other. State management does not have this problem.

So it is a waste of time for you to go in head strong like you are going to change everything, attack commercial, etc.... Just not going to happen. Concentrate on what we know will work HR3094, just that in itself is going to be hard enough. Everything else is a waste of time.


Until there is framework in place for the Gulf states to take control from the FEDs, everything else is a waste of time. Not going to delete the whole system and start at new, just does not work that way.
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Old 02-05-2017, 11:05 AM   #19
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Right now the law says they can require that the commercial IFQ shareholders to pay Resource Rent, yet our federal fisheries managers have decided not to require them to do so. Why? It is the proper and legal thing to do, yet they are leaving hundreds of millions of dollars on the table in the last 10 years (more specifically in the commercial shareholder bank accounts) that COULD have been used to help our nation's fisheries.

Right now the law says that Catch Shares are not mandatory, yet they are doing everything they can to implement them, including our recreational fisheries. Why?

These 2 facts are right now inextricably tied into each other, and it is reasonable and proper to attack this problem straight on.

We are in a war here Jeepman - I would much rather prefer Patton or Mad Dog get it done rather than your weak Nevill Chamberlain approach to appease the enemy.
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Old 02-05-2017, 11:30 AM   #20
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Right now the law says they can require that the commercial IFQ shareholders to pay Resource Rent, yet our federal fisheries managers have decided not to require them to do so. Why? It is the proper and legal thing to do, yet they are leaving hundreds of millions of dollars on the table in the last 10 years (more specifically in the commercial shareholder bank accounts) that COULD have been used to help our nation's fisheries.

Right now the law says that Catch Shares are not mandatory, yet they are doing everything they can to implement them, including our recreational fisheries. Why?

These 2 facts are right now inextricably tied into each other, and it is reasonable and proper to attack this problem straight on.

We are in a war here Jeepman - I would much rather prefer Patton or Mad Dog get it done rather than your weak Nevill Chamberlain approach to appease the enemy.

and none of that make any difference in REC seasons, nor does it change who is in charge of the fishery. It is a waste of time right now, it changes nothing for RECs. RECs need to worry about REC's problems. The REC problem is management, worrying about anything else is just noise, waste of time and effort.

You think your approach is like Patton, hate to tell you it is not. Even Patton knew he could not take on all fronts all the time. Patton uses pinpoint attacks on fronts he knew he could win, then clean up the rest once he broke thru. Patton built a framework to work from, he did not halfass attack everyone all the time.
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