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Old 02-04-2012, 07:58 AM
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Default Squealing Brake Pads/Rotors...

Hey Y'all!
I recently did a lot of work on my wife's Dodge Grand caravan. I replaced the front brake rotors with brand new ones. I replaced both front brake calipers with re-manufactured ones. I replaced both front brake lines (the rubber lines) and, I purchased ceramic pads to help control the crazy brake dust issue. I also installed all new brake hardware on the front. On the pads, I used the blue anti-squeal brake compound that is applied to the back of the pads.

On her van, when coming to a stop right before the vehicle comes to a dead stop, the front brakes will SQUEAL terribly loud. This occurs the last three or so seconds, when the vehicle is barely moving at all. On her vehicle, it gets worse AFTER the rotors & brakes components are warm from driving a short while.

Everything is wearing properly. Nothing is sticking or over heating, the pads aren't loose in the brackets, etc. The rotors are not glazed (remember, I bought new ones, and I cleaned the protective coating off very well prior to installation, and was extra careful not to get any greasy finger or hand prints on the rotors or pads)

I pulled them off, and applied more anti-squeal, this time from a spray can. Still the same issue. They stop GREAT, no problem there, just that damn squealing.

On my '07 Expedition, I installed new front pads. The originals were still serviceable, but getting low. I had a MAJOR problem with brake dust, so, I purchased ceramic pads for my vehicle as well. I didn't turn the rotors, they are not warped, but, do have some what of a glazed look to them. I'll probably be purchasing brand new rotors, I want to get the ones that have cooling grooves cut into the braking surface.

Heres the issue with my vehicle; After I installed the new ceramic pads, in the morning when I back out of the driveway, both sides will SQUEAL if I so much as tap the brakes. It's LOUD! Moving forward, they don't squeal at all, or VERY LITTLE. Once I drive a couple miles & everything is warm, they don't make a sound. If the outside temperature is 65* or higher, they are either silent, or squeal very little, if it's below 65* or very cold, they wake up the whole neighborhood!

I have replaced many, many brakes in my life. I have NEVER had ANY problems like I have with these two vehicles. Is this something to do with the brake pads being ceramic? If so, what do I do to stop, or at least reduce the squeal considerably? It's driving me (and the wife) NUTS!! Any help is much appreciated.
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Old 02-04-2012, 08:14 AM
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Some do a bedding process on ceramics ....also I've found chamfering the edges help but break in is important with ceramic break pads if not they'll squeak forever.... Google bedding process and give it a try
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Old 02-04-2012, 08:22 AM
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Just read it - That bedding process sounds well wierd - let us know if it works for you. Never did any of that stuff and never had squeeling - I mean it seems like with modern hi tech products you shouldn't have to break them in..???? Just changed my pads and had no idea what they were made of. Are they all ceramic now or is it a performance or niche product or something?
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Old 02-04-2012, 08:35 AM
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2 things
Did you replace the shims
If you did replace them did you coat the back of the pad and lay the shim in it?
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Old 02-04-2012, 08:35 AM
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Some pads and rotors just squeel..not much you can do. Gets right down to the composition of the cast iron and the composition of the pads.

americans worry about squeel more than Europeans...lotsa squeeky brakes over there.

As mentioned, chamfering the edge helps..sometimes. So does grooving the pads.
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Old 02-04-2012, 08:42 AM
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I think I'd rather have some brake dust than loud ass brakes, ceramics can be noisy!
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Old 02-04-2012, 08:52 AM
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Are the pins in the caliper brackets moving freely? Have you pulled the calipers back off to see if there is any abnormal wear on them? What about in reverse, do they make the same noise when you come to a stop when your going in reverse?

I've done many brake jobs as well. The most recent one I've done was about 2 weeks ago on my '07 Honda Accord. Did all 4 wheels. New rotors on the back, the front rotors were done on the machine. For this brake job, I went with Wagner ceramic pads. First time I had ever used ceramic pads. I liked the Wagners because they do not require shims (the shim on the Wagners is integrated into the backing plate). It said in the instructions that came with the pads to NOT apply grease or any brake quieting product to the back of the pads. First time I had ever seen that, but I followed their instructions none-the-less. I have not heard a peep of noise out of these brakes and they are extremely smooth and have good feel. In doing this brake job, I did discover that one of the caliper pins was froze in the bracket. The little rubber boot (that surrounds the exposed area of the pin) must've allowed water to get in. I had to buy a rebuild kit. Cleaned / honed it out just like you'd do with a drum brake cylinder, then installed the rebuild kit. The wagner pads were about twice the price of the lower priced pads, but they will replace them one time, free of charge. Doesn't matter if it's due to normal wear.
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Old 02-04-2012, 09:14 AM
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From a Porsche site:

http://www.ecstuning.com/stage/edoc/brakebedding.pdf


My understanding is that ceramic pads require more heat in order to work properly (which might explain why race cars use them). Grocery getters don't produce those heating forces, is my guess (especially since you have a lot of experience with brakes and this is a new one to you)
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Old 02-04-2012, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weekend-Hooker View Post
Some do a bedding process on ceramics ....also I've found chamfering the edges help but break in is important with ceramic break pads if not they'll squeak forever.... Google bedding process and give it a try
I Googled it, pretty involved,IMO. I may end up having to give it a go, though.

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Originally Posted by LI Sound Grunt View Post
Just read it - That bedding process sounds well wierd - let us know if it works for you. Never did any of that stuff and never had squeeling - I mean it seems like with modern hi tech products you shouldn't have to break them in..???? Just changed my pads and had no idea what they were made of. Are they all ceramic now or is it a performance or niche product or something?
Right? If I do opt to try it, I'll post the results.

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2 things
Did you replace the shims
If you did replace them did you coat the back of the pad and lay the shim in it?
The pads had shims already installed from the factory. They are not meant to be removed. I may try to gently pry the shil back just enough to squirt a little anti-squeal between the shim & back of the pad...or, I may end up returning the pads from her van & exchanging them for plain old semi-metallic pads. At least she'll be off my back, then

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Originally Posted by fishinmaniac View Post
I think I'd rather have some brake dust than loud ass brakes, ceramics can be noisy!
Normally, I would agree. It's just that the brake dust was excessive, IMO. I let it go a bit too long between cleaning, and the brake duse did some minor cosmetic damage to the rims, not very noticeable, but I know it's there. BUT, inside the rim, the back side, the brake dust has pretty much imbedded/etched itself into the metal so bad that I could only get some of it off. The only way to properly clean that part is when the rim is off, which is a HUGE PITA unless I'm rotating the tires.

I don't always rotate my tires, as the place I bought them will do it for free for the life of the tires. If my back weren't shot, I wouldn't have any problem pulling the tires & cleaning them every couple months, but, as things are, that's just not an option for me.

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Originally Posted by Brad1 View Post
Are the pins in the caliper brackets moving freely? Have you pulled the calipers back off to see if there is any abnormal wear on them? What about in reverse, do they make the same noise when you come to a stop when your going in reverse?

I've done many brake jobs as well. The most recent one I've done was about 2 weeks ago on my '07 Honda Accord. Did all 4 wheels. New rotors on the back, the front rotors were done on the machine. For this brake job, I went with Wagner ceramic pads. First time I had ever used ceramic pads. I liked the Wagners because they do not require shims (the shim on the Wagners is integrated into the backing plate). It said in the instructions that came with the pads to NOT apply grease or any brake quieting product to the back of the pads. First time I had ever seen that, but I followed their instructions none-the-less. I have not heard a peep of noise out of these brakes and they are extremely smooth and have good feel. In doing this brake job, I did discover that one of the caliper pins was froze in the bracket. The little rubber boot (that surrounds the exposed area of the pin) must've allowed water to get in. I had to buy a rebuild kit. Cleaned / honed it out just like you'd do with a drum brake cylinder, then installed the rebuild kit. The wagner pads were about twice the price of the lower priced pads, but they will replace them one time, free of charge. Doesn't matter if it's due to normal wear.
Yes, all the pins move nice & free & smooth. They are ALL new. I installed new pins, new pin boots, and, the bracket that the pins slide into are also new (remanufactured).

On her van, the noise is only when moving forward. On mine, mostly in reverse, but, if it does do it moving forward, it's the same sound, just not as loud. Also, as I said, once I drive a short while, or if the temperature is 65* or above, they don't make a sound!

All the components on my vehicle function as they should with no abnormal wear showing anywhere. On a side note; I replaced the rear pads on my vehicle about a year ago, and never a peep from those.

I will probably end up either replacing my rotors with a "high performance" rotor (Has slots cut into the surface to help the rotor run cooler, and guide dust/water, etc. away from the surface & pads)
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Old 02-04-2012, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bamaboy473 View Post
From a Porsche site:

http://www.ecstuning.com/stage/edoc/brakebedding.pdf


My understanding is that ceramic pads require more heat in order to work properly (which might explain why race cars use them). Grocery getters don't produce those heating forces, is my guess (especially since you have a lot of experience with brakes and this is a new one to you)
That makes good sense. Yes, all my brake experience has been with semi-metallic & organic brake pad material, etc. I've done no less than a few hundred brake jobs (Used to own my own shop many years ago...I've forgotten more than I care to admit & been out of it 20 years or more now) This is the first time I ever used ceramic. I was concerned about noise, in the back of my mind, for the exact reason you state...the bedding procedure you posted a link to is a bit simpler in description, and makes perfect sense.
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Old 02-04-2012, 10:15 AM
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To be perfectly clear, when bedding in brakes doing panic stops from 60MPH, never allow the car to come to a complete stop....slow to 5-10MPH, then speed back up to 60 and repeat for 5 or 6 times. Then drive the car for 5 minutes or so without stopping in order for the pads to cool down.

IF you come to complete stops, there's the chance that hot pad material will transfer to the rotor and glaze. You don't want that to happen.

P.S. I'd toss the ceramics and go with OEM types.
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Old 02-04-2012, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bamaboy473 View Post
To be perfectly clear, when bedding in brakes doing panic stops from 60MPH, never allow the car to come to a complete stop....slow to 5-10MPH, then speed back up to 60 and repeat for 5 or 6 times. Then drive the car for 5 minutes or so without stopping in order for the pads to cool down.

IF you come to complete stops, there's the chance that hot pad material will transfer to the rotor and glaze. You don't want that to happen.

P.S. I'd toss the ceramics and go with OEM types.
I think I will probably go with the OEM pads...which sucks because of the dust factor, but, oh, well. However...I will first try the bedding process AFTER I get my rotors re-surfaced or replaced. I looked more closely at them today, and, I was surprised to see a noticeable amount of surface metal (maybe 5 to 6 thousandths) worn away. Not anything drastic or irregular, and, I'm surprised I didn't catch that the first time I had everything apart! I guess I really am getting old.
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Old 02-04-2012, 11:09 AM
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I think I'll have my mechanic continue to use the old style pads that don't squeal.
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Old 02-04-2012, 03:04 PM
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I put ceramic pads in the same room as I do Nitrogen-filled tires; something that shops can charge more for while offering nothing of note other than a "cool" factor.
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Old 02-04-2012, 03:14 PM
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The blue stuff is not anti squeal compond. It is to help cut down on brake pad rattle.
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Old 02-04-2012, 06:54 PM
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The blue stuff is not anti squeal compond. It is to help cut down on brake pad rattle.

Yes, but, it is also "marketed" as anti-squeal by "absorbing" the harmonic vibration that's transmitted from the rotors & pads...same thing as the stuff in the spray can.
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Old 02-05-2012, 09:56 AM
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I stick with semi-metalic pads. As for the dust, I bought brake dust shields that fit in the rear of the rims. Problem solved. Google brake dust shields, tons of choices.


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Old 02-05-2012, 10:36 AM
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the blue stuff on the pads does nothing,, probably dried up and crispy already. You need black synthetic brake grease spead on the back side of all pads, and all sliding surfaces. this stuff will still be there when the pads are worn out. then try the bedding procedure. if you still have squeeks could just be the pads, some just squeel. alot of cars come factory with ceramic pads, also its usually best to start with new, or just resurfaced rotors. I cant say this is a must, but when you have alot of brake noise you'll never know if its because of the rotors.
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Old 02-05-2012, 10:46 AM
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I always do my own brakes. I change the rotors out and pads at the same time. I have been using ceramic for along time and I am amazed at how long they last. I have never had to "bed" them nor do I put blue stuff on them or greasy stuff. They are smooth and I hear no noise like mentioned above. Maybe you are over thinking it?
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:39 AM
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I stick with semi-metalic pads. As for the dust, I bought brake dust shields that fit in the rear of the rims. Problem solved. Google brake dust shields, tons of choices.


Ron
I've seen these at various places, mostly online. I always figured they were either a gimmick that at best would offer some dust protection/deflection, or, they wouldn't work at all. Now that I have actually heard from a credible source (you) that they do indeed work, I will look into them if I can't get the squealing to stop & have to revert back to SM pads.

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the blue stuff on the pads does nothing,, probably dried up and crispy already. You need black synthetic brake grease spead on the back side of all pads, and all sliding surfaces. this stuff will still be there when the pads are worn out. then try the bedding procedure. if you still have squeeks could just be the pads, some just squeel. alot of cars come factory with ceramic pads, also its usually best to start with new, or just resurfaced rotors. I cant say this is a must, but when you have alot of brake noise you'll never know if its because of the rotors.

Would you believe that NOBODY around here even carries that stuff! They have a brake silicone which is for the pins, etc., and the blue junk. The stuff in the spray can that I used on my vehicle is red. I sprayed it onto the whole back of the brake pads in layers. I allowed each coat/layer to dry or become very tacky before the next. I put no less than 10 coats/layers on the back of the pads.

Again, I should have turned my rotors but was in a hurry & didn't have time to pull them & find a shop that actually still turns brake rotors. I'll probably just buy new ones. Any comments on the rotors that have the slots cut in them to improve surface cooling? Are they worth the extra $$?

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I always do my own brakes. I change the rotors out and pads at the same time. I have been using ceramic for along time and I am amazed at how long they last. I have never had to "bed" them nor do I put blue stuff on them or greasy stuff. They are smooth and I hear no noise like mentioned above. Maybe you are over thinking it?
Right. I've never bedded any brakes either. I hear ceramics, besides creating much less dust than other type pads, do last a lot longer as well. Although, The front pads still had maybe 5,000 to 7000 miles left before they would have been totally ready to replace. That would have put me right around 73,000 to 75,000 miles at replacement mileage. But, that's close enough for me. When I wait until it's that close, I often end up with metal on metal
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