It's a long story, at the end, I will ask if you think what I am doing is the right thing, what you would have done, and, solicite any opinions or advice you may have to offer. The vehicle involved, is a 1994 Chrysler Town & Country, yes, I know this is quite an old vehicle, but, its history is as follows; I purchased it from the original owner in 2004 with 123,000 miles on it. It had a bad water pump, otherwise, was in MINT condition. All power,, rear air,leather, the works,it was the top of the line T&C, garage kept, dealer maintained with all the records to prove it. I was in the market for a good, affordable vehicle, that would be dependable and roomy enough for me, the wife and my twins, at the time , they were 9 years old. I never bought new vehicles, to me, it's a waste of money, with depreciation, and, so many new vehicles haveso many problems(until 2006, when I went against my better judgement and bought my 2007 Ford Expedition EL Eddie Bauer...a great SUV, but, for a new auto, has its share of problems, and, I hate payments... who dosen't) This van looked SHOW ROOM inside & out, and the only reason the elderly woman was selling it was because her husband recently died, and her son pretty much forced her to buy a brand new vehicle because he was afraid this one would leave her stranded because it had 123,000 miles. Anyway, the asking price was $2,300.00, I bargined her to $1,975.00, basically, to cover the price of the waterpump repair, and, there was something else, but, I can't remember.

I took the van to a repair shop where I knew and trusted the owner.(incase you ask yourself later down the post, why I didn't take it to him for the repairs you'll soon read about, is, because he burned out and changed proffessions)I had him install a new wp, new in tank (factory)fuel pump (nothing wrong with old one, but, over 100,000 miles, insurance to me) had him do a full tune up, change all belts, hose, idler pully, etc.mount 2 new tires, and it was good to go, bill was about $1,000. I drove that van evryday. Made several trips to New York, North Carolina, Tennessee, never broke down, never had an issue. It was a wonderful riding vehicle, plenty of power with the 3.8 V6. I had a premium set of Good Year Assurance tires mounted in late 2004, best tires I EVER owned. In 2006 I replaced the following parts, I knew from experience that they were at the point they could fail with little or no warning: TPS (throttle sensor) coil pack, crank and cam sensor, oxygen sensor, and, several other sensors I can't think of right now, the cost of parts & labor, $800.00 (good vehicle, great motor, burns NO oil, smooth tranny...oh, yeah, had the tranny filter & fluid changed when I bought it, and again in 2006) And, also alternator and starter. My reasoning, when you have a older vehicle,and it's a great one, like mine was, replacing these parts is what I call preventative maintenance. I mean, this van rode & drove & looked like it was brand new. I had no worries about hopping in and driving 1000 miles or more, I had faith in my vehicle.

Now, in late 2006, the third vehicle I had bought for my wife, she managed to run it into the ground...that woman is HARD on a car...Ibought her several MINT vehicles, and, within a year, they looked like a bomb went off inside them, but, mechanically, I maintained them for saftey sake, because my kids had to ride in them. She managed to do some serious body damage to her Buick Lesabre Limited, another MINT car she ruined in the course of two years. You couldn't open either of the passenger side doors, so, I junked it, and, gave her my baby, that HURT. I then purchased my 2007 Expedition...yeah, I love the vehicle, but, it has issues it shouldn't for a new vehicle...but, thats for another post, someday.

Now we get to the issue at hand. She drove the van, with no problems, actually took pretty good care of it, because, I told her, in no uncertain terms, that this was it, this was the LAST vehicle I was buying/giving her, although I still paid for general upkeep, like oil changes, tire rotation, etc. The transmission mount broke, so when in reverse, the motor would lift up about 5 inches. The tires were down to a littleless than 1/2 there tread life, and, it had a very MINOR pull to the right, but, still, rode smooth & even. I took it in toa shop I have used many times, usually(There were some other issues, but, these were somewhat resolved...nothing like what you are about to read)with good results. They had undergone alot of personel changes, from mechanics to management. So, first, they replaced the WRONG motor mount, but,I figured, O.k., it dosen't matter, with 168,000 miles, it'll need it sooner than later, so I paid the $161.00 for that one.Next, they install the correct one, another $161.00 then, mount2 front tires, and allign it. I pick it up. It drives good, but, I notice a very, very, slight "shimmy" that seems to be comming from the front end. I take it back, they tell me the left side (driver side) inner axle bootwas torn, and the joint is worn, this is causing the "shimmy" Now, I knew the boot was bad, but, had neglected to change the axle to this point. Also, let me state, the motor or tranny NEVER EVER leaked so much as ONE DROP of fluid...EVER.

I tell them to change the axle, $200.00 parts & labor. When we pick it up, I make the mistake of dropping the wife off, I pay the bill and she drives it away. The next morning, I look out the window, there, in or, rather on, my driveway, is a huge puddle of tranny fluid. I call the wife, tell her to get the van home right away so I can check the fluid level. I call the shop, talk to the service manager, I ask him if they changed the axle seal while the axle was out? His reply was, "NO" I freaked on him, I told him this (In my opinion & when I had my own shop) was STANDARD proceedure especially on a vehicle with high miles. The axle is out, the seal is easy to get to, and only $10.00 part, about a 10 minute job to pull the old one out & install a new one,WTF??? He says, bring it back, he'll install one free of charge. So, back to the shop. They pull the axle again, install a new seal, and, we pick it up. Three days later...big puddle of fluid again, last time, it lost 2 quarts, this time one quart...now I'm reallypissed. Take it back, tell them the axle is wrong...they argue & fuss, no, it is the correct axle, they say. I go to the dealer, buy a factory seal, stand there while they pull the axle out, and, I can plainly see where they damaged the seal installing the axle. They install my factory seal. Wife drives it home. It starts to leak a few days later. Take it back. They pull the axle, order a NEW one from NAPA insted of a remanufactured one, from NAPA. There is a lenght difference in the axles. They install the correct axle. Still leaks, BUT, now, pulls HARD! to the left, and the whole front end shakes like it's going to fall apart. I'm so freakin' pissed. I talk to the store manager, demand they fix it, don't call me until it's right. Meanwhile, I'm dropping & picking the wife up from work, kids to school, etc. Again, they call, say it's ready. I'm in a hurry, wife needs to be at work, so, I drop her off, tell her to call me & let me know how it drives. She calls me, says it feels better, but not "right". Well, due to work, and, many other events, it's a few days until I get in it to drive it. MY GOD! I can't keep it on the road...it pulls so hard to the left, and, it vibrates and shakes on accelleration so bad...I head right for the repair shop. As I turnonto the frontage road, a few hundred feet from the shop, the left (new) axle tears apart and the van grinds to a wobbley stop. I get out, I'm so angry, I'm shaking...I march right up to the store manager, point to the van, tell him to get it, fix it, what the hell is wrong with your mechanics...why can't they fix this thing, they seem to have damaged something and can't get it right. I demand they put my wife in a rental vehivle, a minivan, and they will pay for it, so, the store manager agrees. I get them to drive me home, take her to the rental agency, she rents a minivan. Several days go by. They call, say it's at the tranny shop, the differential bearing is wore out, causing excesive slop which in turn is causing the seal to leak, front end to pull, shake, etc, BULLSHIT! I say, it was fine until you guys changed axles...he says, oh, it's just a coiencidence...But, I just want it back, I'll deal with the other crap later. Tranny shop puts a special kit in, for $400.00, to save me $600.00 if they have to pull the tranny. The leak is fixed...for now. BUT, it still pulls and shakes AWFUL...undriveable.

I leave it at the tranny shop...but, I pay the $400.00, go back and tell them to go get it, install a FACTORY axle, for starters. They do. No better, they really screwed something up. They remove my set (I had them install a complete set of GoodYear Assurance Tires during the process...before it ever got to this point) of new tires, which were the performance directional Assurance tires, which is what I had on prior to the new set, never a problem. They put a different type of Assurance tires, made for a softer ride. They call, say that "fixed" it, it was the tires...I go there. I test drive it. On the back streets, no pull under 45 mph, still a wooble on right turns and a bit on acceleration. I take it onto the bypass, up to 60 mph, can't keep it on the road, and it shakes & wobbles in the front end...not as bad as before, but, still there. I take it back, tell them, no good. They keep it another week. Now, all total, they've had it almost 6 weeks. The rental is over $1,200.00. I talk to the store manager, he tells me, we can't fix it. We don't know what else to do. We'll pay the rental bill. You take it to the dealer. If they firnd we did damage, we'll pay to fix it. fine.

I return the rental, but, re-rent under my name, becauseI know it'll not be a one day fix. I take it to the dealer. Driving it there was horrible, it was worse than it was at any of the other times, it shook, shimmied, wobbled, pulled so hard left it was scarey, and, when comming to a stop, a few times, the tranny ground and shook like the torque converter was messed up.Two days later, the dealer calls me, basically, the service manager says (I explained when I dropped it off everything from start to finish) We can't find any apparent issues, we don't see any apparent problem with what they did. It could be from the aftermarket motor mounts causing the transaxle to sag, it could be too much freeload on the axle from something the tranny shop did, it could be a number of things. We would have to start by pulling the tranny and inspect it for damage....basically, I was screwed. My vehicle that went in driving near perfect came out undriveable and nobody could fix it...I could no longer spend the time or $$, she was gone, forever.

My wife needed a car. I couldn't keep renting one. I bought her (I made the $4000.00 downpayment) a 2004 Grand Caravan, from the dealership my (her) van was at. They wanted $10.900.00 I got them to $8,900.00with my old one as trade (yeah, right) but, in the deal, made them install my new GoodYear's on the 2004, and, it was an AS-IS, but, got them to sigh a 6 month powertrain warranty with a $200.00 deductiable that they only reserve for either the newer 2006 & up, or very low mile vehicles, so, that's worth something. She'll have to make the monthly payments. I pulled a carfax, one owner, well maitained, no major issues. Rides nice, very clean. 81,000 miles. I didn't want to buy on the spur of the moment, but, with work, hers and mine, the kids, school, vacation less than a month away, & having to shell out $50.00 a day for the rental,I just went ahead and bit the bullet.

Now, here is what I am going to do. I am going to see the owner of the business that ruined my van. I am going to demand he pay for the $4000.00 down payment, not the full price of the van. I feel, because his shop (and, it is a big shop, with 4 or 5 other shops, thats been here for many years) ruined the van, caused me to have to buy another one, they are at least responsible for this much. If he declines (which, I'm betting he will) I will then sue, demanding a jury trial. If I lose, I will then hire someone to stand on neuteral ground, near the shop, with big signs, telling all prospectful customers what happened, take out ads in all the local papers, put magnetic signs on all my vehicles, go online staring a website against them, anything and everything within my legal right, to warn other people, and for some justice and satisfaction, yes, I know it will cost me, but it's the principal, plus, if I do have to sue, it will be for the total cost of the new van, plus the expense of my time wasted with them, and I spent ALOT of time dealing with them.

My question, am I expecting too much? Am I going about this in the proper manner? What would you do? Any and all feedback is welcome and appreciated. Thank you.

twentynine

Good Luck!

Sorry about the van.

Hopefully you get what you request.

Asking to muck, no as a customer myself no I don't think so.

It is going to be a big fight to get the 4k.

__________________
Cape Horn 17, Yamaha F115
with
Elmo the Boat Dog

NJFISH

American built car with 168,000 miles?? What did you expect?

Edit: Good luck though.

__________________
Jeff

farmerjane

HOPKINS ~ It's gonna be a long haul but it DOES sound like you may have a legitimate case. I think it would be worth it to submit everything you have documented to a lawyer to see if THEY think you have a good case and then proceed from there.

I can attest that Daddy'O and I have been in a similar boat as you and FORTUNATELY, for us, it turned out fairly well. Didn't have to actually sue the Ford people but we DID come to an agreeable understanding.

SIDE NOTE TO ANYONE READING THIS THREAD: whenever dealing with ANY type of service provider, always maintain a FIRM but "pleasant" demeanor. Allowing "emotions" to run rampant will not get you anywhere AND will be used against you in a court of law...if you know what I mean.

I wish you every bit of luck with this situation and keep us posted on what happens. BTW ~ DON'T take your vehicles back to that place to be worked on. ALWAYS take it to the dealer.

Hang in there!
FJ

__________________

I'm both lucky AND good ~

Ludicrous

You are why the automotive repair business SUCKS. You buy an old domestic POS with mega miles on it, dump 4.3 trillon dollars into the $1500.00 vehicle then blame repair shops that work on your POS for everything that goes wrong with it. Carfax...are you joking? You DO NOT know how to buy a used car. How about a 1-2 year old with low miles and have a reputable garage/bodyshop look at the damn thing before you buy it.



Good luck with this nonsense. And your 2004 with 81,000 miles on it. (BTW...go to Carfax download then read their disclaimer) If your "new" 2004 had a $13,000 collision repair it would not show up,Don't believe me...visit some bodyshops in your area. Better yet...print this thread out and show it to 5-10 local repair shops for an opinion. Take some running shoes because several shops may chase you out the door.

PostOpus

^^^^^^^^^

Bingo!

__________________
Ed


'96 Sea Pro 180CC - Yamaha 115
'06 Dodge 2500 MegaCab Diesel 4x4

Ludicrous

By the way...just looked up 04' Caravans with 81,000 miles on them. Average fair market price would be about $8500.00.

Well...my 2007 with 23,000 miles on it has plentyof problems, and not just little stuff...what I did not mention, is that, a few months before I bought the 2007, I bought a 2006 Expedition, was such a LEMON, and, I raised enough hell, they got me into the 2007 for no extra $$ and no loss of $$ on the other.
As far as buying a high milage POS...thats your poinion, but, I'm not the kind of guy that goes in for a tune up, and then the radio dosen't work and blames the shop/mechanic....if you get my drift. BUT, I do understand what you are saying, but, as an ex-mechanic, (unable to do much because of my back,etc) I know enough about cars, and how to keep them running, which is WHY I put $$ into things that DO fail. (what I mean, is, replacing stuff before get fails...maintenance)
If the motor, tranny & body is sound, like mine was, then, there is no reason to dump it because it's an older vehicle. New vehicles are a waste of money, the companies hardly back up any real problems, most of the stuff goes wrong when just out of warranty. As for spending money for a 2 or 3 year old auto, no, the way my wife trashes them, I refuse...it's killing me to even buy this one.
But....the shop DID screw this one up, there is no "coincidence"
The problem with the auto repair industry is lack of mechanics that are competent, and care & take pride in their work. I take my 2007 to the dealer of course. But, have had the dealer screw up MANY other vehicles because they SUCK also.
But, thank you for your opinion.

You are partially correct...I also checked the blue book, on this model, in my area, in excellent shape is $9,635.00....now, I know it isin't "excellent", but it's really clean, good maintenance history. I realize I'm paying a few hundres more than I could most likely get it for, but, I did get the 6 month powertrain warranty, had them swap my tires (nothing wrong with ones on it, great trad...but, mine were BRAND NEW) and, that cost $$...yes, I know how to buy a car, I am simply so pressed for time, I did what I don't normally do, and made a fast decision....my choice, I have to deal with it.
I'll tell you what, for the money that Expedition cost me, I could have shopped around, bought a USED older vehicle, put some $$ into it, and had LESS problems...I have always (until my back blew out) maintained all my own vehicles, I've NEVER been broken down roadside, and always bought , good, solid, used vehicles. My god, it's like buying a house with the cost of a new vehicle these days. I am not too proud to drive an older but nice vehicle...I have nothing I'm trying to "prove" to anyone. I don't judge a person by the car they drive.
As far as someone up there saying something like "an American car with 168,000 miles..." what did I expect...honestly, with this one, about 2000,000 miles. I have had several American cars go over 200,000 miles, and still run like a sewing machine. Alot of it is upkeep, maintenance, and, HOW it is driven.

Thanks!, FJ...long time, no see??
Yeah, I know it'll be tough...but, I also must go through with it, they can't screw up a car so bad that someone has to buy a new one, then just say "sorry". I will take your advice...after i speak with the shop owner. I have dealt with them for years, mostly, tires, brakes, stuff like that, but over the years have spent thousands of $$...i have taken friends there , sent them alot of work. They shouldn't treat me, or anyone for that matter, this way. I'll keep y'all posted....but, I suspect it'll be a while until I have anything to post.

hatterasman

on a old vehicle like that just changing the tire can cause shimmies and wobles due to so much rust between rotor to spindle and wheel to rotor. not getting wheel back in same spot will throw it off. simple misdiagnosis they went for bad axle 1st instead of inspecting differential. happens everyday in repair shops since they dont want to tell customer they have huge problems. they go for easy fix first. too many mechanics get in a rush and think a new part is a good part or even the right part.so sue napa. so axles need to be checked carefully. then you have a piece of shit chrysler minivan that if the motor mounts tranny mounts get out of alignment the cv joint on axle can come apart, stretch too far on a bump and get cocked, or pull out of trans. sue chrysler while you are sue happy.what we have here is a comedy of errors. and dealer really the big rip as usuall. they just didnt want to get involved fixing it so they pysched you into buying another sue them too. tranny shop puts in axle stabilzer/seal kit on outside instead of you doing proper repair . diff probably needed bearings common on chryslers with mileage. thought you were the prevent maint guy ??? sue yourself tooo

autobaun70

I do have to ask, why on earth are you so obsessed with changing stuff that isn't broke? Maintenance is one thing, but having a shop pull unnecessary crap just for the sake of it is just asking for trouble. Something about this hole post just screams pain in the arse urbanite to me.

Not completely judging you here, but to a certain degree I am. I work at a large rental equipment company, mainly carry heavy construction equipment, but do have some homeowner stuff. We bail every time we see a mini van of any sort (or overly clean SUV) pull up at the store, last guy to see it get's stuck with that customer, because 9 times out of ten it is a dumbass that thinks they know that they are doing, are too ignorant to slow down for ten minutes to get some honest direction, and are too cheap to actually follow the advice of those folks that handle the stuff that they are wanting to use for a living. Beyond that, they are the first to call and bitch because they are to dumb to figure out how to choke a chain saw and act as though it is your fault. Not the same thing I know, but do keep in mind, you had a 14 year old vehicle that was a POS design to start with (when it was new it was JUNK), and should deal with it as such.

Snapper Head

I stopped reading at the point where you gleefully admit to liking and driving a minivan every day. Homo.


Big Al

__________________
"Pedophiles must die" - Ted Nugent

11andy11

Take the guy to small claims court. The most you would probably be able to sue for would be the value of the vehicle which is not very much. Theres no way you are going to get $4000 out of the guy.

Boy...some real smart arses here...not, you, in particular.
The stuff I change that isin't broke, is stuff that normally will fail, many times without warning at 100,000 miles and beyond...alot of times even prior to that, on ANY vehicle. I got out of the mechanic bussiness many, many, years ago, but, saw and repaired my share of parts that commonly cause break downs after a certain point. I don't like to be broken down, and, never have.
To me, it's preventative maintenance, most people wait until it fails...which, is fine. I can afford a new vehicle, and currntly own one, and it has had more problems in the year + I've had it, than my, as so many here call it, POS minivan. Until the axle issue, there was no issue.
I understand what you are saying in your reply, but, whether you believe it or not, I do not fall into that catagory. I am the same way with all my mechanical stuff, problem parts, that are known to fail after a certain amount of miles/years, I simply replace, if the part I replace was still functioning normally, I save it as a back-up. Yeah, maybe I'm a bit OCD...but, at least I feel secure with my mechanical stuff...sure, anything can go wrong at any time...but, I like to keep things in my favor.

Well, then, guess I'm gay.
I now drive a 2007 Ford Expedition EL Eddie Bauer....does that make me not a "Homo" anymore?

Asshole.

Snapper Head

No sir, you stated that you not only drive the minivan, but you enjoy it.

The Expediton would indeed cleanse you, but only if you stay out of the minivan.

Relax, its not like having a tooth pulled.


Big Al
yes, I am an asshole

__________________
"Pedophiles must die" - Ted Nugent

Whew, I wasn't even going to attempt to reply to your post...thought about suing you, though...for being a know-it-all that knows nothing, but, I'll give it a spin:
The vehicle had NO RUST anywhere, period.
The axle DID have a torn inner boot, so, it was in need of repair/replacement.
Since there was no issue BEFORE changing the axle, the differential shouldn't suddenly go bad when they changed it, there would have been other signs if the diff.was bad. Why would I sue NAPA for the mechanic not inspecting/matching the old axle with the replacement axle? POS Chrysler minivan, your opinion, but, it was a fine POS until this incedent...you are correct, if the mounts are misalligned, it can cause this problem, which I went over with all parties involved...it was the job of the mechanic installing the new mounts to do it correctly, the customer should not have to deal with any of that...or should they? Sue happy...no, thats the LAST thing I want to do, a last resort, I want them to compensate me for the damage they caused which pretty much forced me into purchasing another vehicle. Yes, you may be correct about the dealer attempting to "pysch" me out...but, how many dealers/shops was I to keep taking it to? How long should I have kept renting a vehicle? In reality, I can't blame the dealer for not wanting to get involved, or teying to sell me a vehicle...thats what dealers do, we all know that. I simply was out of time and had to get her into a decent vehicle. As far as me being "the preventative maintenance guy" I am...but, had there been ANY indication that the tranny/diff was bad, or going bad, I would have NEVER put another penny into the vehicle, that would have been irrational. Like I said before, it NEVER leaked a drop of fluid, never had any issues to indicate any serious problems. Whatever, you have to know the vehicle before you make snap statements such as you did, I have had enough vehicles, I know when and when not to invest $$ to maintain one. And, just because one has low miles dosen't mean it's any good, there are alot more high milage vehicles I would trust over many lower milage vehicles...but, hey, you are the know-it-all, right.

**So am I.... **

Eyeball

B I N G O !!! We have a winner!!!

And it is not just limited to the auto repair sector. The 'I don't give a sh!t, it's just a job' attitude has infiltrated everywhere. Prob invented by Al Gore.