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Looking for some good advice and contractor to reapir or replace my gas pack. Supposely it is on its last legs. It is 12 years old. I heard a combustion boom last night. Had a service guy come out and he said the heat excahger is rusted and getting ready to crack. He aslo siad my intake duct is too small. Now they want to do a sit down consultaion. All I want is it fixed or replaced at a reasonable cost.
Is 12 years about the point I should replace?
Should I go back with the same thing or heat pump?
Any advice on a good second opinion or any commnets?
I hate to say it but HVAC business is a out right license to rob people.....My a/c unit was quoted out to be replaced at 4800, same unit I got for 1200 and installed it myself in less than an hour.....
A buddy of mine last year replaced 6 units in one day and pocketed 7 grand....
I know a guy's got to make a buck but geese....
2 of these at each end of your house will cost you about 800 bucks installed, and heat about 3000 square feet. Vent free, just run a gas line to each of them. And they have a ten year warranty if installed by the dealer.
Rinnai Silent Servant RCE-606A Vent Free Heater
Find them on Ebay or a reputable gas appliance store
Did my own as well saved about 2 grand. Ordered off the net.
I'm pretty good with tools and have a little experence with refrigeration/AC from (many) years back. Did the outside condenser and air handler on the heat pump. Took the units to the scrap yard and got money back as well. They liked my copper/aluminum, condensor coil most!
Went up a half ton and to a soft start variable speed handler that got my SEER up and really knocked a good hole in the power bill. (probably 20% or better) Also went through all the duct work and re-taped joints and used mastic over the tape. Found a couple of holes in the old tape joints during the process.
Had to have a sheetmetal shop make new adapters for the air handler inlet and outlet. Took them drawings and picked them up the next day..not expensive.
Unless you have a leaky house or live at high elevations, I'd go the heatpump with emergency strips if you are in NC. The new air handlers help with that extended cold blast you used to get on start up when heating with a heatpump
__________________ Dog Tired
I'm for a government that is by the people and for the people!
I hate to say it, but there is some bad advice given to you on here! 1)12 years on a standard non-stainless hx is 2 yrs past average life span. 2) A quality contractor will sit down and consult with the homeowner to discuss options and educate the homeowner, not to rip them off. 3) Your duct work and all may need replacing! You cannot achieve the efficiencies without a properly engineered, and properly installed duct system. 4) A load calculation should be performed. Demand it or get another contrator. Some may feel this is a way of getting extra money, but in fact, you're wasting money if the system is not designed correctly or installed correctly!
Yes, there are some companies that are sub par and they give the quality guys a bad name! A good quality job will cost, just like anything that is of quality.
BTW, I recommend a high efficiency HP for this area. I've been in the HVAC/R industry for over 20 yrs and hold a mechanical contactors license even though I'm not in the contracting business.
Also, I recommend you contact the BB office and also the local inspections department for whom they recommend. Feel free to contact me with questions.
I really shouldn't respond to this, but when I read what Weekend-Hooker said, I say BS. Did you do a heat loss/gain? What did you do with the refrigerant? (Up to a $20,000 fine if you vented it). Did you properly test the system (takes a trained professional with the right tools and equipment about an hour). What do you do if something doesn't work? Manufacturer doesn't have to warranty anything that wasn't installed to specs, including correct duct sizing.
I can see where a packaged unit can be removed, properly disposed of and an EXACT match be installed in a few hours. I think Weekend-Hooker needs to look at the time it took to find, order, pick up, remove, install (including wiring), warranty, etc before he says the job takes an hour and that the business is a license "to rob people". A couple of 2AM warranty emergency service calls might change your tune.
I had a fairly successful HVAC business for over 30 years and I made enough to pay the bills, lived in a modest house and could afford a used skiff when I retired due to health problems.
BTW, I'd like to see the invoice for a new mid-size (3 ton), 13 SEER (minimum federal standard), gas pack for $1200. $4800 seems to be high, but $1200 and 1 hour, BS!
chilipenquin, if you want some advice, PM me. I won't argue this any further.
__________________ "If Heaven ain't a lot like Dixie, I don't want to go"
2 of these at each end of your house will cost you about 800 bucks installed, and heat about 3000 square feet. Vent free, just run a gas line to each of them. And they have a ten year warranty if installed by the dealer.
Rinnai Silent Servant RCE-606A Vent Free Heater
Find them on Ebay or a reputable gas appliance store
Vent Tree is illegal in a bedroom unless you leave the window open. It's your life, think about it. "Just run a gas line", most people don't have the tools to do it to code or enough insurance to cover you (assuming the insurance will cover something done illegally). Y'All are watching the DYI channel too much and it's going to get someone killed! Every time I watch one of those shows, I end up either laughing at the TV or screaming at it.
__________________ "If Heaven ain't a lot like Dixie, I don't want to go"
Didn't mean to twist up any body's pants....But just my experance....My unit was a 2 ton. And yes you better be sized correctly, return sizes and discharge ect...I'm not a licensed contractor nor do I wish to be one, I do have a valid refrigeration license and understand the business very well. But like I said before there's guys out there that will rip you off....I did mine myself contrary to Dave's belief it took me 1 hour to change out my a/c unit outside. But I'm relatively mechanically inclined also and normally do my own repairs if I can....If I had a 2am service call I'm sure it doesn't come free with my purchase of the unit.....And yes I have the proper tools and equipment to do the job and it took me an hour.....may have spent several hours looking for the unit and picking it up...but this isn't what I do for a living....but still whats better......a slow dime or two fast nickles???
I did mine myself contrary to Dave's belief it took me 1 hour to change out my a/c unit outside.
You didn't evacuate the system to 250 microns and hold below 500 for the specified time. When did you do this replacement? If within the last few years did you try to match a new 13 seer to an old 10 seer or less a/h? Not all hvac companies purpose in life is to rip people off. What do you do for a living and how much do you earn per hour? Replacing the outdoor unit only is not done anymore, it just won't match the existing system properly. A simple split system changeout can be done by one person in about 6 hours, a package unit by 2 people in 3-4 hours. The "gross" profit of a few thousand dollars has many places to go other than lining the owners pockets. There's the $50k-$100k stocked van, insurance, licenses, yearly training, taxes, social security, 401k, paid vacation, advertising, etc., etc., etc. What about the various days in March, April, October, and November when there is no work? I think I will call up my mortgage company, the bank, cablevision, AT&T, and city water and tell them not to bill me for those days since I didn't make a penny. I wonder if I could get the grocery store to deliver some free groceries on those days too?
Didn't mean to twist up any body's pants....But just my experance....My unit was a 2 ton.
You didn't "twist" my pants, but you did say "but HVAC business is a out right license to rob people". I suppose you also think every licensed plumber, electrician and other getting rich tradesman are also thieves.
You are giving bad advice to people that have no business changing their system themselves and you're also calling hard working, honest people thieves, I take exception to that.
I'll tell you what, do you think you can replace chilipenquin's unit for $1200? If so, why don't you PM him your phone number and start a time clock from the minute you start talking and see how long it takes in total to replace a unit. Again, $4,800 seems high, but $1200 and 1Hr is BS.
__________________ "If Heaven ain't a lot like Dixie, I don't want to go"
I would say 15 years is average and that depends on where you live( close to the ocean, maybe 10). If the heat exchanger is damaged you would be better off replacing the unit. Just my .02
You didn't evacuate the system to 250 microns and hold below 500 for the specified time. When did you do this replacement? If within the last few years did you try to match a new 13 seer to an old 10 seer or less a/h? Not all hvac companies purpose in life is to rip people off. What do you do for a living and how much do you earn per hour? Replacing the outdoor unit only is not done anymore, it just won't match the existing system properly. A simple split system changeout can be done by one person in about 6 hours, a package unit by 2 people in 3-4 hours. The "gross" profit of a few thousand dollars has many places to go other than lining the owners pockets. There's the $50k-$100k stocked van, insurance, licenses, yearly training, taxes, social security, 401k, paid vacation, advertising, etc., etc., etc. What about the various days in March, April, October, and November when there is no work? I think I will call up my mortgage company, the bank, cablevision, AT&T, and city water and tell them not to bill me for those days since I didn't make a penny. I wonder if I could get the grocery store to deliver some free groceries on those days too?
Baypro I know maybe I could have reworded my statement different based on my experience, I'm a field Engineer...not hourley..And you say that replacing just the outdoor unit isn't done anymore??? See that to me would automatically make me wonder..because my last quote was just the outside unit....I shouldn't have to hold the burden of you're stocked van, you're ss, 401k, paid vacation..ect thats part of you're overhead I understand, also when work is slow is it my fault as the consumor....should I pay you more to change my unit because you have 10 employees or pay Jo the Plumber less because he only has two employees??? Thats a choice you make when becoming an employer, but to pass off on me this is why HVAC pricing is what it is....aint all my fault why would want me to pay so much more......Just like you're Signature says...."poor planning on your part does not necessitate an emergency on mine"
Oh gross profit of a few thousand dollars????on a unit way less than 2K???, see most and see I said most of the time in many industries you can double the cost of materials and that what it it cost for materials and installation...Whay would it be so different ...other that what I stated earlier....You expect you're customers to absorb you're slow times??
Quote:
Originally Posted by davedowneast
You didn't "twist" my pants, but you did say "but HVAC business is a out right license to rob people". I suppose you also think every licensed plumber, electrician and other getting rich tradesman are also thieves.
You are giving bad advice to people that have no business changing their system themselves and you're also calling hard working, honest people thieves, I take exception to that.
I'll tell you what, do you think you can replace chilipenquin's unit for $1200? If so, why don't you PM him your phone number and start a time clock from the minute you start talking and see how long it takes in total to replace a unit. Again, $4,800 seems high, but $1200 and 1Hr is BS.
No Dave, the theory behind my comment was based on my experiences, but now that you mentioned it, the HVAC trade is one of the only trades in which I cant go to a supply house and buy any piece or part without being a licensed contracter....wonder why is that? Meaning I would have to pay a HVAC contractor to do the service call ect....but on the other hand I can go buy a breaker or wax seal or any other piece of electrical or plumbing equipment without holding a plumbing license or electrical license....and make my repair ect...but not on a HVAC unit...cant even go buy a cooling fan motor, board, capacitor, starter from a supply house unless you're a licensed HVAC contractor.
Suppose you had to be an ASC certified mechanic to buy anything from Advance auto....The automotive repair business would look allot diffrent...think of how many poor souls are out there trying to put a set of break shoes on and don't know how and may be putting our family at risk if they don't work...but the average Jo cant but a fan motor from the Hvac supply house...you feel me....? Sorry If I ticked anyone off didn't mean too.
Last edited by Weekend-Hooker; 12-15-2009 at 11:37 AM.
You expect you're customers to absorb you're slow times??
Absolutely. They absorb my mortgage, my son's college tuition, my retirement fund, my 2nd home, my stocked van, my $19,200.00 per year advertising, my trophy wife expense, etc., etc., etc. I can safely say my customers absorb every single expense I have. They even cover my losses (should I incur any) during my home poker games. If they ever stop covering those expenses I guess I will start looking to work for someone else.
I have no more to say. We have differant points of view. We should agree to disagree. I love fishing and boating, how about you?
Just a couple of points and I too will get of this subject.
Other than refrigerant, you can buy whatever you want. If Wal-Mart or Lowes thought there was a profit in stocking HVAC repair parts, believe me, they would. Wholesale contractor supply houses are just that and they (for the most part) sell to licensed contractors.
You made a broad statement about "a license to rob". I'd suggest you get 3 estimates. As I stated, I'm retired but I still do the occasional service call for someone in need. A year or two ago, I did a replacement of a split system 2 ton heat pump. The job included indoor unit with ductwork adaptors, outdoor unit with a new disconnect, new whip and a 3' raised platform, new refrigerant lines. It also included a new filter grill and 8 adjustable vein supply registers. The price for the job was $3200. I also did a similar one in Knightdale for ($3500)?. I replaced an outdoor 3 ton 13 SEER unit for $1500, the system was only a couple of years old so I was able to use the other existing components. I gave a price of $2500 for a 3 ton packaged unit to a neighbor, but he ended up trading a boat to a licensed contractor for the job. Like I said, maybe you should have gotten more than one price or maybe the contractors in your area are thieves. Or maybe they are giving you a "special" price.
During all this, we haven't answered the original questions. 12 years doesn't seem like very long and I would expect a gas pack in Raleigh to last longer. Having said that, there's some cheap crap out there (you can find it on the internet) and maybe that's all you're going to get. To make an informed decision as to what to do next, one would need more info. Is the gas LP or natural? How big is the house? How much did it cost you last year to heat the house. Another consideration is, if you change to a heat pump, you might need to do an electrical upgrade. The "consultation" is to give you information and to try to sell you a new system. Unless you really know and trust your company, get more info/estimates.
__________________ "If Heaven ain't a lot like Dixie, I don't want to go"
It's pretty simple if you know what you are doing. And you don't need any liscence if you are working to replace stuff you already own.
I had a quote frome Home Depot (they came to my house) for over $6,000. I did it by myself for under $2700.00.
Not saying it was easy, but it's better than what was originally installed and saves energy also.
Right some of you are!!! My opinion is that people in the home HVAC industry are largely crooks!
Friend of mine in a high end house had them under a "maintenance contract" His unit knocked off. They tell him he had three leaks and his compressor was shot. They soaked him for about 10 grand for likely the cost of a control component (had a decent tech been on site). Crooks!!!!!! No such a thing as three leaks and a shot compressor at one time! No such thing!
Just based on the three estimates I was given.
__________________ Dog Tired
I'm for a government that is by the people and for the people!
Gas Pack Repair/Replace 
All I want is it fixed or replaced at a reasonable cost.
