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Sorry browndog, I misunderstood your post. Sounds like you did follow the book. I tend to agree with some of the other posts concerning the process the mechanic went through. The odds of blowing multiple powerheads on any non-dfi motor that quickly and close together raise questions about the boat and/or motor setup.
As for your desire to get a new motor, I understand it but doubt it will happen. It is fairly standard for the manuf. to just repair the current motor. Personally given the quickness of the blowups, I am starting to wonder if M-Keith is right. It might not be the motor at all that is the problem.
Mako MAdness, browndog is legit. He is a regular on another board and came here to get more input on his problem. Show some respect for newcommers. The other board is not a technical as this board tend to be. I belive he may have the Yamaha rep mixed up with the Yamaha mechanic. I don't think Yamaha would of sent out a powerhead to a non certified mechinac in the 1st place much less 2 of them. I say they are giving him a undressed block and reusing all the componets. There must be a fuel injector bad or a computer problem somehwere. I would ask for a dressed powerhead at the least and should get a whole new engine if Yamaha is a good as everyone claims they are. It should take no more then 2 week to get back up and anylonger is a stall on someones part. They have the parts and blocks in stock in the US. I would also request the Yamaha rep look at theis engine b4 the next move is made.
Hawk, you must admit the profile fit as someone who is bashing under another profile that's all. I thought MAD DOG was back. The one from the sws fourm who bashed Yams and loved the fichts to the end of the company when he lost his job to a Canadian.
Browndog, A "new" powerhead is a "new" motor.
Sorry if I offended you.
Mako Madness, a new powerhead may not be a new motor. If they sent a dressed powerhead then yes but 99 time out of a 100 they send a underssed powerhead and reuse all the componets off the old one even engines 2 years old. You doupt browndogs claims and now all your statements like the last one, make me doupt your experience with engines and mechinical systems. I have been on this board from the star also but that don't mean squat as there are lot of board with lots of good people giving good advice. Here is a link to the board browndog 1st posted the problem on. By the way it is a good board for fishing info for the MD/Va area with as many active members from those 2 states as this board covering the whole nation.
Sorry MM. We are posting at the same time. I usally like to give newcommer the benifit of the doupt. Its a respect thing. If they are imposters it will become evident in short order. He was advised to come here from that other board. You can't judge a book by its cover.
M-keith is on the right track. A melted piston is indicative of a lean condition. Your blow-ups may be caused by a fuel system prob. I would explore this and bring it up to the mechanic...
I'm reading this thread with interest, not beccause I have much to offer but because I like to avoid stuff like this myself. (Not that I will *ever* be able to afford a big horsepower factory-new motor, you understand, or that my wife would ever allow such a thing.)
I'm trying to understand what you mean when you say the mechanic replaced the powerhead. It was my understanding that this is tantamount to getting a new motor... like, the powerhead is the business end, and all that is left aside from that is the lower unit and the casing. Am I wrong? Maybe by "powerhead" you mean the equivalent of what auto mechanics call a short block?
Can someone clarify for this iggorant yankee, please?
Oh, never mind, I get it. I missed a few posts there. So there are "dressed" powerheads and "undressed" ones. I hope the undressed ones use plenty of sunscreen.
browndog, I do my boating on the Wicomico in the summer and have friends in La Plata. Hope the tornado didn't get you. Having a blown motor after getting your house knocked down would just be too much.
By the way, is this dealer you're going to on the corner of 301 and 257? I get stuff from them sometimes and I believe they sell Yami there.
One thing I forgot to mention. If you haven't done so already, I would specifically order that NO work is to be done on your motor until the Yamaha rep gets a chance to look at it. You mentioned in the first paragraph of your original post that the dealer intends to have the motor rebuilt before the Yamaha rep shows up. On the surface, this sounds like a blantant attempt on the part of the dealer to cover their a$$. They probably know that the Yamaha rep will take one look at the motor & ask why the hell the lean running condition was not diagnosed & corrected before a new powerhead was installed. This is very important because if the Yamaha rep is able to prove that a botched repair job caused the repeated failures, it will probably be the dealer, rather than Yamaha, that gets stuck with the bill. If the dealer fights you on this, I'd seriously consider taking it to another dealer.
The entire fuel system needs to be looked at. I don't think it is a fuel injector failure because a different piston melted each time the motor failed. If the same piston had melted during each failure, it would clearly make the injector for that piston suspect. Low battery voltage can cause an ECU to send bad readings. It can also permanantly damage an ECU. Small amounts of debris somewhere in the fuel system could be clogging injectors at random. It could be a lot of things, but it will be difficult to find out exactly what it is if the dealer is allowed to cover the problem.
This is the king of information that helps me out. Thanks you I appeciate it. The dealer said that they would start to repair the engine so that the Yamaha mechanic could look at the engine and make sure everything was working correctly. I ask the dealer if the Yamaha mechanic came out to look at the motor now while it is not working could he tell what the problem is with the motor.
The dealer said the Yamaha mechanic could not test the motor or diagnose the problem because the engine could not be started.
I thought this was a cover up by the dealer but was not certain.
I am going to call yamaha and the dealer and insist that no work is to be perfored on the engine until the Yamaha mechanic can come out and inspect the engine.
Its unlikely an injector as Kieth pointed out - 2 different pistons failed.
It's also unlikely low voltage as it's a new boat with presumably a new battery And once started this OB's making it's own voltage, not relying on some flat battery.
If it's a computer controlled thing then POSSIBLY some sender unit that monitors engine temp. and fuel burn is faulty, and telling the puter that it's too rich, so the ecu leans out the mixture more and more until a piston melts.
It must get awful hot to do this...meaning that some other "sender unit" for overheat also isn't working right.
I thought these computer controlled ecu's stored all the data from new and it could be downloaded for diagnosis purposes?
However - if the sender is sending the wrong data to be recorded (in the same way the engine monitoring data is corrupt and causing the leaning out problem) - the data may be meaningless?.
I'd be insisting as others have said, on having the Yam rep diagnose the fault as it sounds to me like one of the peripheral units attached to the motor is faulty, and the same faulty part is being swapped to the new block each time and repeating the condition that causes the melt down.
Could the heat sensor be connected to where the mixture sensor goes and vice versa for the fuel burn sensor?
Sorta like the woman driver, who gets caught for speeding and says..
"but officer, I mistook the speedometer for the clock - the faster I went the later I was getting!" [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
Just an observation.
Isn't it funny that this is just the same sorta hpdi problem that sunk ficht?
Isn't it also funny that Yam uses the german HPDI fuel metering injection system, while Merc uses the Ozzie "Sarich orbital" low pressure electronic metering injection system, and doesn't seem to suffer the same problem?
Either way - this is not something a grease monkey with a wrench is going to easily diagnose - this is a specialist area requiring the techs to diagnose before a third power head goes the same way!
Mako,
I suggested Browndog post his question over here after I saw the thread on tidalfish/chesapeake angler board.I am a new member myself here and after noticing yesterday that you guys had a yamaha technician on the board I thought it would be appropriate for him to address "Yamtech" for a qualified 2nd opinion. The guy is having real problems,getting yanked around, and could really use the help. I have always heard good about yammies(around here anyways) and such a problem suprised me, figured you guys could help.
On Yamaha's website I looked up outboard service in the location where my dealer is located. Their website listed my dealership, so I am going to call Yamaha and ask them if what qualifications the mechanic has to have to install/repair Yamaha outboards.
I will let you know what happens. Thanks for everyone helping me out with this situation.
BD,who are you refering to as the Yamaha mechanic? The Yamaha machanic is the wrench turner at the dealer. The Guy you want to look at the engine is the Yamaha Rep. He to is a Yamaha machanic also of a higher degree and can make calls for warrenty work,replacement engines, ect. You are confussing people with your statements making it sound like the dealers mechinac is not a yamaha mechanic. He must be if Yamaha has sent him 2 powerheads. Yamaha doesnt send just anybody a powerhead.
m-keith is right about the O2 failure mode. If you have a fuel management gauge, you can see the consumption skyrocket when the sensor fails, evidencing a very rich mixture. And that would not melt a piston.
Yamaha is going to send out a Rep to install the powerhead and troubleshoot the problem. The local dealer will not do any work until the Yamaha Rep show up to install and troubleshoot the motor. The Rep will also test and breakin the motor with me and sea trial the boat.
I had to esculate to a manage at the Yamaha Customer support but I got what I wanted. The manage od Yamaha Customer support said the Yamaha Rep will not leave until he has found the problem and the rep will give me a detail review of the problem. Yamaha's Customer Support Manage said the Yamaha Rep will not leave until he find and fixes the problem. We will see what happens.
Okay lets see low voltage from the battery, yet did any indicator show that while running your charge system was not putting out its 14 volts. The Yamaha speedo will show you if your engine is charging or not. Secondly since you have an EFI setup, and the voltage was low, your engine would probably shut down. Yamaha EFI's require somewhere around 11.5 volts to run. Your dealer, is giving you a BS story. I don't agreee on the O2 sensor going bad, the engine will still run, and the map will keep the mixture in range. They just don't run up to par. Since you already contacted Yamaha and they are going to work this problem, I think you are okay. Wouldn't surprise me the dealer rebuilt was not done correctly. Are you sure the piston was burned or did the rod bearing let go and the piston destroyed itself, or did the wrist pin let go and the piston destroyed itself. Not knowing what the dealer did to repair the first incident, I guess I shouldn't speculate on the failure. As far as an injector getting clogged from debris, kinda doubt it since there is a fule filter prior to the vapor canister, and I bet you have an outboard fuel water seperator
[This message was edited by KevinM on June 13, 2002 at 02:29 PM.]
That sounds great browndog. Good to know Yammie is stepping up and taking care of things. Once you got by the dealer, things seemed to move pretty quick. Keep us informed on the final resolution.
brown dog
boy you got a lot af responce in a short time.
first thing first I need to know if your engine is A 2.6 or a 3.1 is it standard or left hand rotation.I would also like to know if the shop that did the repair is what yamaha calls prepaired performance dealer or A full dealer.
the prepaired performance dealer dosn't have to have any factory trained techs.your best best bet
is to look for a shop that has A five star certified tech then ask to see the certificate don't just take his word for it.then I would like to know if you were given A new block or A hydrotech rebuild.I would tell the service manager
that since you bought A new engine not A rebuilt one that you want a new power head not A rebuild.
You are not likely to get A whole new engine out of them but if you call yamaha cust service
1 800 962 7926 ask them for the name and location of their key dealer in your area "key dealers are often used to take care of special problems" when you call be nice to lisa she is A nice lady and she will help.if I were you I would write down everything you can remember so you are orginized when you call if you play your cards correctly you will most likely not only get your engine repaird correctly but get an aditional year of warranty for your trouble when you call remember that they are boat people just like you.if you give me more info on what engine you have I will try to give you some guidence on what went wrong with it.I can tell you AT THIS time that the O2 sensor did not cause it to blow up.the o2 sensor is used to trim the fuel injection pulce width duration how much affect it has depends on what engine you have.
