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Thinking of a major project. It all started with an old, TOTALLY stripped 25'bertram hull I came across. Finally came to conclusion that I couldnt ever replace EVERYTHING that was gone in a cost effective way, even if I got the hull for $500 (guy wanted 2000, I told him he was crazy). I just need a better starting point.
What about other vintage boats, Allmand, Formula, etc. of the open fisherman stye. WHat are other reputable, deepvee hulls worh a restoration, that would make good offshore boat, and dont have the price an old Bertram will have. Not really interested in twin outboards style, I would do twin I/o's though, or straight inboard.
a 23 seacraft would be a good candidate,has tremendous following and is a heck of a boat,came with single and twin i/o and outboard(s) , so your options are open.Problem with finding and rebuilding a legendary hull is usualy someone has beat you to it.Its not often you see old bertrams,seacrafts,blackfins,formulas etc.. that are cheap.Usualy the owner knows the following and tries to take advantage of it (what the market demands) even if there real junk, but with patience theres always a jewel to be had. good luck.
ps: I purchased a 31 bertram which I havnt started restoring yet,I got it for cheap money so they are definately out there .
The 31 Bert is a beautiful hull. I would love to redo a 31 or a 28. Would be perfect for me out here in the midwest and the great lakes. Some day soon I will begin my search! Good luck with yours!
From the sound of your post "I need a better starting point" it seems that you want something that is useable but needs some TLC??
Some things to consider with a true “project boat”…… you cant go into it thinking your going to come out ahead of the game …. chances are you will not. Depending on how “polished” you want the end product will drive the cost. Full Restorations, as I'm sure your aware, can run into some serious money to the point it would have been more cost effective to buy new…. again depending on how far you want to go with the restore. Typically restores happen as a model is discontinued or when quality leaves much to be desired with manufactures changing hands etc… Case in point are some of the manufacturers listed above people want old Bertrams and old SeaCrafts. Recently I saw a 23 SeaCraft that the owner had dumped $45,000 into and still had the old engine hanging off the back (transom closure and bracket addition were two major pieces of the project). Mind you this boat was professionally done and it showed as the work was flawless. Another one was a complete restore of a 35 Bertram that went well above the cost of Bertrams 36 footer….The thing was the owner wanted the 35 foot hull and wanted it done his way (the boat is truly unbelievable !!! one of a kind). Then there is always the Classic Bertram 31. The desirable thing is that in the end you have a custom boat ....whether your decide to restore to original shape or change things to fit your needs is up to you. Alot depends on the work that you will perform vs. what a boat yard would do ( but remember your time still counts toward the final cost of your project) . As for the Bertram you speak of.....I dont know the shape that it was in or what needed to be done to it but typically in a full restore you would strip it down to bare bones then rebuild it from the hull up. A lot depends on how much you want it and how far you can take it…..far too many projects end up getting sold or worse yet abandoned midway through the restoration due to misconceptions of what it will take to get the boat to a usable form.
I hope this helps and again I don’t know the shape of the Bertram but as long as the hull isnt split down the middle .... that doesn’t sound unrealistic for that hull… [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
I am in somewhat of the same boat as you. I am looking for a 23(ish) foot hull to redo as a project. It seems that i have missed some good oportunities by not having cash on hand when a goodf deal has been around. My next step is to make sure that I have my full hull budget on hand so that I can take advantage of any good deals I see.
I have missed out on a 23' Formula for under 1k and a 24' Blackfin ~1k by not being ready to move.
Good luck and keep your eyes open.
BTW note to all PLEASE add a location to your profile it will really be helpful in giving advice as much of it is regional.
The 23' Formula is a real good candidate for a restoration. The I/O can be removed and an OB hung on the back. Priced right.
Seacrafts are nice, but the older ones seem to command big bucks, regardless of condition.
Mako made a 26/27 footer (I forget which) center console cutty with twin inboards and a tower in the mid 1970's. Nice boat if you can find one. So's the 26 Dusky with twin inboards. Has a big beam.
Albemarles if you can find them reasonably priced, but again, you're dealing with an I/O (sorry, I don't like 'em, never will).
Blackfins are real nice (I have a 24 with twin diesel I/B), but you have to shop around to find one priced right. Nice ride.
Egg Harbor made a 33' sportfish in the early 1970's that was a glass hull, but had some wood in the superstructure. They're nice boats in my opinion and can be had for a reasonable price.
Concorde made a 33' Sportfisherman in the late 1960's and has a huge cockpit.
Chris Craft 27' is a nice boat.
Uniflite made a nice FB boat and the Salty Pup they made was decent.
Pacemaker made a 26' Wahoo that was a nice boat if powered right. Find one with twins if you can.
Sams
Good point about your location. Down south the services are much more INEXPENSIVE as compared to the northeast....from fiberglass work to painting to fabrication of tops and fuel tanks. The same goes for the cost of the boat...seems that the better deals are further south. As I mentioned above about the 23 SeaCraft restore…I’m certain that could have been done down south for a lot less……. a lot less!!!! But that boat was incredible ….. truly looked like it was just popped out of the mold ….oh yeah it was a 75 hull that had seen the bottom once!!!!
robalocc/Satbuilder
Good points about the cost factor.....as supply and demand can really be seen with the boats mentioned here. Some of these hulls are in terrible shape yet demand top dollar ... and they usually get it......If one person says no way there is always someone willing to pay the premium…even if the transom is falling off and the stringers are shot. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]
mbb
As far as what to go after…I have a biased opinion so I’ll keep that to myself…but any of the boats mentioned in this post would make great restores. One other thing as I kind of eluded to in my other post …while at times a project can get frustrating the reward of the end product far outweighs the challenges you’ll face… [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
I got an old 24' topaz as my project boat...had to shop around for 2 years before finding what I wanted. I bought one in 'running condition' with the plan to do a little every winter. However, with all the problems associated the first year of running I decided to bite the bullet and go ahead and tear it down...
biggest problems were Electrical and fuel tank related....
Biggests costs to consider are engine, paint/fiberglass work, trailer, in that order - I got about $10k wrapped up in rebuilding engine, new alumimum dual axle trailer, and all the paint fiberglass work. I did alot of this myself (all of engine and some of paint/fiberglass) and got by a lot cheaper than most could.
Good luck and keep us posted...I love to see others projects....
HA MBB
I JUST COMPLETED A 1977 23 SEACRAFT THIS IS A GREAT BOAT AND YOU WOULD BE HAPPY WITH IT WHEN YOU GET DONE. BUT IF YOU ARE LOOKING TO SAVE MONEY BY COMPLETELY RE DOING A PROJECT BOAT FORGET IT. THIS IS A LABOR OR LOVE BECAUSE YOU WANT TO KEEP THE BOAT AND DON’T MIND SPENDING THE TIME AND $$$. I RE DID THE GAS TANK, DECK, CAP, TRANSOM, PAINT, NEW MOTOR, NEW TRAILER, NEW ELECTRONICS, NEW T-TOP, LEANING POST AND ON AND ON AND ON. THE BOTTOM LINE IS THIS 150 DAYS OF WORK (HARD WORK) PLUS $33,000 AND THAT’S ME DOING THE WORK. I COULD HAVE BOUGHT A 10 YR BOAT FOR $15-20 AND BEEN IN THE WATER THAT WEEK. BUT THERE IS SOMETHING TO BE SAID ABOUT DOING A PROJECT BOAT. SAVING MONEY IS NOT ONE OF THOSE THINGS. I JUST HAD A SURVEY DONE FOR INSURANCE PURPOSES THE GUY SAID YOU HAVE A NEW BOAT HERE I SAID THAT’S WRIGHT. IT LOOKS GREAT AND I AM GLAD I DID IT. I GUESS IT IS LIKE KIDS I WOULDN’T GET RID OF MINE FOR NO AMOUNT OF MONEY NOR WOULD I TAKE YOURS FOR ANY AMOUNT YOU OFFERED TO GIVE ME.
FELLOW-SHIP
mbb, that 25 Bert might not be the worst of deals, but if I were going for a major project you just can't beat a 28 Bert. Get a solid hull, repower, new electronics, etc., a go anywhere boat that gives you about the best "return on investment" of anything out there. I'll be trading up from my 25 Grady in the next couple years.
Cobia built Robalo. The first thing to understand is that you'll never get your money out of a major restoration if you don't do a lot of the work yourself. You might not then. If your going to keep the boat, resale value isn't an issue. If you're going to want to sell it two to three years down the road, resale value is an issue.
Hawkeye on this board would be a good one to discuss this with. He has reworked a 70's vintage Formula 23' that belonged to Bob Dunk. Hawkeye recently made the statement that in hindsight, he probably wouldn't do it again.
I have a friend that restored 10-15 Bertram 31's in the 80's. He made a little money, but it was more of a hobby. He also cut a deal with a local yard on labor. The yard used his projects as busy work between real jobs.
Patience and perseverance is important. Look every day at the paper, local sale mags. and web for the deal you are looking for. You must be able to negotiate the deal to your favor once you find your project.
I like used boats that are minor hull projects because I refuse to run a used engine or buy a new rig. I'll find a boat with a blown motor and repower. Minor hull project is important because I probably will not keep the boat but five years.
Here's the deal on my last boat that I bought in 2000. A 1984 23ft. Robalo with a blown 1990 200hp Merc and 1999 Magictilt trailer. The guy had paid $9,700 for the rig when he bought it in 1999.
He blew up the motor, rebuilt by former owner, and couldn't see spending money to repower or rebuild for the second time. As a side note, never buy a motor that was rebuilt just to sell the motor or rig.
This guy was a pretty typical novice boat owner. On top of that he was a "boat board" hypochondriac. He had posted the boat on the "For Sale" side of the board, but raised all these fears and questions on the "Boating" side of the board. I found these issue through a search on his name.
He had convinced himself, after reading the "Boating" board that the boat had a rotten transom and water logged foam. I used this information to beat him down on the price to $3600 for the total rig. I sold the motor for $600. I now had a rig that cost $3000 without a motor and had a one year old trailer that cost $2200 new.
I called 15-20 dealers on motors and found one that was willing to sell a 2000 225hp for $7,500 in the box. This guy is a large volume inland dealer. His reasoning was that he'd taken a truck load of motors and had a couple of extra 225's that he knew he would be discounting as a carry over a year from then.
I bought the control box and wiring harness from my local dealer and I mounted the motor.
I rewired the boat. I did some minor fiberglass repair.
I've got about $12,500 in the rig. This boat is built like a tank. It has a hull as strong as any premimum boat on the market today that would cost four to five times what I have it.
I would only buy a Cobia built Robalo. It will have COR as the begining prefix of the serial number. The old AMF Robalo's were built like a Whaler. Cobia built Robalo's have an oak stringer grid system. Dunk, who has seen the inside of one, swears that there is enough glass over the stringers that if the oak rotted completely away, you'd never know it.
My boat is 18 years old and there are absolutely no structural related stress cracks any where. There are a few stress cracks from air pockets caused by improper layup. These are minimal and easily repaired.
I'll try and post a picture over in the "Photo" forum.
thanks for the replies. I did not know seacraft had made a 23 inboard. That ones interesting to me. I want to stick to a trailerable (with oversize permit if need be ) size. Please Keep the suggestions coming.
Im not exactly a neophyte. Ive had 3 boats in last 4 yrs, and tend to put way more money in than I can ever get out. Im good with wood, glass, gelcoat, paint, motors, etc. and will do EVERYTHING, (except spraying the awlgrip or imron) myself. I would plan to spend $20-30K to re-do a major project boat correctly if I think it might be a good long term boat for me. It would be good to be able to use the boat for a while before starting to sink serious $$, just in case it turns out that I dont like it. But it wouldnt be smart to put too much into a hull that would be difficult to re-sell either. Lose a couple grand, I could deal with it (like depreciation on new boat) , lose 20K, I dont
think so, thats why I have no plans to ever buy a NEW boat.
The bertram I looked at was totally stripped. No fittings, no wires, no hoses, no seats, no wheel, no nothing, missing part of windshield frame. It did have a bowrail and rubrail though. It had been used commercial, and had a poorly homemade motor cover hatch, in addition to about a dozen layers of peeling paint. It was missing EVERYTHING. It had been bastardized to an extent too that would have to be corrected to put into original shape. And unfortunately, some parts are too hard to come by and would need to be made custom.
The wood in transom was rock solid though, and hull appeared undamaged as it can with 3/16" of peeling paint.
Merc cmae out with small IO diesel to replace the IO in boats like bert 25. older grady's or even io seacrafts. You may want to look at that option when choosing a hull-I'm sure there are a few gas IO around to refurbish.
