ETHANOL PROBLEM(S) login!

[Bruce W]

As most of us have seen on here recently, the "ethanol situation" has the potential for creating havoc (according to a lot of THTer's) on our favorite pastime! From what I have read here, I, for one, am taking this SERIOUSLY!

I thought it might save us ALL a lot of "searching" if we have ONE place to "log in" ANY "REAL WORLD" ethanol-related problems experienced by THT'er's or friends?

If we keep these "experiences" TOGETHER - for reference by everyone - it will help ALL of us in the long run!

If/when you have an ACTUAL problem, please post the problem AND the solution (hopefully!) HERE so all of us will benefit!

If anyone else has any other suggestion(s) as to how we can keep on top of this, PLEASE chime in???

I'll try to keep the thread "bumped" from time to time so that it remains "active".

Regards,

[John_Madison CT]

We've been dealing with it here in CT for a few years. Word to the wise, make sure you have a 10 micron Fuel filter. (Racor, newest Yamaha)

Ever since dealing with the problems from the initial conversion, we've been generally OK. People with Fiberglass fuel tanks still have big problems.

[Fishing-Rod]

Here is detailed explanation of what my boat/motor did this past weekend:

2 months ago I had Clean Fuels from Annapolis come out and clean out my fuel tank and they removed about 1.5 quarts of crud and water. I then topped off my tank with new fuel and added fuel stabalizer, Yamaha Ring Free and finally a new S3213 Racor 10 Micron fuel filter. On opening day 2 weeks ago I took it out and it ran fine all day and then while returning to port I had a brief "Hick-Up" of the motor being fuel starved and then continued on in without incident.

On Saturday morning I installed a new Yamaha 90gph 10 Micron fuel filter, and then launched the boat and ran 5 miles off Chesapeake Beach and trolled 7 hours using my 9.9 4-Stroke Kicker Motor. On my return to port I again experienced a fuel "Hick-Up" that this time caused my engine to die. I restarted and then finished returning to port without incident. Total estimate of fuel used on Saturday 12-15 gallons between my 225 and 9.9 motors.

Then I launched again on Sunday and ran again 5 miles off Chesapeake Beach and trolled 5 hours using my 9.9 kicker motor. On my return to port I again experience a fuel "Hick-Up" that caused my engine to die again, restarted and it died again after a couple minutes, it then continued to die over and over again as I tried coming back using less and less throttle. Finally I started up the kicker motor and ran it to return. (Big Clue: During the run back in on the kicker motor I started the 225 again to see how it would run and then both engines died from fuel starvation.) Since I was only 2.5 miles from port when all this happened I decided to just try and get in on my kicker motor instead of trying to replace the fuel filter on the water, but I had 2 spares on board. At first I was thinking there might be a problem with the VST screen inside the 225 engine but when both motors quit at the same time this told me that the problem was between the fuel tank and the fuel filter. Total estimate of fuel used on Sunday 10 gallons between my 225 and 9.9 motors.

My “Best Guess” on potential causes:
1. Dirty or Contaminated Fuel, I have already called Clean Fuel of Annapolis to come out and re-clean the tank on May 15th
2. Cut open the current fuel filter to determine if it’s full of debris or crud, and if it is what type of contamination is in the filter.
3. Debris or Crud lodged inside Fuel Pick-up or the hose leading to the fuel filter
4. Debris or Crud that is partially sucked up into fuel pick-up and then drops back down into the tank after the engine dies. Which causes the engine to run for short while before being sucked back up again into the fuel pick-up
5. Debris or Crud settles to the bottom of the fuel tank overnight and only after the boat runs throughout the day does the stuff get loosened up and causes the fuel system to clog up (problem has only occurred when returning to port under the 225 engine)

>>>>>>>>>>
I'm pretty sure that when I topped off my tank (about 40 gallons) after the first cleaning the new fuel was an 10% Ethanol mix, even though I did it well in advance of the required switchover. I've talked to the Racor technician who said that oil companies have been phasing in the E10 blends into their inventory so they wouldn't be left with MTBE inventory in their system. While I'm waiting for Clean fuels to come out and re-clean my tank and feul it's at Tri-State Marine so they can check out the entire fuel system. Hopefully this will take care of my fuel problems once and for all.

Thanks, Fishing-Rod

[jeremiah2360]

Heres an interesting thread started by a chemist on fuel,ethanol,and fuel system cleaners. Its long but informative;

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...5;t=000065;p=1

[stripertom]

What about crud in the anti-siphon valve at the tank? Just another thing to check.

-- Tom

[Jan from Humboldt]

This fuel sucks in outboards.

I went through this garbage last year with a new motor, added a Raycor ten mike water fuel filter/separator, and am using marine fuel stabilizer and the motor still took a dump this spring.

Last year with less than 50 hours, the carbs had to be rebuilt and re-jetted, due to this fuel. At that point, the Raycor was added and stabilizer was a standard use item after every fuel up.

During storage this winter the boat was stored with a full tank and was ran for 30-45 minutes at a fast idle every 2 weeks all winter.
The boat has a 21-gallon tank and seven to ten gallons of fuel were exchanged every month in the boat to keep the fuel fresh.

A new fuel filter carter age was installed late March as well

The boat was stored in late October and Yesterday I took it out for the first trip of the season and frankly although it ran, it ran like crap.

Hard to start, poor idle, hesitation on acceleration, loss of power and rpm's at the low end, at the high end rpm's (5000+)it ran better, but still wasn't running as well as last year.

Last season the boat would hit 30 mph @ 5900 rpm this year it barely hit 5900 and only did 26-27 per the gps.

Bottom line is that I have a new boat and motor that I have owned since 5/9/2005 and due to the Yamaha motor and this fuel, it gets to go back to the shop yet again with less than a hundred hours on the motor.

Yamaha sent me a customer satisfaction survey a while back, I saved it until I could take the boat out this spring, here is the "Attached letter" that is going back to Yamaha with the survey.

5/5/2006

I have owned my Triumph 150CC since 5/9/2005 and overall it is a fine little skiff for inshore fishing, the Yamaha 40 four-stroke was reputed to be a good engine although I am more than a little disappointed at its performance to date. The first hint of a problem was last year with the motor was hard starting and refusal to idle until warmed up and it got progressively worse to the point where the motor would die and not run.

The problem was attributed to the change from MTBE in California to ethanol mix gasoline in June/July ‘05 here and ethanol’s absorption of water causing corrosion in the carburetors.

The fix was easy, the carburetors were re-jetted and rebuilt (Although getting the jets from Yamaha in Japan took quite a bit longer than expected) a Raycor filter was added with a ten micron water fuel separating cartridge. I think Yamaha should have alerted the dealers to insist on the installation of a filter with the new boat since they knew there was a problem with the ethanol fuel.

I was advised by my dealership to use fuel stabilizer and run the motor twice a month during winter storage. Now here it is 5/5/2006 and after the first fishing trip of the season the motor is unfortunately not running correctly again, it is sputtering, not idling well, surging, and loosing power at low speeds. The fuel filters were changed and the fuel is fresh.

In my opinion the low speed jets are restricted/clogging up again by the way it’s running, once you apply more throttle the rpm’s increase and the surging quits although there is a noticeable lack of top end performance, this is pretty much a repeat of last years problems.

I am impressed with the fuel economy, if I keep an easy hand on the throttle and keep the speed down around 15-17 knots I get an impressive 8.75 per gallon. On one trip, I kept the speed to 15-16 as a test and got ten miles per gallon. Top speed is right at 30 kts @ 5900rpm last year, top speed today was about 26 mph @5900.

In addition, if you were wondering, I would get the same boat again (Although I might go with a different engine)

I’ve owned several different boats in the past with larger motors made by Evenrude, Mercury and Johnson and honestly I must add here that I didn’t have the troubles with those motors that I’ve had with this Yamaha. I maintain my equipment in perfect order and as one’s life can literally hinge on the dependability of the motor with the ocean conditions here when crossing Humboldt Bay bar having a motor that will not run well places my life on the line.

I would like to add that the Outboard Center where I purchased the boat and motor has been very helpful and 100% supportive on fixing these issues and their service is top notch.
I will be taking the boat back in on 5/10/06.

When the motor is running correctly it is a pleasure to use, however having a motor with less than 100 hours on it and having these kinds of problems makes me wonder if I made the right choice.

To sum this up I am a happy Triumph owner and a very unhappy Yamaha owner at this point in time.

xxxx

[Flat Out Charters]

Not to doubt that the fuel switch has caused problems, I would think if the boat in question were new, and hence has not built up carbon deposits in the motor or sludge in the tank & lines, it really shouldn't create too much of a problem. Water absorption would be something to watch, although I am not sure 10% will be a huge problem for anyone except those who "winterize" their boats.

Also, you stated you originally got 30 kts at 5900 RPMs (approx 35 mph), now only 26 mph at the same 5900 RPM. Something else must have changed. If you are spinning the same prop through the same gears at the same 5900 RPM, ... you should get essentially the same speed. The prop doesn't know what fuel is in the motor, ... and 5900 RPM is 5900 RPM regardless of the fuel used. Obviously that would be dependent upon all other variables (tide, wind, etc.) remaining constant.

I am confident the outboard manufacturers can make motors that run and perform well on this fuel. They resisted the change in pollution standards that prompted the DFI motors, ... but now we have motors that run better, more efficiently, and pollute less. This will be a minor problem for them to overcome.

[LouC]

There is a very long thread on www.noreast.com (boating angler forum) on this problem. I have use the fuel with ethanol for the past 2 seasons and have not had any problems I could attribute to the ethanol. 1st season there was some red crud in the bottom of the filter, 2nd season it was totally clean. I was helping my neighbor trouble shoot a problem with his inboards, we pulled off one fuel filter (water seperating filter) and it was about 3/4 full of water. He didn't know if it was because of ethanol, or maybe a bad gasket on the fuel filler cap.
In referece to the problem with fiberglass tanks, didn't many gas stations switch over to fiberglass tanks, because the steel ones they had rusted, and caused pollution? Well now this will get interesting, looks like a whole new problem.

[Bruce W]

OUCH - some VERY good info already!

Thank you to those that are giving some good, detailed info - hopefully, it will save others some pain and suffering!

I've still got about 25gal. or so of fuel from January (along with Sta-Bil in it!), but it's only a matter of 2 more trips - 3 at most - before I have to add the 10% crap to the tank!

Would it be best to run as MUCH of the NON-ethanol stuff OUT of my tank beFORE I add ANY of the ethanol gas - or just add the ethanol when I get down to 1/2 tank (17gal.) or so????? I usually fill it up when it gets down to 1/2 tank or so???

KEEP THE INFO COMING and THANKS!

Regards,

[miike]

LouC - 5/7/2006 11:34 AM

There is a very long thread on www.noreast.com (boating angler forum) on this problem. I have use the fuel with ethanol for the past 2 seasons and have not had any problems I could attribute to the ethanol. 1st season there was some red crud in the bottom of the filter, 2nd season it was totally clean. I was helping my neighbor trouble shoot a problem with his inboards, we pulled off one fuel filter (water seperating filter) and it was about 3/4 full of water. He didn't know if it was because of ethanol, or maybe a bad gasket on the fuel filler cap.
In referece to the problem with fiberglass tanks, didn't many gas stations switch over to fiberglass tanks, because the steel ones they had rusted, and caused pollution? Well now this will get interesting, looks like a whole new problem.

how many more people have used ethanol for a few seasons and not had problems?

[north coast]

I'm on my 6th or 7th trip with the new fuel. mixed the first tank (25 gals.) with half tank(25gal) of the old stuff(I didn't know you weren't supposed to) these were long days on the water . so far so good! have racor water seperator.drain a little off the bowl ,before and after each run. you can smell the alcohol. my fingers are crossed.

[Fishing-Rod]

Followup:
While I'm still waiting for the repair shop to get to my boat and check out the fuel system I went down to the boat yesterday (Saturday) and pulled off the fuel filter. I drained the contents into a glass jar and the and cut it open... It was clean, no water, no crud, no varnish, it looked brand new. I showed it to one of the head mechanics, he said that was good to know when they start checking everything out but it could also be the anti-siphon valve" at the top of the tank (good call Stripertom).

I will let the board know what the final diagnosis is.

thanks, Fishing-Rod

[capt.nick]

miike - 5/7/2006 3:02 AM

how many more people have used ethanol for a few seasons and not had problems?

Had the same red crud I poured out of my first separator after started using ethenol. It setled out pretty quickly to the bottom of bottle I inspected it in. Never saw it again since. Wonder if you get that since storage tanks and transfer lines all along system are not totally clean and purged of debris after cleaning. I did have my fuel feed pump go bad in my 225F Yamaha last year, which could have happened by starving for fuel and ran dry. After replacing feed pump it did quit running once upon throttling up like it had starved for fuel, but never did it again in 100+hrs. If they can't send it through pipelines since they are metal, I wonder how it will effect aluminum tanks?

[LI Sound Grunt]

[quote]John_Madison CT - 5/6/2006 7:03 AM

We've been dealing with it here in CT for a few years. Word to the wise, make sure you have a 10 micron Fuel filter. (Racor, newest Yamaha)[quote]



Also, if you have a mercruiser carbed inboard or I/O engine with the screen type filter in the carb - keep a few extra of those - the stuff (red sawdust looking crap) seems to be able to work its way into those.

I actually pumped out my tanks and still never got it all.

[LouC]

I had a performance problem with my I/O when I first had it that turned out to be the antisiphon valve. It would start and idle fine, and would rev right up to 3 grand in the water (neutral) with no problem. But it would not accelerate past about 1500 rpm with a load on it. I went through the whole ignition system, the accelerator pump seemed to be working, took it to my I/O mechanic and he found that there was corrosion in the anti siphon causing it to not open when the suction of the fuel pump was applied. He explained that many boat builders use cheaper ones that don't last that long, he used a better quality one (this was spring 2004) and no problems since. I don't know if ethanol was a factor there, this was before everyone was talking about this problem.

[jeremiah2360]

LouC - 5/7/2006 11:51 AM

I had a performance problem with my I/O when I first had it that turned out to be the antisiphon valve. It would start and idle fine, and would rev right up to 3 grand in the water (neutral) with no problem. But it would not accelerate past about 1500 rpm with a load on it. I went through the whole ignition system, the accelerator pump seemed to be working, took it to my I/O mechanic and he found that there was corrosion in the anti siphon causing it to not open when the suction of the fuel pump was applied. He explained that many boat builders use cheaper ones that don't last that long, he used a better quality one (this was spring 2004) and no problems since. I don't know if ethanol was a factor there, this was before everyone was talking about this problem.

FWIW my merc mechanic recommended a Johnson/Evinrude anti siphon valve and he is a merc fanatic so they must be good. He also hates all things Tempo.

[drydock]

Phoenix has had ethanol for a long time. Every year I overhaul my Holly carb to clean out the crud, which appears to be a whiteish material on the bottom of the bowls. 2 years ago the crud stuck my rear float to the bottom of the bowl, causing the carb to overflow, scared the &%#@! out of me. In talking with a carb specialist here, he mentioned the best solution was to remove the carb and bag it in an airtight container during long periods of non-use. So based on his advise and my observations I think the evaporation in the bowls allows the water in the ethanol to settle out and accumulate. I wouldn't think this would be an issue with fuel injected engines. I am also amazed at the amount of rust and water I find in my fuel/water seperator each year when I replace it. This is Arizona! Most of the year humidity is in the single digits, yet there is still a significant amount of water reaching the filter. I trailer my boat, so it sits in the middle of the Sonoran Desert 95% of the time.

[scubasteven]

The anti-siphon valve seems to be a real pain in the as$ for several people. We have a new diesel motor on our boat and were haveing major dificulties with the engine reaching the desired RPM's after about a half day of fishing and the culprit was the anti-siphon valve as well. We removed the piece of crap and the motor runs fine now. Just my .02 worth.

Roll Tide,

Scuba

[ccm]

We are just getting ethanol now in Mass. I just bought a 93 regulator that has been on the south shore of Long Island. Has the ethanol been used there? Im putting new 200 hpdis on with the Yamaha filters but Id love to know if the tank is used to the ethanol.

[LouC]

It has been up here on the North Shore for at least 2 years.
BTW, my mech also used a Johnny/Rude anti-siphon valve