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I have heard a lot about the Yamaha 225's on this forum it seems they are the motor of choice nationally. Just like the Chevy/Ford thing or the Dodge/? thing. I think Yamaha based on reading this site and articles and reviews about them has the majority. Does anyone have the Honda 225's and would comment about them. I have always had great luck and have always heard that Honda is service free has a great warrantee program and alway hear about how long they last. But is this true in Honda outboards.
BAZ...
SEABAZ is a 2000 26’ Seaswirl Striper W/A Volvo Penta 5.0GI w/DuoProp
I just purchased a brand new Triton 2486 with a Honda 225 and love it. although it only has 24 hours on it , top speed is 44 mph and cruise speed is 32 mph at 4000 rpm. Also I am getting about 2.8 mpg with a full load which gives me all the range and time needed to fish hard all day. It is so quiet when trolling you best play your Stereo system to stay awake. At idle I have to check my Tach, tattletale and suction pressure gages to ensure the motor is running. I dout if you can buy a better outboard. I am a yammie fan also but the honda will make you a very proud owner.
I have the BF225 Honda on a JC Tritoon pontoon boat. The motor has 72 hours on it thus far (unfortunately our season is over). The motor has exceeded all expectations. Starts easily, no smoke, will idle all day, has great mid range pull, and is easy on fuel under 4000 rpm's.. Had 11 different props on the boat before I got the correct one that made the boat perform like it should ( a Mercury prop).. I changed the oil, filter, and lower unit oil at 25 hours. The filter is the same as my Honda Odyssey (around $6.00) and takes 8 qts of 10w30.. Oil filter is easy to get to and you can either drain oil out a drain plug or pump out thru the dipstick. When ordering the boat-motor combination I went to the dealers service dept and asked if they had been to school on the BF200-225?
They said next year as their Honda service rep told them there would be no service issues. Honda makes great products-I have 5 different total. One last thing, I would not get the 200.. At 4500 rpm's the Vtech engages and the 225 really comes too life and is only $1100 more.
In my "private reading room" (you know what I mean [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] ) I have about 3 years of Trailer Boats Magazines. The June 2002 issue did a head to head comparison on the Yamaha and Honda 225. It was pretty through report including weigh in and dyno run.
First you should know that the Honda 200 and 225 are identical except for the variable valve timing (Honda calls it VTEC) on the 225. This "kicks in" at about 4000 rpm and allows the 225 to run up to 6000 rpm, 500 over the max hp point of the 200.
Yamaha claims to weighs 583 while Honda say theirs weighs 599. Actual "Rigged to Run" weights are 632 .5 and 638.5. The fuel flow and hp/torque charts are interesting. The Yamaha beat ot the Honda for top speed by 1.5 mph.
Find a library that has back issues of TBM and spend a few dimes copying these article. It will be worth it !
[This message was edited by theoldwizard on 11-22-02 at 08:47 PM.]
[This message was edited by theoldwizard on 11-22-02 at 08:47 PM.]
They are both excellent. Go where you get the best deal, and where you will be comfortable with getting it serviced. Hypothetically if a family lived in LA, and was able to get a much cheaper price for a Honda, and had an excellent Honda dealer in their area, then they should get the Honda. If a family lived in Boston, and got a much better deal on Yamaha, and had an excellent Yamaha dealer in their area they should get a Yamaha.
If you met these 2 hypothetical families 5 years from now, they would tell you that their engines gave about the same performance, used about the same amount of fuel, and cost about the same amount of money to maintain.
Don’t be so fixated on the 4 stroke outboard. Don’t count the 2 stroke outboards out yet. The only thing wrong with the old fashioned 2 stroke outboards were that they belched out too much smoke, and they were thirsty ( used too much fuel ). Nobody ever complained out their reliability.
In the rush to make 2 stoke outboards comply with stringent California pollution control requirements, lot of mistakes were made. But now that the outboard manufacturers are “cleaning up their act” in more ways than one, the modern 2 stroke outboard can be just as good as a 4 stroke but in a different way.
All kinds of 2 stroke engines are great. Were you aware of that some of the greatest diesel engines ever made, were 2 stroke diesels made by the Detroit Diesel company? These engines were called “Jimmies”. Some of these engines lasted almost 50 years. The only reason they stopped making them was because of pollution control requirements.
Don’t rule out the HPDI Yamaha 2 stroke outboard. The Yamaha 4 stroke outboard isn’t better, it’s just different. The least thing you should be concerned about is how much fuel you will be using on a $100,000 plus boat. Fuel will only amount to 10% of the total cost of running the boat. If one engine is 10% more fuel efficient than another, and fuel is only 10% of running the boat, you can see that looking at the most fuel efficient engine really doesn’t matter that much.
I’m not saying that fuel efficiency doesn’t count. Yes, you should look for a somewhat fuel efficient engine. But look at the big picture. After you factor in dockage, depreciation, financing charges, insurance, maintenance & repairs, the cost of fuel isn’t going to make or break which engine you choose.
I once had it figured out that on a new 24’ outboard fishing boat, that if you took your yearly expenses and divided it by the amount of rides you went on, it would come out to $400 a ride. When I told this to a land lubber, he would shake his head and say I didn’t know gas was that much! No the gas isn’t $400, but all the other expenses add up.
Miami Vice
Interesting threads going on with outboards on the "Boating Forum"
Some are saying they are repower their boats with little to no hours on them. My understanging of all motors are, if you like them you rebuild? Right? how come guys are changing outdrives in 2000 hours? Don't you just rebuild. Are the motors shot that bad at 2000 hours that rebuilding is not a good choice or option. I am saying 2000 because thats what they are saying. Here is my take. As an average of 100 hours a season and most of us will do more that 150 to 200 hours a year. 200 hours a year divided by the 2000 hours of life is only 10 year motor and then you buy a new $15,000 to $20,000 motor? Whats with that? Are they saying they are that shot that fixing them is not an option or is it a reliability issure after that long of hours. In my mind when you rebuild to new that = 2000 mor hours maybe 500 less give or take? If you have a Volvo Penta gas block and it goes down you do not remove and put a new one in its place you just rebuild it. Even with new manafolds, exhaust, risers and what ever it takes your taking less than $7500.00 to to replace one of the big outboards at $15,000 or more is rediculous?
i had one on a boat i just sold last month.it was a good motor with sluggish performance when the boat was loaded with gear.top end was good just getting there under load was slow.It was quiet & good on gas.
I see you have your calculator out again. Good !
quote:Are (outboard) motors shot that bad at 2000 hours that rebuilding is not a good choice or option. I am saying 2000 because thats what they are saying.
Excellent question. My guess is that there are less "experienced" outboard powerhead mechanics around. Here are a couple of web links that sell rebuilt powerheads
iboats Bennet Marine
quote: Even with new manifolds, exhaust, risers and what ever it takes your taking less than $7500.00 to to replace one of the big outboards at $15,000 or more is rediculous?
But what is the life expectancy of mainfolds, risers, gimbal bearing, etc. on a boat stored in salt water ? 3-5 Years ? You may have to do those replacement 3 or more times during the same time life of the outboard.
All big outboards have some form of Engine Control Module. The 2 stroke folks, except for FICHT, have additional mechanical (i.e. wear factor) fuel/air pumps. The HPDI has an extra injector driver module. The 4 stroke folks (Honda and Yamaha) rely on more "traditional" motor designs (except for the Honda 225 which use their VTEC variable cam timing).
Unfortunatley, only time will tell which of these designs is the most reliable and "cost effective" (initial cost, fuel consumption, repair, longevity, etc., etc.)
[This message was edited by theoldwizard on 11-23-02 at 04:05 PM.]
quote: All big outboards have some form of Engine Control Module. The 2 stroke folks, except for FICHT, have additional mechanical (i.e. wear factor) fuel/air pumps.
Are these mechanical control modules sturdy or do they last a long time?
quote: The HPDI has an extra injector driver module.
The IDM module is this the unit that increases the injection pressure from the said 700 psi to the new injected pressure of 1000 psi.
quote:The 4 stroke folks (Honda and Yamaha) rely on more "traditional" motor designs (except for the Honda 225 which use their VTEC variable cam timing).
The variable cam timing (VTEC) kicks in for higher RPM's like the 4 barrel carbs kick in when you really romp on it or am I confused about how the VTEC works.
Yamaha F225 are fantastic engines. Also great dealer network.
One of the biggest questions I have is how good is a Honda lower unit. Basically, this is a brand new lower unit for Honda with the high horsepower.
Yamaha has been building V6's for over 18 years. I have ran Yammies since 84. Only had one lower unit failure. Ran Mercury for 2 and 1/2 years and had 6 lower unit failures. (and they have been building them for years!)
In L.A. when an outboard is 10 years old, let’s assume you decide to rebuild it. A rebuilder just replaces the metal parts in the engine. He replaces or rebuilds things like pistons, crankshafts, connecting rods, wrist pins, rings, heads, and or blocks. As far as the lower unit, you might get that replaced, or rebuilt.
What’s the prudent thing to do with a 10 year old outboard in L.A.
THROW IT OUT!
You paid $20,000 & it lasted 10 years. That’s only $2,000 a year. That’s a bargain! That’s what it costs to go boating in L.A. When it comes to fighting salt corrosion you can never win.
Why do you throw out an outboard after 10 years? Because the salt destroys all of the things the engine rebuilder doesn’t change. When you get a new engine after 10 years the $20,000 will include new gauges on your dash, a new key switch, new shifter and throttle controls & cables. The salt destroys all of this stuff, and after 10 years the prudent thing to do is to start new. As far as the outboard goes, a new outboard gets you new electronics on your outboard. NO rebuilder ever gives you NEW ELECTRONICS when they rebuild your outboard. Everybody is too hung up on after 10 years how much wear there is on their pistons, cylinders, etc. After 10 years it’s the electronics on the outboard that’s shot. Today’s marine engines ( including diesels & gasoline I/O’s ) are highly electronic to meet all the pollution controls. After 10 years the salt starts eating all this stuff up.
Now getting back to the boater in Chicago. His outboard can last 40 years because he doesn’t have to worry about that little dirty 4 letter word called salt. In L.A. you have to allow in your boating budget $2,000 per year per engine. If you don’t, you are only fooling yourself.
Miami Vice
Baz said,
quote: Are these mechanical control modules sturdy or do they last a long time?
We crossed wires. The mechanical things I was refering to are some type of auxillary pump.
On the HPDI it is the high pressure fuel pump (1000 psi on the 250). It also uses a pair of low pressure pressure mechanical pumps to pull fuel from the tank through a water seperator, and force it through a vapor seperator before it goes to the high pressure pump. (Both water and air/gas vapor would cause excessive wear on a high pressure pump)
The Ficht use the same low pressure mechanical pump to pull fuel from the tank, but also has a 25 psi electric fuel pump (similar to what is in every gas car/truck today) to feed the injectors. The special Ficht injectors (1 per cylinder, individually replaceable) can create 250 psi in cylinder pressure.
I'm not certain how many pumps are in the Optimax fuel syetem, but it does have a high pressure air pump (250 psi).
Anything "high pressure" will wear, especially if not well lubricated. (Mechanical diesel pumps are high pressure, but they are lubricated by the fuel. Gasoline is not a lubricant.)
Remember, all 3 of these alternatives also have 1 or more oil pumps to pull oil from its tanks and mix it with the fuel or spray it on the bearing.
quote: The IDM module is this the unit that increases the injection pressure from the said 700 psi to the new injected pressure of 1000 psi.
No, the IDM is just a seperate box of electronics (just like on your PowerStroke). Electrical Engineers like to seperate "high voltage/current" signals (like driving injectors) from "low voltage" signals (sensor voltage, etc.) It is a more robust design.
quote: The variable cam timing (VTEC) kicks in for higher RPM's like the 4 barrel carbs kick in when you really romp on it or am I confused about how the VTEC works.
You got it ! To take maximum advantage of VTEC, you have to spin the engine higher. The Honda 225 has a redline of +500 over the non-VTEC 200.
HONDA 4 Stroke 225's anyone running them? 
