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Old 03-01-2006, 12:41 AM
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Dae
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Default Use Top Tier Gas to keep carbon down!

With all this talk about carbon buildup in outboard motors and outboard maufacturers recommanding fuel additives, I decided to try and figure out why and now know why.

It seems that since 1995 when the EPA put in place a minimum additive requirement, fuel additives have dropped by as much as 50%! Seems crazy but what these oil companies did was drop their additive package to just hit the minimum when in the past they were adding additives to was as advertisment to get a competitive edge.

With the drop in additives, auto manufacturers started noticing more problems with their motors and have decided to fight back. GM, Honda, Toyota, and BMW and have started a consortium to certify gas a TOP TIER GAS. These brands that qualify now have to meet higher standards then the EPA standard so I'd advise you to look for these brands.

Because of what I've found out about gas, I am now going to start adding additional additives in all my gas motors, especially since the brands that currently qualify as Top Tier are not in my area.

If you want to learn more, take a look at their website: http://www.toptiergas.com/

Also if you are currently not using additives in your gas, I would recommand that you start, especially if you're not using a Top Tier gas.

BTW, based on the information I've been able to find online, Chevorn Techron seems to get the thumbs up as the best proven additive on the market.


- Dae

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Old 03-01-2006, 12:50 AM
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Default RE: Use Top Tier Gas to keep carbon down!

Quote:
Dae - 3/1/2006 1:41 AM



With the drop in additives, auto manufacturers started noticing more problems with their motors and have decided to fight back. GM, Honda, Toyota, and BMW and have started a consortium to certify gas a TOP TIER GAS. These brands that qualify now have to meet higher standards then the EPA standard so I'd advise you to look for these brands.

The same auto manufactuers that recommend the use of premium fuel in some of their vehicles that have absolutely no need for that requirment. dont believe for a second tha there isnt a relationship between the auto industry and the oil industry.
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Old 03-01-2006, 06:30 AM
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Default RE: Use Top Tier Gas to keep carbon down!

Another reason to de-carb on a regular basis.
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Old 03-01-2006, 07:07 AM
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Default Re: Use Top Tier Gas to keep carbon down!

Top-tier may be important but gas rotation is just as important. Make sure you are filling up at places that go thru a lot of gas as opposed to the back woods place that may have let their tanks age a bit due to slower business...According to a Merc fluid engineer I talked to last year, this was his biggest receommendation when discussing fuels. His opin was that some gas formulations will start to varnish in as little as 21 days if left to sit....I'll still continue to use quikleen anti carbon additive on each fillup....
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Old 03-01-2006, 08:42 AM
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Default Re: Use Top Tier Gas to keep carbon down!

I own 2 BMW's. A 2005 X5 4.4 and a 2003 745i. Both say they require at least 91 and or Premium gas. I travel on long trips for business, did 1786 miles last week, and I hardly ever use 92 octane. I can not tell a differance between the 92 and 89 or 87 in both BMW's. What got me started with useing 87 or 89 octane is last summer when the hurricanes blew through 92 octane was hard to impossible to find for a while. I had to get gas so I filled up with 87 in my X5. I noticed no differance in performance and heard no pinging from the engine! I have tried to speak with the service manager at my BMW dealer about this but he just will not give me a truthful straight answer and seems to avoid the real question. So I will continue to use the lower octane gas since I hear and feel no ill effects.
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Old 03-01-2006, 09:51 AM
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Default Re: Use Top Tier Gas to keep carbon down!

Quote:
Fever Mike - 3/1/2006 7:42 AM

I own 2 BMW's. A 2005 X5 4.4 and a 2003 745i. Both say they require at least 91 and or Premium gas. I travel on long trips for business, did 1786 miles last week, and I hardly ever use 92 octane. I can not tell a differance between the 92 and 89 or 87 in both BMW's. What got me started with useing 87 or 89 octane is last summer when the hurricanes blew through 92 octane was hard to impossible to find for a while. I had to get gas so I filled up with 87 in my X5. I noticed no differance in performance and heard no pinging from the engine! I have tried to speak with the service manager at my BMW dealer about this but he just will not give me a truthful straight answer and seems to avoid the real question. So I will continue to use the lower octane gas since I hear and feel no ill effects.
The performance drop may not be that noticeable but it's there. Your onboard microprocessor via sensors will retard your timing when need arises.
As far as my outboard, I de-carb semi annually and always use a fuel conditioner/preservative.
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Old 03-01-2006, 10:05 AM
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Default Re: Use Top Tier Gas to keep carbon down!

so can I use Top-Tier Gas in my Mid-Tier boat?



I only have 92 available at the fuel dock, but as said before gas rotation just as important as the octane rating.....
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Old 03-01-2006, 10:26 AM
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Default Re: Use Top Tier Gas to keep carbon down!

I own an Acura MDX, and while the salesmen say the "recommended" fuel is 91 octane and above, he specifically pointed out in the owners manual where it says the minimum requirement is 87, and you may notice a small degredation in peformance. With engine technology so sophisticated these days, and compression levels so high, they recommend higher octane, but the newer engines are "smart" enough to automatically tone down compression to compensate for lower octane. I don't notice any performance hit either. If it doesn't ping, it will be fine, and if I am losing 5 HP I can't tell. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 03-01-2006, 10:33 AM
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Default Re: Use Top Tier Gas to keep carbon down!

When having this very same conversation with David at Eds Marine Superstore during the purchase of my 2 Yamaha counter rotating 200 HPDIs, he said it was really important to follow the MFGs instructions regarding the fuel octane level. He said the 200s where meant to run on 87 and running a higher octane level would do more damage than be good for the motors when it was all said and done. The trade off to the higher octane for better performance puts extra heat (EGTs) and stress on the upper end of the motor and would shorten the life of your engine rather than extend it.

He said he sees tons of motors needing service in the service bay for just not servicing, running and not following the proper manufactures recommendations and guidelines set by the MFG. The engines that last the longest are the one that are used the most, serviced regularly and are just plain and simple taken care of according to the MFGs recommendations and service schedule.

KIS (Keep It Simple) and not read into it. You either want a long lasting motor or one that is faster than factory meant it to be with less life of the engine.
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Old 03-01-2006, 11:49 AM
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Default RE: Use Top Tier Gas to keep carbon down!

Quote:
Dae - 3/1/2006 1:41 AM

With all this talk about carbon buildup in outboard motors and outboard maufacturers recommanding fuel additives, I decided to try and figure out why and now know why....



Because of what I've found out about gas, I am now going to start adding additional additives in all my gas motors, especially since the brands that currently qualify as Top Tier are not in my area.


Also if you are currently not using additives in your gas, I would recommand that you start, especially if you're not using a Top Tier gas.

BTW, based on the information I've been able to find online, Chevorn Techron seems to get the thumbs up as the best proven additive on the market.


- Dae
Chevron 'Techron" AKA Yamaha "RingFree"! Wonderful for two strokers and good for four's. Most, if not all of my five two stroke outboards (from 9.8 to 200 hps) are right on schedule to pass 3000 hours without any major engine repairs.

Not let the argument begin:......

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Old 03-01-2006, 11:59 AM
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Default Re: Use Top Tier Gas to keep carbon down!

Quote:
SteveBaz - 3/1/2006 9:33 AM

When having this very same conversation with David at Eds Marine Superstore during the purchase of my 2 Yamaha counter rotating 200 HPDIs, he said it was really important to follow the MFGs instructions regarding the fuel octane level. He said the 200s where meant to run on 87 and running a higher octane level would do more damage than be good for the motors when it was all said and done. The trade off to the higher octane for better performance puts extra heat (EGTs) and stress on the upper end of the motor and would shorten the life of your engine rather than extend it.
Huh? Don't think this is correct. Octane is a burn retardant. Higher octane gas does not burn hotter, or explode more powerfully. It burns slower, spreading the heat over a longer timeframe (all else being equal.) Octane selection is a thin-edge kind of thing; you're trying to just keep the motor from pre-igniting the mixture as the cylinders compress it. The spark will ignite the mix with any octane rated fuel (I'm talking available fuel here.)

The reason for going to a higher octane gas is to prevent premature ignition as the fuel/air mixture is compressed. Assuming neither gas has any premature ignition, the result is going to be the same. The spark ignites the fuel/air mixture, the flame-front progresses through the cylinder, and the resulting expansion drives the piston down.

Using too high an octane rating isn't going to hurt anything but your wallet.

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Old 03-01-2006, 12:26 PM
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Default RE: Use Top Tier Gas to keep carbon down!

I use 87 octane in my '03 Tahoe and I tow the hell out of everything. Never had one problem. As far as the octane levels in the fuels used in outboards...if there are truly more additives and detergents in the high octane fuels (like they want us to believe), those additives and detergents will create carbon build-up. Why?...unlike the automotive applications, outboards run at much higher RPM's which results in the carbon build-up. The odd thing about fuel recommendations is that outboard motor manuals recommend a minimum octane level of 86, but give you no maximums. My .02...stick with the 87 - 89 octanes.
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Old 03-01-2006, 02:23 PM
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Default RE: Use Top Tier Gas to keep carbon down!

The discussion here has drifted to octane number ratings of gasoline. From what I can understand from a quick look at the Top Tier site, they are not talking about octane number, and Top Tier certified gas must be compliant at all octane grade offered by a retailer in order to qualify for certification. I am not really pro/con (or care) regarding TopTier, but to clarify, it seems to be all about detergent additives.
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Old 03-01-2006, 02:46 PM
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Default RE: Use Top Tier Gas to keep carbon down!

1. Yankee is right--this is about detergents to keep carbon-build down. Not about octane.

2. Octane will become hard to come by this month or next with the de facto ban on MTBE, an ether used to add Oxygen to gasoline and to boost octane. It will be replaced in part with ethanol. In the other part, it won't be replaced, which may lead to the disappearance of 92-93 grade gasoline.

3. Ethanol likes to pull moisture out of the air, and that makes it even more important to keep your fuel fresh. Watch for water in your fuel! If you have metal tanks, you also need to start looking for rust-thru.

This is really going to be a bad situation.

4. In the US, most gas is transported by big pipeline. Refiners make pipeline spec gas, put it into the pipe and at the end pull out an amount equal to thier input. Is it the same stuff they put in? Well, maybe yes, maybe no. Bottom line, a retailer never knows whose/what gas he is selling. And if the gas is supposed to contain additives, he only knows this for sure if his wholesale supplier did the mix (by mixing in an additive "kit".)

Everybody needs to be aware of this changes in the composition of gasoline that should hit your fuel dock in late March or April.

BE CAREFUL OUT THERE
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Old 03-01-2006, 02:47 PM
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Default RE: Use Top Tier Gas to keep carbon down!

Quote:
Mr. Demeanor - 3/1/2006 1:50 AM

Quote:
Dae - 3/1/2006 1:41 AM



With the drop in additives, auto manufacturers started noticing more problems with their motors and have decided to fight back. GM, Honda, Toyota, and BMW and have started a consortium to certify gas a TOP TIER GAS. These brands that qualify now have to meet higher standards then the EPA standard so I'd advise you to look for these brands.
The same auto manufactuers that recommend the use of premium fuel in some of their vehicles that have absolutely no need for that requirment. dont believe for a second tha there isnt a relationship between the auto industry and the oil industry.

It's a conspiricy by the black helicopter gang........
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Old 03-01-2006, 02:49 PM
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Default Re: Use Top Tier Gas to keep carbon down!

Quote:
jyasaki - 3/1/2006 10:59 AM

Quote:
SteveBaz - 3/1/2006 9:33 AM

When having this very same conversation with David at Eds Marine Superstore during the purchase of my 2 Yamaha counter rotating 200 HPDIs, he said it was really important to follow the MFGs instructions regarding the fuel octane level. He said the 200s where meant to run on 87 and running a higher octane level would do more damage than be good for the motors when it was all said and done. The trade off to the higher octane for better performance puts extra heat (EGTs) and stress on the upper end of the motor and would shorten the life of your engine rather than extend it.
Huh? Don't think this is correct. Octane is a burn retardant. Higher octane gas does not burn hotter, or explode more powerfully. It burns slower, spreading the heat over a longer timeframe (all else being equal.) Octane selection is a thin-edge kind of thing; you're trying to just keep the motor from pre-igniting the mixture as the cylinders compress it. The spark will ignite the mix with any octane rated fuel (I'm talking available fuel here.)

The reason for going to a higher octane gas is to prevent premature ignition as the fuel/air mixture is compressed. Assuming neither gas has any premature ignition, the result is going to be the same. The spark ignites the fuel/air mixture, the flame-front progresses through the cylinder, and the resulting expansion drives the piston down.

Using too high an octane rating isn't going to hurt anything but your wallet.

jky
Octane is off the subject but it is not a burn retardent, it is a rating. The additives determine burn temp. but generally the harder it is to ignite the hotter it will burn. A product like Stabil added when fueling makes sense.
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Old 03-01-2006, 02:51 PM
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Default Re: Use Top Tier Gas to keep carbon down!

If your owners manual states 87 minimum than you will not see any difference between 87 or 92, in fact running 92 you could loose effeciency. Salesmen usually know squat about technicalities. Secondly, if your owners manual states 87 then the ECU's fuel and spark curve is there to provide you max efficiency at 87.
Now if your minimum is 92 then it's a different story. Compressions these days are not that high, maybe 10 to 1 on the top end. Most cars are below that. Where you find that higher octanes are needed, manufacturers are tweeking engines to get more output. This could be in the spark advance fuel delivery maps, much like the tuner you can buy for $300, along with turbo charging, and supercharging. There are some vehicles that are runing more than 10 to 1, but these are not as prevalent as most drive today.

Net net if your owners manual states 87 use it. You are not gaining anything or maybe loosing going to 89 or 92. If your owners manual states 92 and you are using 87, you are also loosing, and in some cases you may be going below the sensor threshold. You will be hard pressed to hear detonation at high rpm ranges

As far as additives carbon is a big result of MTBs that was substituted for lead, just throw a bottle of Techron in every couple of months in your car or I/O or IB, and RingFree or similar additive at every fillup for your outboards!
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Old 03-01-2006, 02:54 PM
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Default Re: Use Top Tier Gas to keep carbon down!

You guys are a gas!

Top tier gas?

Top tier toilets?

where will this paranoia end?

I guess it gives something to argue about. Keep it up! It is entertaining..

IMHO: Da book says 87. Do what da book says. Is simple..



Oops! I forgot, most of you read never manuals..

Tiss so anal..
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Old 03-01-2006, 03:06 PM
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Default Re: Use Top Tier Gas to keep carbon down!

Quote:
Fever Mike - 3/1/2006 7:42 AM

I own 2 BMW's. A 2005 X5 4.4 and a 2003 745i. Both say they require at least 91 and or Premium gas. I travel on long trips for business, did 1786 miles last week, and I hardly ever use 92 octane. I can not tell a differance between the 92 and 89 or 87 in both BMW's. What got me started with useing 87 or 89 octane is last summer when the hurricanes blew through 92 octane was hard to impossible to find for a while. I had to get gas so I filled up with 87 in my X5. I noticed no differance in performance and heard no pinging from the engine! I have tried to speak with the service manager at my BMW dealer about this but he just will not give me a truthful straight answer and seems to avoid the real question. So I will continue to use the lower octane gas since I hear and feel no ill effects.
Yankeeboater - You are right this is off topic, but I feel I must respond here. As has been noted already the management system in the car deals with "off-octane" gas in its own way, so there is no translation back to the driver. However, the ill effects are there, but take a while to emerge. Here's my experience with this:

I purchased a car that came off a 4-year lease with 42,000 miles, which required premium unleaded. After a a few thousand miles the check engine light came on yet, the engine ran smoothly and powerfully. Convinced it was a bad fuel cap or something of the sort, I brought it to the dealer for a quick fix. I was surprised to learn that a few of the valves had failed and the remaining had experienced different levels of carbon fouling. The service manager asked if premium fuel was used and I told him I wasn't sure since I had just purchased the car. He said they see this problem often with lease vehicles where the original owner neglects to use the recommended premium fuel to save money, but doesn't experience the side effects because they don't have the car long enough. Luckily for me the complete valve job was covered under warranty. The service manager offered that the new valves were redesigned to combat this problem.

The bottom line is follow the manfacturer's recommendation whether it be a boat, car, etc. Side effects don't always emerge immediately.
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Old 03-01-2006, 03:29 PM
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Default Re: Use Top Tier Gas to keep carbon down!

Still going off topic here. It was explained to me by BRP that the higher the octane the more carbon build up you will get. You need the detergents in the lower grade gas for 2 strokes. Also, wasn't there a thread about not being able to use ethanol gas for a marine application. Something about ethanol being soluable with water? Okay, now back closer to the topic. Don't most members here already use a decarbon product? (ring free, carbon guard) Just a side note; I was also told that USING Stabil that FICHT motors will start running a bit fuzzy until the fuels purged. I plan on siphoning the tank and starting fresh before cracking the motor this year. Can never go wrong with using the fresh stuff. (especially after Glen E's post)
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