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Random Quote: The world's best bilge pump is a scared boater with a bucket.
I spent some time at our local big show of the year this week and decided to kill some time in the Bayliner booth. I've owned more than my fair share of Bayliner's, and I have always firgured that if the right one came around, I might buy another one. I've been happy with my previous ones, but I also knew what I was getting. I never tried to claim that I was getting anything but a Bayliner.
I would agree to the Bayliner's as being a mid-tier boat. Especially when equipped with the right size motor and options. Their cruisers did have the best layouts in the industry and they knew how to squeeze every inch out of their hull to end up with a comfortable cabin. Of course, that also meant having to glue carpet to the inside of the hull to form an interior wall versus putting in spacers and fabricating an actual wall out of either teakwood, laminate or fiberglass. The latter also added weight to the boat, which of course would require a larger engine to move it. But those type of consolations were worth it. Getting a nicely designed boat which didn't need twin Cats to move it around and all at a price that the average working stiff could afford. But those days are gone.
With all this hoopla over claiming that the "new" Trophy is far superior to the "old" ones, I figured I'd check out some of the new models to see for myself how they are doing. Remember, I might get another one before my time is up...Well, maybe.
The first boat to catch my eye was the 1903. They had it very nicely equipped with the dark blue hull, high bow railing (one-piece), t-top and the 150 hp Merc. All in all a nice package. For looks, I give it a 10. BTW-Show price...$32,997 plus scam, I mean freight and prep.
I then hopped aboard the new 1902. Sorry, this one doesn't come close to being classified as a mid-tier boat. How could you say it does with what I saw. For instance...The hull and deck joints were secured (and I use that term loosely) with pop rivets. I did see screws holding the rubrail on, but they did not penetrate all the way through the hull/deck joint. Look under the gunnel to see this. The rubrail is another concern. Either the builders were too busy to put it on correctly, or they flat out couldn't, because they had gaps around the boat up to about a quarter of an inch along the edge. They felt that it was OK just to schmooze some silicone in there and smooth it out to try and create a smooth joint. Wrong. Poor craftsmanship in my eyes. The pieced together bow rail moved back and forth up to two inches as I stood next to it. Not very safe if you're out in the rough stuff and need to get to the bow for something. The ss tubing for the bimini top was secured with plastic connections and deck fittings. How long will plastic last in the rough stuff??? The starboard (if you can call it that) is of a thinner material than I have ever seen. I'm used to seeing it about 1/2" thick on most boats. This stuff looked to be a 1/4" or maybe 3/8" and you could see through it. Too light for my tastes. The wiring under the dash (at least the part that you can get at) was not labeled (sure, maybe color coded) and was just loosely crimped. I know, because I stuck my hand under there and lightly pulled on some wires and broke a few loose. Not unplugged, but broke loose from the (poorly) crimped connection. They should use heatshrink connectors. God forbid you take a fishing boat out in rough water once in a while. The thin plastic dash board that the gauges are mounted in has more waves on it than Malibu beach. The panel is secured with screws, and in between the screws, the plastic has lifted up. enough so that I took a penny and placed it next to the lip of the dash. Within two inches of the screw, the penny fell below the dash. There was that much wave in the plastic. Now if a penny can easily drop down behind the dash through those waves, what do you think sea water will do??? The plastic hatch on the side, yeah, the one that looks like a fish eye, had one screw put in too tightly and was already cracked. The interior cushions were too thin to be considered comfortable (common on most of the Trophy's) and the upholstered cushions in the cockpit were horrible. First, all you have to do is look at them to see that all the MFG did was to take a flat piece of vinyl, fold it over the thin foam and staple it to the base. Forget form-fitted vinyl, just wrap it up like a X-Mas present and staple it shut. On top of that, they don't use anything under the cushion to conceal the lower portion of it. Run your hand under that cushion and then call 911. You'll at least need a bandaid, if not stitches. The staples are exposed and I found at least three that were just laying there, not fully imbedded into the surface, with one end sticking out ready to stab someone. Other MFG's conceal their staples with beading and another screen type material
to prevent this. Another injury causing feature of this boat (and the other models as well) is the raw, broken off or cut bolts with a nylock nut on them for the hatches and hardware. At least Bayliner uses nylocks. But they should use washers, nylocks AND acorn nuts to finish it off. No injuries that way. Finally, the last item on this boat was the cheap, thin piece of plastic that they use to cover up the top of the transom where they mount the motor. The plastic was already warped under the stress of the motor being installed. How long do you think that will last out in the weather and everyday use??? Others use a nice custom fit SS flashing.
The other models there had the usual suspect items...Flimsy added-on transom platforms with only one step on them (2052), cheaply made off the shelf pilot seats with 1" padding which does nothing for comfort, deck hatches that you can't open without removing the seats (2052), windshields that are flimsy and have trim that does not fit properly. Wiring which is underneath that carpet/headliner stuff which if you have a problem, would require you to rip out the headliner to get to the wiring and then replace it with more glue to conceal it again until next time. And all of the other items that you read about here on THT on a daily basis. I recognized quite a few of them.
I was also impressed with a few items. The new, taller windshields. At least they offer you more protection than the previous ones (and ones on other brand boats). The agressive non-skid (which they have always had). The overall lines of the boats (with the exception of those fish-eye portholes...but that's just me), nice clutter free decks and finally a nice choice of colors. They are finally building their dashes with enough room for flush mounted electronics. And the colored dashes help cut down on windshield glare (even some of the big boys don't do that). It truly seems like they actually got a designer or two that has actually fished to put a pencil to the paper on some of the models.
Overall, they are a nice boat. They have their issues, but if someone at Bayliner would wake up and really want to do them right, they could be a VERY nice boat, and still at a fair price (considering what else is out there).
Some of the items that I mentioned might not be a concern to some folks. Some items will. But unfortunately, some of the items will stick out in the minds of buyers and the ever present bashers and will forever be brought to the surface.
I did take digi photos to post, but my old camera did not work with my new Dell computer, so I have to save them for another day. But, everything that I have said is easily confirmed by visiting your local Bayliner dealer and seeing for yourself. Or, for some of you, just by looking at your own boat.
There's no reason for me to make anything up. There's no alterior motive for me. The facts are the facts.
If I had to buy a new boat today, I would probably pass on the Bayliners for now. Hopefully they will continue to improve their products and sell more boats. But maybe not...Brunswick might just be happy with the current numbers compared to their investment and will leave things just the way that they are. Who knows??? They still have BW as their "top tier" brand, so in order to serve the masses, they need a lesser priced brand to sell. Bayliner serves that need well.
If bringing out the facts is bashing, then so be it. Accuse me of it. But I feel the facts should be told, so folks that don't know what they're getting into can make an educated decision about what they're buying (above and beyond the brochure and advertising hype that is so easy to fall for). Isn't that what THT stands for??? The truth. You have to take the bad with the good.
Unfortunately, some folks here take offense to the truth. They're in denial. But that's OK. To each his own.
I don't pay for your boat, and you don't pay for mine, so in the end, all is good.
Go out and enjoy your boat. No matter what brand it is. Does a brand name really matter??? I don't think so. I know for sure that the brand of your boat doesn't make you a better (or worse) person.
I then hopped aboard the new 1902. Sorry, this one doesn't come close to being classified as a mid-tier boat. How could you say it does with what I saw. For instance...The hull and deck joints were secured (and I use that term loosely) with pop rivets. I did see screws holding the rubrail on, but they did not penetrate all the way through the hull/deck joint.
While I have no opinion on the boat you are describing in general, don't knock pop rivets. Check out the specs on pop-rivets and compare them to machine screws. The pop-rivets are a much better fastener. (I had the same view that you did about 40 years ago and was corrected by an engineering professor !)
My first hand experience with pop-rivets was with a buddy's Reinell. He approached the fuel dock a little too fast and bang...The damage was a few scrapes, and about a three foot section of the hull and deck separated because the pop-rivets let go. Actually, it was an easy fix, but it sure showed me the value of alternate bolts and screws with adhesive for that joint.
Thanks for the report. I think you are exaggerating a bit thought. The wiring is the main thing that would concern me, that would definitely need to be fixed. Just curious, did you mention to the salesman that you pulled the wiring loose? I doubt very seriously that a bow rail would flex 2", mine is the same construction on my 2302 and if you attempted to move it that much it would rip out of the deck. If you can see through a composite panel 3/8" thick you are superman. And what are we comparing here, Reinell to Trophy, give me a break. The seats may not be the most expensive but mine have held up well for 6 years. That's kind of nitpicking along with some of your other comments. Too bad you can't post the pictures, I would like to see them.
ABoater...your thorough review says it all! Not bashing at all. I have always known Bayliner (Trophy) as an entry level boat. I think someone said: "...a rose by any other name would still smell like a rose!" (Or something like that.) I have no problem with that.
I do have a problem with owners of same saying: "Look at that idiot with the Boston Whaler, Requlator, Contender, Pursuit, etc. that paid three times what I paid, for a boat as good as mine." As Ferrari use to sayin their ads; "...for those who know the difference!"
__________________
Boston Whaler, "MUMBLER", 24 Outrage, twin 175 HP Evinrude Ocean Pros
I do have a problem with owners of same saying: *"Look at that idiot with the Boston Whaler, Requlator, Contender, Pursuit, etc. that paid three times what I paid,* for a boat as good as mine."* As Ferrari use to say*in their ads; "...for those who know the difference!"**
I agree, you can't compare a Trophy to a Regulator.
Mumbler...I'm suprised at you. I've never seen you get involved in one of these discussions before. As far as the Trophy people, personally I've never read one of them make a claim as to any comparison to Regulator, Contender, Pursuit or Whaler. Those are fine boats in the top tier. Most all owners state that the Trophy is a mid tier boat similar in quality to Sea Swirl, Wellcraft, Proline, et al. As far as if someone spent too much, that would be a personal choice. If I had the disposable cash I certainly would own a Grady or something in the top tier. But I don't and my Trophy works well for me.
Now as for Aboater's review. He seems stuck on some things that really don't mean much to me (other than the wiring) but could to someone else. First he mentions a plastic dash board. I'm not too familiar with the 1902/1952 other than I crawled in one at one show last year when they came out. The dash from what I remember was brushed aluminum like the one in the following picture from Trophy's site.
If they changed it then it must be for 2006 but the picture tends to show otherwise. As for the gap, I hope he brought that to the dealers attention. Mine is a nice tight fit. The dash in my prior 1802 was a nice tight fit. All I've seen are a nice tight fit but then again, I've only been over them at the dealer and a few shows.
As for the wiring. Again, my personal experience is limited to my two boats and what I've seen at the dealer. Both of my boats had the wiring labled at both ends, color coded and the crimping was done tight enogh that you would have to pull pretty hard to pull a wire out. They do not shrink wrap the ends...and that is something I would like to see. What I've done is as I've added modifications I've redone ends with shrink wrap as I go along. Hey...I didn't buy a Grady so I don't expect the same quality. But it would be nice to have it.
As for cushions in the cabin, yes they are thin. I didn't buy a cruiser. I bought a fishing boat. For the money I saved I can get all the cushions made that I would want...but I don't want any more. I'm sure you could work a deal with the dealer if it's important to you.
And yes, the rug interior is not the best in the world. It's not the worst either. I rather like it. it hides the wiring nice. Speaking of which. If you've ever worked on the wiring you will see that only the overhead light, preinstalled am/fm radio wiriing and the windshield wiper wiring is under the rug. I really don't know how else you would do it for them unless you routed a groove to run the wires. Again, if I use the cabin it's to take a quick nap or to get out of the weather a minute. And for the admiral to use the porta potti. But as I stated, if I wanted a cruiser I would have purchased a cruiser.
The cushions on the port and starboard seats are not vinyl stapled to a board - there is no hard material in them whatsoever. They are rolled at the ends and on some models pleated and snap into place on the seats. They can be unzipped to remove the inside cushion material for cleaning. You can see them here:
As for the rear seat on the 1902/1952, it is an aftermarket seat which folds down. I don't know it's construction but it does not appear to be like Aboater described:
Then again I did not run my hands under it nor did I look under it since I wasn't even considering purchasing the boat.
Now the rear jump seats on my 2052 and my past 1802 are similar to what Aboater described. They are vinyl with cushioning and a wooden bottem. But they DO have the cloth screening that he says should be there and no exposed staples/nails. What Aboater describes shouldn't be and again, he should have brought it to the dealers attention.
One does have to keep in mind that they are jump seats which are secondary. They are made to be removed when not in use. And yes, if installed they do block access to the fish boxes. No big problem there. If I have four people onboard, two can sit there while underway and then we remove the cushions and put them in the cabin when fishing.
Of course an annoying complaint would be that the in deck fish boxes on the 2052/2002 do fill with water from washing the boat or rain. Not a big deal since all you have to do is turn on the pumps and drain them but for some people it's annoying. Also, I'm supprised that Aboater did not bring up the fact that on the smaller models the gas tank is not accessable without cutting the deck. That is another "feature" that I don't like but many manufacturers are doing it.
All in all I'm sure Aboater saw the flaws he saw. It's not bashing. I will reserve judgement myself till the next show I attend and take a look for what he described. I know it hasn't been my experience. I hope they've not let their guard down.
Look at that first pic. The entry-level "captain's" lanyard is about to pop off, the boat is going to come to a screeching halt, and throw all the passengers into the water. No Grady White, Whaler, Regulator, Contender, etc. captain would make a rookie move like that!!!
People buy the boat that works for them. I bought a hydrasports lightning 230wa. It's considered a "value" boat by me. It has areas where they cut corners to keep costs down. However, it also has a great cockpit. I bought it because the design was suited for my use. Does this mean I can't afford a more expensive boat? No. Does this mean anyone who bought a more expensive boat wasted thier money? No, maybe it had the features they wanted. Moral: Different boats for different needs. BTW I thoght the trophys and new bayliners were pretty nice for the price and everyday use. I wouldn't run to the canyons in one, but never do.
Lastly, if some guy reached under the dash of any boat I was selling and yanked on the wires he would be escorted off the boat rather quickly!!! (Don't own a Bayliner or Trophy, don't sell them or have any attachment to the marine industry)
There's no reason for me to make anything up. There's no alterior motive for me. The facts are the facts.
Given your past bashing tactics, I wouldn't be so sure. I also believe, like a previous poster, that there is some exaggeration in this "review" (actually pulling wires out of crimped connectors, for instance). It is also not accurate to compare the entire Bayliner brand to the review of one boat. My boat has no pop rivets. My hull to deck joint is screwed and bolted throughout its perimeter. My gauges are Faria and the panels are solid aluminum plate.
My upholstery is not "xmas wrapped", it is skilfully upholstered as I would expect.
My canvas frame is 100% SS, including the connectors. No nylon or plastic.
The engine room is spacious and really is set up well for ease of maintenance. All filters are easily accessible and wiring is both labelled and colour coded. Engines are mounted to SS angle brackets and bolted through the stringers.
However, like mole2, I will reserve judgement on this particular model until I attend the Boat Show this coming week. But ABoater, if you are indeed open to the idea of owning another Bayliner, for Pete's sake look at more than one boat!
If you're gonna show some "fish porn", go all the way and show us the real thing! Post some of YOUR fish!
Strat, your engine room does look pretty roomy for a 30 footer. One thing caught my eye . . . where's the bilge pump(s) located? A lot of companies just leave the center line completely open leaving people to get their shoes wet in bilge water. Other companies put a "grate" over that area so that you can step on a flat, dry surface, yet have immediate access if you need to. It looks like Bayliner actually took it to the next level and built up a glassed platform. Is there a hatch that lifts directly over the bilge pump in that area?
4000, there is a platform to stand on which covers the waste tank. There is about a 1 foot gap at the back, with a "sump" or "well", which contains the aft bilge pump. It is out in the open and quite accessible (like most systems on this model).
As with most boats nowadays, the pump is smaller than I'd like. I will be replacing it with an aftermarket unit. In the meantime, I have a separate high-water float situated 2" above the bilge pump float switch. It's connected to my alarm siren.
Yeah Strat, I have to agree on the framing and mounting of the Bimini top. The frame for the top on my 1802 was all SS as well as all the mounting fittings. They used Sunbrella for the top and back curtains. The deck to hull mounting on both my 1802 and my 2052 are screwed and riveted...not just riveted as ABoater says he saw. They alternate with a screw and then a rivet. It appears that there is either 4200 or 5200 between the joint also. I know that neither of my two Trophys had screws overtightened distorting or damaging the portals. They do use plastic portals and not SS portals on these boats.
I know the model he looked at is the newest model and one I didn't look at except the one time. Maybe we both report back at a future date with what we find.
I don't see a price comparison in this thread. ABoater pointed out things that he didn't think were up to snuff but he didn't adress how much more it would cost to "fix" his concerns in a top tier boat. At what price-point do all of ABoater's concerns go away? 10% more, 20% more, 30% more?
Finish what you started ABoater, tell the Trophy owners how much more they need to spend to make you happy.
I don't see a price comparison in this thread. ABoater pointed out things that he didn't think were up to snuff but he didn't adress how much more it would cost to "fix" his concerns in a top tier boat. At what price-point do all of ABoater's concerns go away? 10% more, 20% more, 30% more?
Finish what you started ABoater, tell the Trophy owners how much more they need to spend to make you happy.
One of the reasons you buy new is so you don't have to fix a lot of stuff. If you fix/upgrade all the stuff on a Bayliner, at the end of the day it is still a Bayliner. If you are going to do that then the argument could be made to buy a 5-10 year old top tier boat and fix all the little things that it probably needs.
__________________ Stratos 2500 wa
Twin 225 Johnsons
What is that sucking sound?
I was just about to close the deal on a 21 Trophy(I ignored everyone and made my own decision) when I asked the salesman about a roller trailer. He told me I would void the warranty.I never got a straight answer why.
I was just about to close the deal on a 21 Trophy(I ignored everyone and made my own decision) when I asked the salesman abou a roller trailer. He told me I would void the warranty.I never got a straight answer why.
Puts point loads on the hull, I think some manufacturers put that in their warranty just cause they can, another way to weasle. If you are gonna keep the boat in a slip you are better off with a bunk trailer. Bunks are ok, you have to go in deeper to load the boat, put the guides on it that stick up out of the water.
__________________ Stratos 2500 wa
Twin 225 Johnsons
What is that sucking sound?
BAYLINER'S TROPHY...WHERE'S THE BEEF??? 
!)
