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Old 11-06-2003, 07:01 PM
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Default surface drives for fish boats?

I was thinking why or why not? Fountain got a 48footer with triple yanmar, surface drives to average 55mph for over 400miles FL to Mexico. There are all kinds of fast outboard powered fish boats that will cruise @40knots but if you go bigger than 38' you would probably need four outboards? when it comes to top diesel powered fish boats builders brag about 30-35knot cruise. Why not 38'-42' center console, forward cuddy cabin, stepped hull, 440-500hp twin yanmars, two speed surface drives? cruise 40-45knots, 30-35gal perhour? Makes the canyons seem a lot closer. Rob
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Old 11-07-2003, 07:06 AM
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Default surface drives for fish boats?

Battle wagons with inboards have the props tucked underneath, Surface drives stick out from the stern quit a distance towards the surface, looks like a line cutter scenario to me. Also, surface drive configurations don't handle that well in reverse. They have their place and that is for speed!
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Old 11-07-2003, 07:27 AM
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Default surface drives for fish boats?

There is no reason at all why not (other than initial cost maybe).

Perfectly plausible to do and in fact some of the pro lobster guys have been doing it for years.



This is 48 ft and crusies @ > 40 knots, with twin 700 hp Cats thru ZF multicruise boxes to the new Zealand sea fury surface drives.



This lil 42 fter cruises again at over 42 knots and is powered by twin 500Hp Iveco (fiats) thru zf boxes to arnesson outdrives.

Compared to 'normal' lobster boats these use about 1/3 - 1/2 the average annual fuel consumption of the rest of the fleet.

Never had a problem catching fish from em, they ain't they greatest in reverse as stated tho - but they will back down on any fish if you can drive them.

It's not like it's new technology.

At the end of the day someone has to fund it is all.

Is that what you really want tho?

Does the fishing you do justify the intial and ongoing costs, if your pulling a million $ worth of lobster every year maybe, but as a recreational fishing boat?

I hope your bank manager is more understanding that mine.

I mean - a set of props - will set you back in excess of 20 grand per prop, AND of you do the hours annually thru silty water and wear em down - you could use a new set each year!

The ZF supershift is probably the box technology you seek.



http://zf-marine.com/index.cfm?CFID=...App=1&&RED=NRU

Cheers!



*
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Old 11-07-2003, 07:49 AM
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Default surface drives for fish boats?

I'm all for surface drives for speed, but as other's have mentioned they have thier place. Surface drives back down like sh*T, you can't spin a boat quickly and the surface drives stick out way-way too much. If you think you can fight a diving big game fish that's trying to shoot under the boat, and keep the line 3-4 feet off the back of the boat around surface drives, please let me know how?
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Old 11-07-2003, 08:32 AM
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Default surface drives for fish boats?

Riprunner, the boat could easly be designed so the deck would over hang the drives. Look were the actual hull ends on the fast out board powered boats. It' stepped way in. If the weight of the out boards were not hanging way back there you could hopefully move the workable cockpit further aft over the drives....
"Surface drives back down like sh*t" riprunner, have you ever backed and outboard down on a game fish? I Hope not!
trouty, thanks for the info. do you know actually how many hours before new props are needed and are there any other big maint. issues.
I think speed has proven its place in fishing. Rob
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Old 11-07-2003, 09:24 AM
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Default surface drives for fish boats?

I'll post my results this spring. I am getting pulsedrives put on my ride (30' Ryborunner). I'm not at all happy with the dealer doing the work since they've made me miss an entire season, but the added efficiency should be worth it. They don't stick out any more than outboards on a bracket
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Old 11-07-2003, 09:41 AM
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Default surface drives for fish boats?

That would be great Rosco. What power and drives did you go with? do you know the cost yet? I mean besides missing a whole season. thanks Rob
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Old 11-07-2003, 09:42 AM
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Default surface drives for fish boats?

Waveguide, if the boat is set up like you stated, and the transom was over the surface drives, it would certainly solve the issues of working over the drives. That would make a surface drive set up a-lot more appealing. I have been on several boats with surface drives and everyone was horrible backing down and working in tight quarters. I suppose a good bow thruster would help. Oh, I have backed down outboards on gamefish, mostly sharks and Blue fin tuna. Outboards are a challenge as well, but much better than surface drives in my opinion.
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Old 11-07-2003, 10:06 AM
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Default surface drives for fish boats?

Waveguide,

I got a great deal on the Ryborunner last summer. I really just wanted the hull. Anyway, it was powered with twin crusaders in a strange jackshaft inboard configuration. Too much hardware for my liking. Anyway, I flew down to Florida to go on some test rides of fish boats rigged with surface drives (39 midnight express). It was impressive. The pulsedrive system has an integrated swim platform and rudders so backing down is a breeze.

Anyway, I am staying with gas power for the time being (new longblock) with the pulsedrive 1250ss dual system. The gas power is cheap and my cruise speed is going from 24kts to 37kts so I'll get a pretty good jump in efficiency. The total costs were steep, but less than the cost of a single 315hp Yanmar. I had to buy a new longblock since one of my engines was reverse rotation. Two ZF-63a trannies, new hi-perf damper plates, and the 1250ss system with new surface props that were $1250 each! Boats are toys anyway right?
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Old 11-07-2003, 10:32 AM
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Default surface drives for fish boats?

riprunner, I think backing down is a problem. I have heard that most surface drives props were set up for top speed. I think they now have more prop designs better suited for cruising and backing down? I know that cleavers on outboards or I/Os don't back down as well as regular recreational props do. If they could get SD's to back down only as well as outboards(outboard on bigger boats) it would be good enough. don't you agree? I fight fish in forward or neutral. Keep the fish away from the outboards and circle. Backing down on fish is for the big inboards in my opinion. thanks for the feed back Rob
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Old 11-07-2003, 11:55 AM
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Default surface drives for fish boats?

Rob,

Goodpoint, most of the outboard boats I have run are center consoles and we fight the fish from the bow, but when you have to back down one one, you can. All of the boats I have been on with sd's have been high performance boats with cleavers, so I guess a prop change would certainly help...I guess you do learn something new everyday.
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Old 11-07-2003, 12:09 PM
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Default surface drives for fish boats?

Florida Sportsman had a dreamboat article about 2 years back on a Doctor out of Ft. Meyers that had a 50ft? center console with twin diesel surface drives. Lots of good info if you can find the article.

Nautico 20 with 2x70hp Suzuki 4 strokes
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Old 11-07-2003, 08:29 PM
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Default surface drives for fish boats?

Sorry for the late reply, what with the time diff -I went to sleep.



Thats one way to have em under the back...outa the way, these are the kiwi sea fury drives - designed to be mounted onto a 45 degree trasom.

On the little 42 fter with Arnessons - theres an alloy mesh duckboard (marlinboard) over the props that allows you to walk out back and fish around the props ...

Of course being surface piercing you can get pretty wet doing so if they are in gear...

As far as backing goes - these things aren't the best to be truthfull

That said, for lobster trapping (at least the way this guy does it) they spend all day every day 8 months a year grappling floats, circling winching traps up and circling (spinning within it's length) to create a flat water "window" using the boats hull, so the skipper can look out the side wheelhouse window and pick the next 'hole' he's going to get the deck hand to throw the trap into.

Many of the bigger boats use colour sounders and set "lines of traps" one after the other, but this is NOT as efficient as setting each one by eye in shallow corals water using the described eye method. Trap numbers are restricted..so making each one count becomes inportant - this little boat with 69 traps has the same catch rate as a larger boat with 88 traps set in 4 lines of 22 traps a day in deeper water wwith a sounder.

My point is all this thing does all day is tight circles around floats, spin in its own length and back down trying to get that trap right into a hole in the coral which might be the opening to a cave full of lobsters.

In my book - thats a LOT like backing down on a big fish...and these craft do it well enough for the pros to choose them for that purpose.

Because of the distances involved and the speed these things can do - they spend about 4 -5 hours a day working which includes travel time and haul / rebait / reset 69 traps and they do it 8 months a year every day...(work it out thats about one trap every 3 mins haul epmpty rebait and reset, the deckhands work like black ants!)

So ~240 days x 5 hours a day = ~1200 hours a year. They replace a set of bronze props every year with about 1/2 inch of dia lost for those hours.

The bronze props are not as expensive as stainless ~ Aus $12000 ea (which at current 70c to the greenback would be ~ $US 8400 ea.)

The stainless last longer (~2 seasons or 2500 - 3000 hours depending on the water your working in) BUT they cost almost double intitially too.

Last year the guy had a set of stainless props that he bought from Sweden, which were worn out after 2.5 seasons, sent to a local stainless prop makers to cast new stainless props locally because they guaranteed they could do them cheaper than the $22000 ea he paid for the original swedish props.

Hesent the correct details as to pitch and dia etc with the order - the worn out props were sent so they could copy the boss pattern.

The idiots cast new props the same as the worn out props i.e a half inch under diameter! i.e. they didn't read the specifications at all...they just copied the worn out props!

Also one of the blades on one prop was cast with a big air bubble inside it, and you could feel it in the blade like an egg.

Of course they weren't accepted and the prop shop was out over 20 grand for their "specially made cheap stainless props"...which no other boat in OZ is set up to use...expensive mistake.

In the end he just got another pair sent from Sweden.

Compared to fuel useage and catch figures the props cost is a minor part of their operating costs.

They would catch ea. about 300 tonnes of Lobster per boat per year (300,000 kilos). Cost per kilo to catch is about Aus $12.50/kilo and beach price is ~ $30.00 a kilo.

That cost oer Kilo to catch includes fuel, bait, labor etc etc...the million dollar boat is an "extra", the 5 or 6 Million $ Lobster License is something you basically have to inherit.

All the same - an "income" of 2/3 $Million a year after expenses is not bad for 8 months work and is the justification for the standard of boats in our lobster fleet. We would have the best resourced lobster fleet anywhere in the world as a result of the $ value of the fishery - thats why a lot of the cutting edge vessel technology shows up in our fleet - they change boats every 3 or 4 years on average and spend about a million bucks each time doing so.

Their used boats find their way into poorer lobster fisherys in Australia's eastern states or new zealand with ready acceptance in these markets because they are relatively modern and low hours (for a lobster boat) and for those guys in the poorer fisheries represent good value.

Many find themselves converted to charter boats or other uses (oil rig tenders, longlining etc).

The reason for all the $ explanations above is, the 'costs involved' in the boat and drive technology can be justified in the value of the catch...but this MAY NOT apply to a recreational fishing boat...unless like the lobster men - your job leaves you with 2/3 a Million $ disposable income after costs each year! (which was what I alluded to in my first post!).

Hope this helps.

P.s. if you do have a job like that, lemme know for crying out loud...coz I'm bleeding from the gills fiscally here!

Cheers!

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Old 11-10-2003, 06:24 PM
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Default surface drives for fish boats?

Thanks for the info. No, that program sounds a little over my fishing budget. I do however think there is a fuel savings to be gained. I think its worth pursuing. Rob
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Old 11-10-2003, 07:29 PM
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Default surface drives for fish boats?

Rob,

While I was doing the Cats breakfast thread hereabouts..I did get to look into the cougar cats website.

They do a REALLY lovelly 40 ft hull with twin sea fury surface drives (back under the sponsons on the 45degree transom), AND the hysucat fiols arrangement on a cat hull...

This would give great economy and range and handling / deckspace etc.

I'm sure you could always ask them about a canyon runner CC configuration with forard cuddy cab, on such a hull, wheres the harm in asking?

Also - the exchange rate is well in your favor.

Cougar build a LOT of the commercial cats hereabouts so are built to survey standard, which means you'd get a heck of a boat.

I'd be keen to hear what answer you got back.

This site might give you some clues HERE

Cheers!


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