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So, just how do you get experience in rough seas conditions? I'm looking at a 18 ft swell coming in this tue. I have a new 21' cuddy cabin runabout. Should I just go out and figure it as I go? Or start in 5 ft swells and try all sorts of different moves to see which you can be forgiven from and which work to better allow navigation from point A to B?
But I do see all sorts of posts where people say to stay in a bay until you get experience. Just how do you get experience if not from putting yourself into a dangerous situation? Put yourself in a marginally dangerous situation?
Are there any books or onine resources on how to best deal with a large swell in a small boat?
We mostly venture into dangerous waters on trips to Catalina. It is usually calm and you can find out in advance of any impending storm action and stay home. But, there are many cases where you hear of people getting caught in a swell or storm that seemed to come from nowhere. I'd like to get more experience though in a safe manner as the consensis is that it's more important , the skipper, than the size of his boat.
What is meant is that you should learn how to handle your boat in good conditions then challenge your self with incrementaly more difficult conditions, or go out with someone who is experienced already and have them back you up.
Good luck!
__________________ I'm not a boat expert, I just read THT!
What is meant is that you should learn how to handle your boat in good conditions then challenge your self with incrementaly more difficult conditions, or go out with someone who is experienced already and have them back you up.
Good luck!
Whether we're talking about rough seas, or any other kind of challenge, I also like very much this principle of always stretching the bounds of difficulty, while also being careful to avoid overreaching, so as to avoid complete failure or disaster. Only you will know how large of steps you can take.
Certainly there are manuals of rough seas handling, and if you know someone else who is actually very good at this, I think you could steal, er, learn a lot by going out with them through some challenging conditions.
__________________ When blithe to argument I come, Though armed with facts and merry; May Providence protect me from, The Fool as adversary. Whose mind to him a kingdom is, Where reason lacks dominion; Who calls conviction prejudice, and prejudice opinion.... ;-)
If you put yourself in a "marginally dangerous situation", I would hope it would be an accident. Any wind forecast at 15kts or greater, stay at the dock. 21' is a small boat.
When I first took posseion of my 24fter, I stayed within the bay around the Sandy Hook NJ area. Fairly safe, most afternoons you get a stiff SE breeze that kicks up the bay. I eventually ventured out further until I had a good feel of the boat and how it handled. Alway made sure I had the proper safety gear, gas etc. Eventually I took my boat 70 miles south toward LBI NJ in open ocean and bay. Not bad on the way down, but my worst fears were realized when my vacation was over and I had to take her back. The wind was blowing for several days out of the east at 20kts creating 8 ft breakers in the inlet I needed to get out of in order to get home. I anchored up until they died down and went thru 6fters out of the inlet and thru 4- 6ft swells the remaining 30 miles back. To say I learned my boat that week is an understatement. But without my initial breakin period who knows how it would have gone. I am still a novice but feel comfortable trying new things as long as I am prepared.
burndog,
18' swells sound real scary. In the link you provided it shows a fairly long interval (or period) between swells which is the often overlooked part of how "rough" it really is. 6 or 8' swells with a 15 second interval is nothing more than driving on a hilly highway. 6 to 8' cresting (usually shown as VERY_STEEP in the forecast) waves with a 5 or 6 second period are downright dangerous. There's more to determining roughness than wave height. Here's a link to some weather buoy observations near me http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=44025 if you scroll down to the "Detailed Wave Summary" you will sell a data row called "Wave Steepness" this tells you how rough those 6 or 8' or whatever waves are going to be. Being from the east coast I can't really tell you how "rough" those 18' swells are going to make it by you given the forecasted 16 second intervals shown in your link. I can see how it would make it very interesting and dangerous transiting an inlet where the water gets shallow making those swells stand up a little...
Anyone that intentionally puts themselves in a "marginally" dangerous situation is a fool. You should be able to tell by that comment that I have been in a "marginally" dangerous situation. The only difference between "marginally" dangerous and a catastrophe is how the captain handles the situation.
I can't imagine any competent captain seeking out more difficult situations to put himself in, so he can be a better captain? Good captains sit their ass home if there is any chance safety is compromised at all, reading about the unfortunate captains experiences so if you are faced with the same situation, you know what to do.
My case, summer afternoon, on a cruise from Charleston to Beaufort SC. Came out of the ICW into St. Helena Sound and was faced with one of those nasty PM thunderstorms roaring straight down the sound. There are no houses (docks), bridges, etc. to take any cover under. Instead of heading up the sound right into the storm, I headed out to sea. At 40MPH I couldn't out run the storm - I was staying even with the edge. Thankfully, when the storm cleared the sound, it turned and headed towards Edisto. Once I saw it made the turn, I found shallow enough water to anchor in (~50 ft.), hunkered down, blew the horn every 30 sec., and got a little wet. We avoided the main thunderhead, and ended up continuing to Beaufort once it passed. Had my wife and 2 couples on the boat, and it scared the sh!t out of all of us.
The use of the term marginally can be subjective. As is the term "fool".... I was thinking that I woudl take the boat out when conditions were rough and work my way into larger swells with the harbor close at hand. The idea of never testing yourself leaves you to only learn at a time that is not of your choosing. I'd prefer to be alone or with a buddy that can swim well. Not out with the family and suddenly need to learn how to deal with water coming over the bow and or positioning myself properly on a swell so as to minize the amount of water coming in while making sure everyone else onboard is staying safe.
I've got a boat that is self draining (Chaparral 215SSi) but those couple holes that are only 3/4 of an inch will in no way bail as fast as you would need in nasty conditions.
Granted, I only want to go to Catalina (36 miles away) but that channel can get nasty and I would prefer to have more experience than have to learn on the spot. Bottomline is that I would like to have the experience, and then never need to use it because of properly using the weather charts and broadcasts to make sure that on family outtings we are in no way heading into any unsafe condition. Actually the last time we went to Catalina we had plans that if the weather changed, I would have my wife and son fly back on the helicopter and I would stay until the weather changed back to a safe condition.
This is kind of like taking your car to a wet, icy, or snowy lot, and checking out the turning and breaking in out of control winter driving conditions without the risk of damaging yourself or car. IMO this gives me an understanding of how the car is going to behave and a best course of action if I hit an ice patch on a clover leaf exit at 45mph at night (happened to me), etc.
Same thing with the boat. I do it in as safe and controlled a manner as possible, but I want to know that if I get caught out in 5-7' steep seas w/ 30kt winds because of a thunderstorm, or early front arrival (has happened to me a couple of times) , that I could make it back in a head, following, and beam sea condition.
Its interesting how difficult some things get: maintaining a bearing, reading an instrument, finding the right speed and trim, modulating the throttles, etc. It also tells your body and mind how it feels to drop off the back of a true 7' wave, and might train you how to stand and hold on...or tell you that you shouldn't keep your hand on the binnacle a certain way when you land off of a wave becuase you will jam the throttle forward due to the shock of impact... or tell you your bimini top really can't handle those condtions. If you lose power in bad seas w/ 30kt winds, and the water is too deep to anchor in, are you prepared? Do you know what it feels like? How will your boat drift in these conditions: beam, stern quatering, etc.? If you can anchor, how much scope do you have let out in 70' of water to stay put? Do you have enough? Do you know what it feels like to go up to the bow of your boat and deploy an anchor, or splice a line, or even tie a knot in rough seas?
I would think that the a hired Captain/Instructor, USCG, and/or the Power Squadrons would have hands on rough water instruction available if you wanted the safest and best way to get the experience.
Fortunately or unfortunately, most people accidentally get this experience and survive, but some are left with scars that can change boating for them forever, some are even less fortunate.
If you do decide to test your limits some, maintain VHF contact w/ someone that can help, have your safety stuff at hand and be wearing a pfd, lanyard etc. Be prepared to get wet. Don't try anything radically stupid like backing down into a 12' breaker.
TG_190 - 12/14/2005 6:52 PM
This is kind of like taking your car to a wet, icy, or snowy lot, and checking out the turning and breaking in out of control winter driving conditions without the risk of damaging yourself or car.
I was thinking the same thing.
__________________ When blithe to argument I come, Though armed with facts and merry; May Providence protect me from, The Fool as adversary. Whose mind to him a kingdom is, Where reason lacks dominion; Who calls conviction prejudice, and prejudice opinion.... ;-)
Lots of good points.. Thank you. I like the idea of doing a ride-along with the local Harbor Patrol on a rough night/day if that is possible. Otherwise hiring a hotdog crusty sea captain to take MY boat out and show me what it can take does not sound as good as me taking it out, close to harbor and then running back if I get scared or half filled with water. And talking about jumping waves, I've already learned that my boat lands nothing like my dirt bike from a jump of the same hieght.
Location: Los Angeles, FL.or Georgia, depends. In Fl now.
Posts: 5,979
RE: Rough Seas Experience
I used to sail to Catalina on a 30' Cal. One time I forgot my wallet when I got there. Jumped in the 15' Whaler and went back full throttle to Long Beach to get my wallet. After that I sold the sailboat and just went to Catalina on the whaler.
First time there follow the Catalina ferry.
Get a GPS. Catalina is often surrounded by thick fog. I got lost in it many times and had to go back and forth to find someone with radar to follow in.
The only thing to worry about is a Santa Ana bursting forth while you are in Avalon. The waves can get to 12 - 15' in the harbor. They also break inside the harbor which can make it rather nasty as they go all the way into main street and sometime beyond.
The large swells are not a problem as they have a long fetch. If breaking at inlet stay inside. If not you can go out. Depends on wich way they flow. Flowing south with winds under 15knots is usually ok as long as fetch is over 30'.
I once had to take my Col 22 back to Marina Del Rey and sailed out with 20' to 25' swells and 40k winds ( weather station at Catalina/Harbormaster) coming out of the South. When blowin from SW Avalon is protected so swells build up slowly as you leave the lee o the island. It was scary but the fetch was over 40' so it was like being in a cork in the ocean. I managed to surf the boat all the way to inlet. SAiled her in on the mini jib. GEtting into MDR was the problem as the waves were breaking over the inlet. I got pooped after surfing into the inlet. Good thing I had 2 electric pumps. The Col 22 had a hole on floor that was 16x16 for outboard but I had mine on stern. Water got out through motor well. It was scary. (I had a business to run and a store to open next day and had to leave no matter what.)
Chop is the biggest problem. Too close together can flood your boat. As long as its Pacific swells you are okay. You'll feel like a cork though.
As some have mentioned, inlets are the most dangerous places to be in a boat. Once I was anchored outside Sebastian Inlet in Fl fishing. It was a really nice day and not windy at all. Unfortunately the seemingly harmless swells turned into standing 6' waves when the tide changed to outgoing. I had 3 choices none of which were good. I could spend the night outside the inlet, I could go north 40 mi to Port Canaveral or I could run it. I was alone and the boat was insured so I decided to head in. I could try to run it on plane but since the breakers were about 20 apart, same as the boat, I feared pitch-poling or going end over end. I went in just making headway when a wave started pushing me into a broach, or pushing me sideways and rolling the boat. Luckily the wave did not have enough punch to roll me over, and I made it through. Looking back, I should have applied enough power while turning to keep the boat straight. Chapmans Seamanship book will explain a lot of this. The best advice is to take it slow and if you go offshore get a raft and an Epirb. By the way welcome to the forum and good luck.
solarfry,
That's funny, jumped into the 15' and headed back.... Those Boston Whalers are unsinkable.
I have GPS, I even thought of getting a radar as we ran into fog on the first trip to Catalina. My Mechanic thinks I would be too "Mc Givered out" to add a wake tower just to gain a radar location and squid lights
I'll just wait the 5 years till my wife agrees to a new, bigger boat.
As Solar fry has pointed out, the rare time you will have extremely rough conditions is in Santa Winds--and occasionall North Westerly Gales between Catalina and the Mainland. The Catalina Channel is some of the easiest and safest boating on the U S coast--but do not underestimate it.
The only breaking bars you might encounter would be Ventura or Oceanside--(I am a little confused by your 36 miles to Catalina--the generally accepted natical distance is about 26 from LA gap or Long Beach--and 18 miles from Pt Ferman to Arrow Point.
However you don't want to put yourself in breaking bar condtions ever. You wil not find harbor patrol boats in S. Calif doing that either. The harbor patrol boats are not motor life boats or surf boats.
Just on on with life, enjoying what is given to you--and you will be fine. Depending on the boat a 21 footer can do fine in the Catalina Channel--but I would not take it to Santa Rosa or San Miguel Islands.
I think you learn mostly by accident. By being caught in storms, wind vs tide situations. I learned by all of those, and in the early years by boating relatively big water in small boats, like rowboats in coastal NJ. Learing how to handle wind chop, wakes, etc, and then being in more serious situations in larger craft. Some of them *did* change my boating forever, as TG_190 mentions above. Mostly it was offshore fishing where I've had "learning opportunities". There were a couple hairy boat deliveries, both on mine and others.
Like a moth to a flame, offshore fishing still lures me, albeit, more cautiously these days.
__________________
Boston Whaler 210 Ventura, 225 Verado
Hi Bob,
It's 37 miles from the Dana Point Harbor to Avalon. And you're right those Santa Ana's are the ones to wach out for. Those are the wamest , most enticing days when Catalina only looks like it's a couple miles away. I guess in conditions like that you can always hide on the backside of the island and moor in two harbors until the wind subsides.
From Catalina, it's another 24 miles to San Clemente Island. I would love to go there for some fishing and exploring but will have to wait for the bigger boat or a couple seasons experience.
Just take your time and put in your hours. If you do, trust me, you'll eventually see plenty of conditions that you will wish that you hadn't...and you'll get your "rough seas" exposure that way.
Every time you use your boat, you're going to learn a little more, whether you're in challenging waters or not. Don't be too eager for that YZ250 until you have your training wheels off.
To intentionally challenge the sea gods by purposely putting yourself in a marginal situation is just stupid IMHO. You don't need to SEEK danger – trust me, it'll find you, and better later than sooner.
Rough Seas Experience 
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